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mary rosenblum
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Hello all.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a good week.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about critique
groups. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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If any of you missed my
interview with Rhonda Penders of Wild Rose Press last night, it's worth
checking out if you write Romance.
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mary rosenblum
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They're an idealistic
publisher that is very willing to work with new writers...
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mary rosenblum
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and they offer a wide array of
subgenres, although they really are publishing romance.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about writers
groups and critique groups a bit today
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mary rosenblum
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They're so very useful, but
they can be a negative influence on your writing a well...
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mary rosenblum
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so it pays to be a tough
consumer. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the writers
conferences offer a writers workshop in conjunction with the conference,
usually for an extra fee to cover mailing and distribution.
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mary rosenblum
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And they can be a real double
edged sword!
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mary rosenblum
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Just because someone is a
published pro does NOT mean that person is a good critic or able teacher!
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mary rosenblum
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And the tendency is to believe
that since he/she is published he/she must KNOW.
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mary rosenblum
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Many writers have VERY narrow
opinions about what is 'good' and 'bad' in fiction or their genre...
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mary rosenblum
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so if you get something
extreme....don't necessarily believe it unless two other readers give you
the same feedback.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's talk a bit about what
makes a good critique.
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mary rosenblum
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What is it that you, the
critiquer, are trying to do?
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mary rosenblum
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What you're doing when you
critique a story is to help this author tell THIS story as well as it can
be told.
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mary rosenblum
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You may want that author to
tell a different story.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's not what the author
wants to do. So work on THIS story rather than telling that person to
change it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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By change it, I mean change it
in a huge, sweeping, plot manner, not fix problems. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If that author is telling a
love story and you think it would make a much better father/son story,
fine. YOU write the father/son story.
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mary rosenblum
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Work on making this love story
stronger. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about critique
groups. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to start with
what I call 'first read comments' as you read through a manuscript.
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mary rosenblum
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Make notes in the margin: Who?
What? Why? Where? I'm lost!
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mary rosenblum
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These are helpful to the
writer since this is where you had questions. Maybe she answered that
question in the next paragraph, but this is where you, the reader,
wondered.
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mary rosenblum
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Does the character seem
consistent?
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mary rosenblum
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Did you understand why he/she
said and did the things he/she did?
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mary rosenblum
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If not, put a question in the
margin.
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mary rosenblum
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It's very easy to think that
you're making your character's actions transparent. It is much harder to
actually make them transparent...
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mary rosenblum
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and we all know our characters
and stories FAR too well.
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mary rosenblum
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So we miss things...we know
what happens. We need our critiquers to tell us 'uh uh, that's a hole'.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't , don't, don't forget to
tell the writer what he/she has done well.
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mary rosenblum
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That writer may have no clue
that his description is really vivid and powerful.
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mary rosenblum
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How will he know if you don't
tell him?
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mary rosenblum
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So.
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mary rosenblum
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What should you expect from
your critque group or critquer?
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mary rosenblum
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All of the above.
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mary rosenblum
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Critiques sting. Nobody ever
wants to hear that his/her story is not perfect. No, I don't want to hear
it either. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But of course it's NOT
perfect, and I know my story and my characters FAR too well to have any
questions about what is happening.
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mary rosenblum
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But my readers may well wonder
about things.
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mary rosenblum
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And I need the clear eyes of
my critiquers to point at holes and places where I didn't make myself
clear.
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mary rosenblum
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When you give your story to a
group or an individual to read you want to avoid two things.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't want to do
everything that your critiquers suggest...that'll ruin your story for sure!
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mary rosenblum
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And you don't want to
'explain' every comment and do none of them.
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myshell
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Are you or have you been part of
a critique group?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, many, myshell.
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mary rosenblum
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I would never send out
anything without out comments from at least three different people...
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mary rosenblum
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and I have belonged to a
variety of groups over the years.
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mary rosenblum
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By explain every comment, I
mean that you say, 'oh but that's because'...
