Forum Transcripts

Trimming Extra Words 5/12/06

Event start time:

Fri May 12 19:07:00 2006

Event end time:

Fri May 12 20:43:57 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all.

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a great week!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about tightening prose tonight....just because it's something that nearly every...

mary rosenblum

novice writer needs to do...but it's very hard to know just what that means. :-)

mary rosenblum

Tightening is not the same as shortening. :-)

mary rosenblum

Really shortening a story generally means changing the plot.

mary rosenblum

Every plot has a 'natural length'.

mary rosenblum

But most of the time, as new writers, we use way more words than the scene needs...

mary rosenblum

and those words, like fog, tend to blur the scene for the reader...

mary rosenblum

so that it's not as crystal clear as it should be.

mary rosenblum

But there are many ways to tell a story or a personal narrative...

info

Isn't tightening something like one thing means something general while something else not only fits better, but also gives more meaning?

mary rosenblum

Generally it means conveying the same information with fewer words, info.

mary rosenblum

The fewest words you can use to convey what you mean to convey gives you the strongest prose.

greenfaile

What do you think of the book, The Ten Percent Solution? Would that relate more to tightening or shortening?

mary rosenblum

That's mostly about tightening, green, and it's an excellent book.

mary rosenblum

I recommend it to many students every year.

mary rosenblum

It's available from Fairwood Press

mary rosenblum

And very inexpensive.

mary rosenblum

Ken Rand described the most common 'wordy habits' and how to find and remove them.

tory

A challenge I find is cutting what appear to be unnecessary words, then having a reader say "They just walked out the door, but never opened it" or "They drove away but you didn't put them IN the car, just walking towards it." Ugh!

mary rosenblum

And that's always the dilemma...removing excessive details but not necessary details.

mary rosenblum

Now, Tory, you have to weigh your reader reactions. There are people who want you to dot every i and cross every t in the scene...

mary rosenblum

They are not going to be happy unless they see every footstep that the MC takes from getting up in the morning ...

mary rosenblum

to going to bed at night. But every OTHER reader on the planet will be bored to tears!

mary rosenblum

You have to learn to guage your lapses so that most of your readers follow you. You'll never please everybody, but 'most' is a good goal.

tory

Exactly. Can't we leave them some details to assume. Like MC gets up in the morning. We assume he gets dressed before leaving for work.

info

Wouldn't be assumed sometimes that if the mc is walking to the car or out the door that they would have to get in or open the door?

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

mary rosenblum

And someones a novice critiquer gets carried away looking for 'holes'. The more people who read your work...

mary rosenblum

and give you feedback on it, the more you'll get a feel for what works and what does not.

mary rosenblum

If Angie grabs her coat and purse and heads out the door to work and then we see her in the car turning on the radio...

mary rosenblum

we'll assume she went down the walk, opened the car door, got in and started it.

mary rosenblum

Most readers can make that transition just fine.

mary rosenblum

If we go from opening the door to sitting in Starbucks sipping a latte...that's going to throw readers..

mary rosenblum

unless she announced her intent to walk to Starbucks' before she grabbed her purse and left.

mary rosenblum

A lot of what you want to get rid of is even less obvious than that...

mary rosenblum

they're just 'weedy words'... a way of saying something that you can say equally well...

mary rosenblum

with fewer words.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

The editor of my first novel taught me a lot about tight writing.

mary rosenblum

She could revise a paragraph, take out a dozen words or more and I couldn't tell what she had removed!

mary rosenblum

By the time we got through with that book, I wrote a lot more tightly than I did when we started. :-)

geezer

Wow! So, an editor actually goes through everything with a fine tooth comb like that?

mary rosenblum

A good one does. :-) I don't need that kind of text editing now...I write a LOT better now than I did with that first novel...but a good editor examines every paragraph...

mary rosenblum

to see if it belongs, if it's in the right place, do we need more here or is this too much?

mary rosenblum

The editor's goal is to make your book as strong and near perfect as he or she can.

greenfaile

what's the first thing you look for when you are tightening? Are there 'red flags' to look for?

mary rosenblum

The first thing to look for is 'was, is, were, are'...the to be verbs.

mary rosenblum

They are weak, flaccid, and require extra useless words.

mary rosenblum

There was a blue bowl on the table.

mary rosenblum

A blue bowl sat on the table.

mary rosenblum

Look for adverbs.

mary rosenblum

quickly, slowly, sadly, etc.

mary rosenblum

She walked quickly down the sidewalk.

mary rosenblum

She strode down the sidewalk.

mary rosenblum

She trotted down the sidewalk.

mary rosenblum

Whatever fits.

andi

suddenly?

mary rosenblum

Sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't, andi.

mary rosenblum

The car screeched to a stop.

mary rosenblum

The car stopped suddenly.

mary rosenblum

Screeched to a stop is actually more in terms of word count, but it's much more vivid.

acook

is there ever a place for adverbs?

mary rosenblum

Sure. If not using the adverb is going to require a convoluted and complex couple of sentences, just use it.

mary rosenblum

Same with 'was' or 'is'.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes it IS the best way to express the thought, but do it by intent not by habit!

mary rosenblum

If your character is thinking that he's cold, then 'He was cold' may be your best choice.

mary rosenblum

But you can show us that he's cold by having him shiver. :-)

mary rosenblum

Bret shivered.

mary rosenblum

If it's snowing, clearly Bret is cold.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

info

I understand for the most part about how a reader will know a short statement it a thought and we don't really need to add the words he/she thought. What about in a thought statement like this? What a jerk, Luke thought as he past a bum sleeping in a box.

mary rosenblum

Sure, thought is very appropriate. But you could do this, as well.

mary rosenblum

What a jerk. Luke sneered as he passed a bum sleeping in a box.

mary rosenblum

Any action Luke takes right after 'what a jerk' will tell us that this is his thought.

mary rosenblum

The lack of quote marks tells us thought rather than spoken words.

mary rosenblum

If you look at sentences...

mary rosenblum

you can usually cut a few words from them and make the action clearer.

mary rosenblum

If you think about written words...

mary rosenblum

the more quickly and effortlessly they turn into images in your mind's eye...

mary rosenblum

the more real the scene seems.

mary rosenblum

That is why 'show' is stronger than 'tell'.

mary rosenblum

We see things happening, we don't listen to someone telling us and then recreate the image.

mary rosenblum

That's why active voice is stronger than passive.

mary rosenblum

In passive voice, you need to read to the end of the sentence before you can 'assemble' the picture...

mary rosenblum

while active voice usually allows the picture to form as you read the words.

mary rosenblum

If you were kind to him, Terry would share with you his childlike enthusiasm and fascination with so many things.

mary rosenblum

What does the reader need to get here?

mary rosenblum

Childlike enthusiasm, fascination with many things.

mary rosenblum

Let's trim some words here.

mary rosenblum

If you were kind, Terry shared his childlike enthusiasm and fascination with the world willingly.

info

Wouldn't that statement make the reader wonder what the author is talking about and where it's going?

mary rosenblum

Well, I took it out of context, info.

mary rosenblum

In the context of the lengthy description of Terry, it makes sense.

mary rosenblum

His small basement apartment was cluttered and dark. Clothes were draped on the furniture. The furniture being a large black leather couch - too big for the apartment, but Terry was proud of it. There were books and strange musical instruments from other countries.

mary rosenblum

This is a good example to work with. We have a description of a room, but it has a lot of words that don't really evoke a lot of image.

mary rosenblum

So what are the important images?

mary rosenblum

Dark, right? Cluttered.

mary rosenblum

Black leather couch, clothes draped on it, books, foreign musical instruments.

mary rosenblum

Oh yes, small.

mary rosenblum

Terry was pround of his small dark basement apartment. Clothes draped the black leather sofa and shelves of books and foreign musical instruments lined the walls.

mary rosenblum

Hmmm let's get rid of the 'was'.

mary rosenblum

Terry showed off his small, dark, basement apartment proudly.

mary rosenblum

Either version works, depending on what is going on in the piece.

mary rosenblum

This version is not only quite a bit shorter, but now the main images...small, dark, basement, clothing draped leather sofa, books, instruments...