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mary rosenblum
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and don't change anything. :-)
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myshell
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Even as experienced as you are,
you find a group necessary ?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, my. I see a LOT
more than I did when I was a novice,that's for sure. But as I said, I'm WAY
too involved...
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mary rosenblum
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with my story. It all is clear
and obvious to ME, but I know everything.
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mary rosenblum
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A reader may not see
everything I think that reader will see, or make the leaps I expect readers
to make...
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mary rosenblum
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so I want someone who doesn't
know the story to read it. And tell me any place they go 'huh'?
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mary rosenblum
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I don't have as many 'huh?'s
as many of you may...
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myshell
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I figured I just felt that was
being a novice and insecure.
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mary rosenblum
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I know of almost no
professional writers who do not give their work to a few readers, my.
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mary rosenblum
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You simply can't see the
weaknesses without putting that mss aside for weeks or months to 'cool
off'...
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mary rosenblum
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and when you're making your
living doing this, you don't want that mss on the shelf for weeks or
months!
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tory
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I'm laughing aabout needing
crituqe groups,Mary. Even my critique group was so familiar with my the
story on my sequel that they missed the fact I had left the reader clueless
as to where the story was set. That took fresh eyes.
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mary rosenblum
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ah, and this is one weakness
of critique groups....
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mary rosenblum
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They do become familiar after
a time.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless you bring in new
people, they get to know your voice and your habits of prose...
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mary rosenblum
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and you lose some of that
freshness.
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geezer
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In a SS I had 3 hours + the tide
coming in and going out. To me that's 15 hrs. ALL my readers thought only 3
hours had passed.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's one of the values
of a group, geeze. To you, a 'tide' is twelve hours. To many readers who do
not live by the sea, they simply...
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mary rosenblum
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think of 'tide' as waves. And
therefore three hours.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are an expert in
something, too familiar with it, it's easy to confuse readers.
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myshell
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How do we find a reputable
online group?
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myshell
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Especially for children's
author's?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can try googling, you can
look for ads in newsletters or writers websites.
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mary rosenblum
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You can simply START one.
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mary rosenblum
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You're all welcome to use the
private room feature in the chat room here to meet and do a live chat
discussion.
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mary rosenblum
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Send the stories out via email
ahead of time...
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mary rosenblum
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and give your comments in live
chat.
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mary rosenblum
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But give some thought to
groups before you join one.
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mary rosenblum
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What do you expect from a
group? What SHOULD you expect from a group?
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mary rosenblum
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You want feedback that helps
you strengthen your story.
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mary rosenblum
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If you get some good insights
from at least some members of the group, good.
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mary rosenblum
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If none of the people in the
group read the type of fiction your write and only tell you a: they don't
read it so don't know how to critique it, or b: tell you to write something
different...
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mary rosenblum
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you're probably wasting your
time.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's always negative, try
not to run over anyone as you bolt for the door!
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mary rosenblum
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Some groups pride themselves
on a 'no pain no gain' mantra and deliver harsh, negative comments.
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mary rosenblum
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As I said...try not to leave
footprints on anyone as you leave.
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mary rosenblum
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thorough does not equal
negative.
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mary rosenblum
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And negative does not equal
good.
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mary rosenblum
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If you constantly leave
inspired, ready to work...that's good.
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mary rosenblum
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If you leave wondering why
you're even trying...just don't go to the next meeting or ever again.
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mary rosenblum
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The group has to work for
YOU>
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lore alley
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I've started a local group,
Mary, and was wondering if you can give suggestions for making it a good
one :-)
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mary rosenblum
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There are some things that
seem to work well to create long lived groups.
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mary rosenblum
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A wide variety of members is
good. Everyone has his/her own blind spots, and the more people you
include, the wider the range of comments you will get.
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mary rosenblum
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Some critiquing rules will
help keep you on track.
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mary rosenblum
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Set a time limit for every
critique, or the long winded will keep you there all night!
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mary rosenblum
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Enforce the time limit. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Have people read the story
ahead of time and write comments on the mss, so that they only need to 'hit
the high points' at the session.