mary rosenblum

stand out more clearly. They aren't obscured by all those other words.

mary rosenblum

If you think about words, you have 'image' words...that convey something visual -- an action, a thing --

mary rosenblum

and you have 'empty' words that convey no image. Was, is, an , the , is, etc.

mary rosenblum

We need some of those empty words.

mary rosenblum

You're going to have a, an, the in your sentences, as well as 'and' etc.

mary rosenblum

But try to use as few empty words as possible.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

At this point, I tend to automatically rearrange sentences as I write to avoid those empty words...

mary rosenblum

but I did that mostly in revision when I started.

mary rosenblum

The more you do it, the more automatically you do it in the first draft.

mary rosenblum

But at first, you're going to do it mostly in revision.

mary rosenblum

Actually, in this last novel, I needed to pull about 7000 words out of it or the final book was going to cost more.

mary rosenblum

I didn't want the higher price, but 7000 words is about 28 pages and both the editor and I...

mary rosenblum

agreed that we couldn't cut any scene from the book. It was very tightly plotted.

mary rosenblum

So I sat down and axed a word here, a couple of words there...

mary rosenblum

and got rid of 8000 by the time I was done.

mary rosenblum

Now I do write 'clean' so I couldn't do what I did above very often.

mary rosenblum

But what I did was to ask myself...'will the reader miss this detail if it's gone'?

mary rosenblum

And some details were redundant...I know I'd mentioned this somewhere else.e..

mary rosenblum

or the reader could figure it out, or it was nice, but not necessary...

mary rosenblum

And that's something to pay attention to at the novice level.

mary rosenblum

Details are good, and to be honest, most novice writers use too few details, not too many...

mary rosenblum

but all details are not created equal.

mary rosenblum

You want the important details, you don't want the unimportant details.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

One great way to find those extra words, by the way, is to read your story or narrative out loud.

mary rosenblum

Same for nonfiction...any prose.

mary rosenblum

Read the copy out loud.

mary rosenblum

You will hear things that you won't notice on the page.

mary rosenblum

A REALLY good way to hear rough and wordy spots is to get someone else to read it out loud and listen.

mary rosenblum

Most of us don't have someone to do that regularly, but you really will discover that it's like looking at your prose with a magnifying glass.

mary rosenblum

Just watch out for 'wordy' sentences. He had a smile on his lips.

mary rosenblum

Why not say 'he smiled'?

mary rosenblum

You just removed six words and they were all empty but one.

mary rosenblum

Where else would the smile be? We'll see the lips.

mary rosenblum

She put her change into her pocket.

mary rosenblum

She pocketed her change.

mary rosenblum

He was hit by a truck.

mary rosenblum

A truck hit him.

mary rosenblum

She was bitten by a dog.

mary rosenblum

A dog bit her.

paminnapa

I think that comes when being new trying to show not tell (he had a smile on his lips)

mary rosenblum

Could be. :-) I think there's a tendency for novice writers to think that a more convoluted sentence like that...

mary rosenblum

sounds more 'literary'. :-)

mary rosenblum

And some stories are style-dependent...that is the way in which the story is told...

mary rosenblum

is as important as WHAT is being told. Those stories...the literary end of the spectrum...

mary rosenblum

are more like poetry...form and literary devices are as important as the content.

mary rosenblum

But if you're not writing a piece of literary fiction, if you're writing a mystery, a mainstream story, a fantasy..then use prose...

mary rosenblum

that strengthens the story.

mary rosenblum

What is the story intended to do? Is it intended to seem real to the reader, to suck your reader into this world?

mary rosenblum

Then use that minimum-word-maximum-effect type of prose.

mary rosenblum

Now of course...if you

mary rosenblum

you're writing in narrative form...

mary rosenblum

either the Main Character is telling the story (first person POV) or the author is telling the story, (Narrative)...

mary rosenblum

your prose will be written in the 'voice' of the narrator.

mary rosenblum

And your speaker may well use a lot of to be verbs, or bad grammar, or describe things in very convoluted and silly language.

mary rosenblum

Your trimming there is going to have more to do with 'has she said enough here?" but even so...

mary rosenblum

you can maintain your narrator's voice and still not overuse those empty words.