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mary rosenblum
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most groups distribute the
next session's stories when they meet, or you can email them to others at
least a few days before the meeting.
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mary rosenblum
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Come up with a few rules.
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mary rosenblum
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How long a submission can you
present? A whole novel or a chapter at a time?
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mary rosenblum
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Make clear 'rules of
etiquette' and enforce them, too.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to require
the person whose story is being critiqued to be silent until everyone is
done...
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mary rosenblum
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and then that person has a set
amount of time to rebut. Otherwise, you can bog down the sesion with
endless...
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mary rosenblum
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'but what I was trying to do
was...' rebuttals.
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mary rosenblum
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Many long lived groups have an
application process...
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mary rosenblum
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where the applicant must sit
out at least one session and say nothing, so that person gets a sense...
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mary rosenblum
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of how the group operates.
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mary rosenblum
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Then he/she contributes a
story and it is critiqued.
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mary rosenblum
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And only then does the
applicant find out if he/she has been accepted.
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mary rosenblum
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That way, you don't end up
with someone who dissolves into tears when critiqued, who writes at a
level...
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mary rosenblum
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taht is out of keeping with
the group, or who delivers a really nasty critique. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You and your applicant have
time to decide if this is going to work.
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lore alley
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if we pass out mss, should I
make some "rules" clear, like don't pass others' mss around to
random people, post them on a website, etc? not sure if everyone there is
clear on that
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mary rosenblum
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It is a good idea not to post
mss on public websites...your rights can be compromised that way.
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mary rosenblum
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As to passing them around, you
can make that rule. Remember you own that copyright when you hit save...
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mary rosenblum
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But it depends on whether you
worry about who others will pass mss to .
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charie'
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Are there limits to how many
times you can submit a 'fixed' mss for critique?
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mary rosenblum
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That's a rule you can make if
you choose...one revision only ,say.
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mary rosenblum
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In our current off and on
group, if someone wants to submit a revise and it's LONG, that person asks
if others mind.
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cosmos
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How do you make the copyright
sign on your computer?
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mary rosenblum
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You don't need a copyright
sign, cosmos. And that's only appropriate if you register the copyright.
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mary rosenblum
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The copyright is automatic.
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mary rosenblum
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You only need to register it
if you believe that you may be involved in a lawsuit over it one day.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, theft of written
work is very very rare.
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mary rosenblum
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One thing I have found over
the years...
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mary rosenblum
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it is a very good idea to have
one or a few people who 'run' the group.
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mary rosenblum
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You can elect them formally or
it can be the person who starts the group.
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mary rosenblum
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But having a clear
'leadership' makes it easier to set and enforce those rules and to handle
interpersonal tensions.
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mary rosenblum
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It is very hard to ask someone
to leave a group. Hurt feelings result.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why, especially if your
group is big and gaining a lot of local attention, an application process
is a good idea.
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mary rosenblum
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We have a very long lived well
organized group down in Eugene. They have a formal application process and
it has served them very well.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a BIG group, too.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about critique
groups. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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One issue with groups is
genre.
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mary rosenblum
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There are benefits to mixing
genres, but drawbacks, too.
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mary rosenblum
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If your critiquer doesn't read
in your genre...including NF here...he/she won't give the most accurate
critique.
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mary rosenblum
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But you get different
perspectives. :-)
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tory
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Our group really benefits from
having a few men. Really helps get the male POV more accurate.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes. I don't think I've
ever belonged to a group that didn't mix genders.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, feedback on your
male or female POV is very useful. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Expertise is a big benefit of
critiquers.
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mary rosenblum
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I often give a mss to someone
who has expertise in a particular field.
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mary rosenblum
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A retired cop used to read my
mysteries and tell me if I got my 'cop talk' right. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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An ex military friend reads
any of my fiction that uses military or military organizations.
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mary rosenblum
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A physicist reads my hard SF
and catches me on my science from time to time (but not very often).
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mary rosenblum
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When you meet someone who
likes to read the type of story you write and has a useful area of
expertise...
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mary rosenblum
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ask that person if he/she
would read a mss, and offer an aknowledgement in exchange.
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mary rosenblum
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That's what aknowedgment pages
are fore.
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writermom
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Hi I know I'm late and I hope no
one has asked this I just had an agent agree to rep me but before they
start they want me to pay for a critique is this common practice
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mary rosenblum
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No, it's rather the earmark of
a scam, writer. I'm sorry.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of scam agents will do
that, and split the fee with the critiquer.
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mary rosenblum
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Is this agent a member of AAR?
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mary rosenblum
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Association of Author's
Representatives?
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mary rosenblum
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Same thing with an 'agent' who
tells you that you should pay a 'book doctor' to fix your book.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of scammers present
themselves as agents.
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writermom
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I haven't actually talked to the
agent yet I was working with called New York Litererary Agents
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mary rosenblum
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Writer, I just went to
Predators and Editors and looked them up.
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mary rosenblum
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Here is what I found.
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mary rosenblum
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New York Literary Agency, The:
Strongly not recommended. Also a Top Twenty worst according to Writer
Beware. A literary agency. A division of The Literary Agency Group.
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mary rosenblum
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Always look up any
editor/agent/publisher on Predators and Editors.
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mary rosenblum
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They constantly update it.
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mary rosenblum
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predators and editors
webpage
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writermom
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so I should find a way to get
out of it
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mary rosenblum
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Just write them a letter and
say you are withdrawing the mss.
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mary rosenblum
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Send it registered mail.
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mary rosenblum
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They'll get the message.
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foxx
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Do you pay for critiques or
reading?
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mary rosenblum
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No, I never have, foxx.
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mary rosenblum
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Why?
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mary rosenblum
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If you know a professional who
has done good things for the work of someone you know, then paying a pro
editor may work for you...
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mary rosenblum
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if you really need it but do
you?
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mary rosenblum
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Lots of other novice writers
exist who need to swap critiques. :-0
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mary rosenblum
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-)
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mary rosenblum
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Those are free. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I do occasionally send a
student to a reputable professional editor, but only when they are not
English speakers and have a good story...
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mary rosenblum
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that simply needs language
editing.
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mary rosenblum
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I've only done that once or
twice.
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geezer
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Could you tell the differences
between "reading" and "critique"?
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mary rosenblum
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Semantics.
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mary rosenblum
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A critique...by whatever
name...is a list of comments from someone who read the work critically...ie
looking for strengths and weaknesses.
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idwins
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Any drawback to having your
spouse critique for you?
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mary rosenblum
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Welll...just how much DO you
value your marriage? LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Nothing if it works.
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mary rosenblum
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I do know a couple of writers
whose spouse is their first reader and critquer.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's negative, if it's a
means to put you down. Don't go there.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't forget, you have an
intense personal relationship with this person, and writing is a very
personal thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Other agendas may enter into
the equation.
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geezer
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I count the number of yawns as
my hubby reads. If it's under three I figure it's OK.
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mary rosenblum
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LOL.
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charie'
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My husband is a good critiquer
but it is harder to accept his comments as impersonal.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's the real issue. You
have that personal relationship and it's harder not to react personally to
those comments.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's Jack from the critique
group, his comments may sting for a bit, but what do you really care? He's
a fat jerkafter all. :-)
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idwins
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Isn't it awsome when they LOVE
it though?
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mary rosenblum
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It's awesome when ANY reader
loves it! that's why I DO this.
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charie'
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Another etiquette tip for a
group is to make certain you only critique the mss. not the author
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mary rosenblum
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Good point, charie.
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mary rosenblum
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Especially if the author
expresses political and social opinions you don't agree with, it's easy to
let that sentiment bleed into your comments.
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mary rosenblum
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It is quite hard to be
objective if you strongly disagree with something that the author
expresses, particularly...
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mary rosenblum
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a social or political stance
that you find highly objectionable.