mary rosenblum

BUT...remember that your characters can bore your readers, too. :-) If you create a character who meanders on and on and never gets to the point, your character is going to bore readers!

mary rosenblum

Not a good choice for a first person main character.

mary rosenblum

This is why first person novels are difficult to pull off well...and even short stories can be problematical.

mary rosenblum

First person is actually a tougher voice than third, although a lot of novice writers choose it because it seems 'easy'.

robastor

I see everything you are saying, however, if a story is full of simple secentences like, "A dog bit her," as writers, don't we tend to start sounding too elementary?

mary rosenblum

Sure. It's going to sound like a laundry list. She left home. She shut the gate behind her. She walked down the street. A dog bit her.

mary rosenblum

Yuck.

mary rosenblum

Carrie left the house singing. Lovely Friday. She closed the gate with a snap and skipped down the sidewalk, but at the corner, she slowed. The Rogers' dog was out.

mary rosenblum

She turned to run, but with a snarl, the big shepherd lunged at her and its teeth closed on her leg.

mary rosenblum

I've connected that laundry list and added some detials.

info

One problem that I find having is writing a scene with two or three characters in it and not having any of them the dominent character and a little frustrated with it. Could you help clearify it a bit for me. First of all, don't I need to make one of them the main POV and how do I go about it when I'm not sure who the main POV should be?

mary rosenblum

YOu do need a main character, info, and usually...but not always...it's also your POV.

mary rosenblum

You're going to have to ask yourself two things: Who has a big stake in this? That's the most important question.

mary rosenblum

Probably one or two characters have the most to win or lose.

mary rosenblum

If two characters have pretty equally large stakes...then ask yourself: Who do I like best?

mary rosenblum

And make that your dominant POV.

mary rosenblum

You can have more than one POV in a novel, but usually you have a central character.

mary rosenblum

Then tell your story mostly through the POV of your main character...

mary rosenblum

and in a novel, you may tell the story through two or even three POV characters...

mary rosenblum

but you should still know who your central character is...

mary rosenblum

and I would not use a host of POVS. The more POV characters you have, the less your readers...

mary rosenblum

identify with any of them. If the novel is character driven, that can bite you in the butt. :-)

carlag

how do change pov from central character to secondary character and back again without confusing the reader

mary rosenblum

You are safest to do it at the chapter breaks, carlag.

mary rosenblum

Readers expect a change there, they're looking for 'who/where/when' as the new chapter opens...

mary rosenblum

so you can make that switch clearly.

mary rosenblum

If you plan to switch POV within a chapter or within a short story (usually not a good idea)..

mary rosenblum

then skip a line, center a * on that skipped line.

mary rosenblum

That indicates a scene break or a POV shift.

mary rosenblum

It is VERY easy to lose readers if you shift POV without any warning.

carlag

and whomever the central character is .. if both characters are within a setting simulataneously ... assumes use main character POV

mary rosenblum

Well, you can use whichever character is more suited to be the POV for that scene, carlag.

mary rosenblum

Generally, your main character is your POV...all the way through for most short stories...

mary rosenblum

and usually for the majority of the chapters in a novel.

info

There are ways to still shift POV without losing readers by making the shift seamless, isn't there? Even if it is more difficult to do?

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

It is very very hard to do 'seamless' POV shifts. Orson Scott Card does this the best of anybody I know, and a lot of readers still gripe about how they get lost.

mary rosenblum

I quit doing it...I was hearing from too many fans that they missed the transition.

mary rosenblum

The best way to shift POV is to make it a VERY clear break.

mary rosenblum

Hi iamnina...you have to type /ask in front of the question. :-)

mary rosenblum

Iamnina asked if I would talk more about the use of detail...

mary rosenblum

What is enough?

mary rosenblum

'enough' detail are the details that make the item or scene seem real...

mary rosenblum

and too much is any more than that.

mary rosenblum

Say your character is hungry.

mary rosenblum

Many novice writers will write something like:

mary rosenblum

On the way home, Marv ate lunch.

mary rosenblum

but why not use this as an opportunity to get to know a bit more about Marv?

mary rosenblum

On the way home, Marv stopped off at Goldbergs for one of their colossal reuben sandwiches with a celery soda.

mary rosenblum

These details give us a sense of Marv's personal taste.

janp

Celery soda?

mary rosenblum

Yeah, it's actually good. :-)

mary rosenblum

But you could have too much here just as easily.

mary rosenblum

That bit...the sandwich and soda...

mary rosenblum

tells us that Marv is partial to Jewish deli food...

mary rosenblum

and he does not worry about his caloric intake. :-)

mary rosenblum

On the way home, Marv stopped off at Goldberg's for one of their colossal reuben sandwiches, the ones that are piled high with swiss cheese and sauerkraut...

mary rosenblum

and are guaranteed to have a full half pound of pastrami on each and every one. While he was there...

mary rosenblum

the got a celery soda but had a hard time deciding between it and the raspberry cream soda.

mary rosenblum

Unless this is an important scene, that's a lot more detail than we really need.

iamnina

celery soda is fattening? :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, it has sugar in it. :-) It's about as sweet as coke.

mary rosenblum

But if this is not an important scene, where all these details have major relevance...

mary rosenblum

then they're simply too much.

mary rosenblum

The mention of a reuben and that soda give that 'lunch' a personality and give us...

mary rosenblum

an insight into Marv's personal tastes.

mary rosenblum

That's enough.

mary rosenblum

The details about the making of the sandwich and his decision about his soda choice..

mary rosenblum

are just extraneous.

mary rosenblum

They don't really add enough new information about Marv to justify the words.

mary rosenblum

When you need more detail is when the reader can't see anything.

mary rosenblum

Or you are using 'generic' words.

mary rosenblum

He pulled up in front of the house.

mary rosenblum

What kind of house?

mary rosenblum

Bungalow?

mary rosenblum

Tudor?

mary rosenblum

Ranch style?

mary rosenblum

Dilapidated shack?

mary rosenblum

But you probably don't need a paragraph of details about the trim, the color, the curtains, the landscaping.

mary rosenblum

Close your eyes and ask yourself'...what do I want me reader to see and what two details will show that?

mary rosenblum

Say I want the reader to see a two story victorian style house on a weedy corner lot with shutters, in no great state of repair.

mary rosenblum

I might describe it as a 'sagging Victorian'

mary rosenblum

Or a sagging Victorian with broken shutters

mary rosenblum

That's enough to put the reader and I on the same page.

mary rosenblum

I can sneak the 'corner lot' and 'weedy' in later, if I want, as he goes up the front steps.

iamnina

how would you handle this same thing in a created world,

mary rosenblum

Same way.

mary rosenblum

Whatever you are looking at has an analogy we can relate to.

mary rosenblum

The bee-hive shaped structure...

mary rosenblum

The silver sphere...

mary rosenblum

Whatever fantasy or SF universe you're in, your landscape will be describable in terms of real-world items.

mary rosenblum

YOu have to be a bit more careful and use a few more details when you're making up the reality and not using the real world. :-)

mary rosenblum

But a very few details go a long way.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

Do join us on Sunday for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

when we just get together to talk about whatever. :-)

charie'

How do you define in the fewest words made up items from the SF universe?

mary rosenblum

Usually I try to have my character interact with them, charie.

mary rosenblum

The elevator doors opened. Green! Light! Ahni blinked in the flood of brilliance. Her inadvertant start sent her drifting...

mary rosenblum

out into the orbital axle. She grabbed, felt softness and moisture. Plants! She squinted...

mary rosenblum

her eyes stinging... Peas. She recognized the green scimitars of the forming pods, but big. Huge!

mary rosenblum

This is a character first encountering the hydroponic garden in the hub of an orbital platform...

mary rosenblum

and by the time she gets her drifting stopped...

mary rosenblum

we see the huge hydroponic tubes planted to veggies and fruits and get a sense of scale.

iamnina

I kept getting bounced with I used this ask button.

mary rosenblum

You made it this time, iam.

mary rosenblum

Sundays are same as Friday's chat...

mary rosenblum

whatever time zone that is for you. :-)

mary rosenblum

See you all then!

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

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