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mary rosenblum
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In that case, recuse yourself.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm sorry, I just won't be
able to do a good job here.
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mary rosenblum
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End of comment.
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charie'
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Don't bring up points from past
mss unless it shows a trend in the author's works
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mary rosenblum
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Yes. The only work under
consideration is THIS one..
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mary rosenblum
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Unless, as charie says, you
see a trend. (Did you realize the guys in your stories always get bitten by
a dog?)
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mary rosenblum
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And...a really subtle but
really really important caveat.
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mary rosenblum
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If you find yourself writing
for the group rather than the reader...time to quit.
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mary rosenblum
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It is very easy to start
writing work that your critque group loves.
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mary rosenblum
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Great praise.
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mary rosenblum
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But are they selling? Are you
improving as a writer?
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mary rosenblum
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I don't tend to stay in groups
very long, unless they get a lot of turnover in members.
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mary rosenblum
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Pretty soon I already know
what every person will say before I even sit down with 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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And then it's time to move on.
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mary rosenblum
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although I must say, I find
that in -person groups, either in reality or in a live chat situation...
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mary rosenblum
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tend to be more valuable than
by-mail exchanges.
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mary rosenblum
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You have the synergy of the
group mind.
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mary rosenblum
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One person suggests something,
another adds to that, and you get something entirely new...
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mary rosenblum
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that neither person might have
exactly suggested on his /her own.
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lore alley
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completely off topic but... is
there anything Wrong with trends?? I have an embarrassing lot of them...
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mary rosenblum
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What do you mean by trends,
lore?
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lore alley
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I write about a lot of
medical-type trauma... or brothers... or kids who end up with PTSD...
things like that
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if enough of them end up
published, a reviewer or two will probably comment on them, but if readers
like them, that's fine.
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mary rosenblum
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Reviewers love to notice your
trends and comment on them. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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We ALL have trends.
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mary rosenblum
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If you read a lot of stuff by
the same author you'll find that writer's little personal idiosyncracies.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Copy editors are even worse
than reviewers at telling you what you do regularly. LOL
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mary rosenblum
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One place to look for writers
groups...
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mary rosenblum
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is on your library's bulletin
board.
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mary rosenblum
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Many libraries offer free
meeting rooms for groups like that...
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mary rosenblum
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Another place is a writers
organization.
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mary rosenblum
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Willamette Writers here in
Portland publishes a member newsletter and people announce writers
groups...
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mary rosenblum
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either new ones or simply
meeting times for groups that are open to new members.
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mary rosenblum
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Sma.
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mary rosenblum
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Small bookstores, the
independents, often have bulletin boards with...
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mary rosenblum
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book and writing news on them
and you may find group information there.
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mary rosenblum
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OR...make a flyer and post it
in those places.
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mary rosenblum
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Find a library meeting room
you can use and start one.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing else, make friends
with folk here and swap stuff.
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mary rosenblum
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Giving your work to three or
four different readers won't give you the group synergy, but you'll get
three or four critiques.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll get your best feedback
from other writers, but a critical reader, one who has opinions about waht
he/she has read...
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mary rosenblum
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makes a good critiquer too.
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mary rosenblum
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I give all my mysteries to the
owner of a mystery bookstore to read. If I can keep her guessing until the
end, it's ready to go out. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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She doesn't help much with
craft, but she's great on the clues and red herrings!
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mary rosenblum
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A good critiquer or three will
do more to improve your writing quickly...
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mary rosenblum
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than nearly anything else you
can do.
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mary rosenblum
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And critiquing another's
writing forces you to pay attention to how that person is writing...
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mary rosenblum
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and you'll find you can see
problems in someone else's work before you can see those same problems in
your own.
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mary rosenblum
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The only thing that has
improved my writing more than critiquing has been teaching writing. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well this has been a fun
Oregon Hour.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us Sunday for our
casual chat.
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mary rosenblum
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Same time same place.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all!
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mary rosenblum
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I''ll post the transcript in
the usual place.
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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