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mary rosenblum
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Hello all.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a great
week!
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess
words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in
November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
tightening prose tonight....just because it's something that nearly
every...
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mary rosenblum
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novice writer needs to
do...but it's very hard to know just what that means. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Tightening is not the same as
shortening. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Really shortening a story
generally means changing the plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Every plot has a 'natural
length'.
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mary rosenblum
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But most of the time, as new
writers, we use way more words than the scene needs...
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mary rosenblum
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and those words, like fog,
tend to blur the scene for the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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so that it's not as crystal
clear as it should be.
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mary rosenblum
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But there are many ways to
tell a story or a personal narrative...
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info
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Isn't tightening something like
one thing means something general while something else not only fits
better, but also gives more meaning?
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mary rosenblum
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Generally it means conveying
the same information with fewer words, info.
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mary rosenblum
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The fewest words you can use
to convey what you mean to convey gives you the strongest prose.
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greenfaile
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What do you think of the book,
The Ten Percent Solution? Would that relate more to tightening or
shortening?
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mary rosenblum
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That's mostly about
tightening, green, and it's an excellent book.
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mary rosenblum
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I recommend it to many
students every year.
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mary rosenblum
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It's available from Fairwood
Press
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mary rosenblum
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And very inexpensive.
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mary rosenblum
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Ken Rand described the most
common 'wordy habits' and how to find and remove them.
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tory
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A challenge I find is cutting
what appear to be unnecessary words, then having a reader say "They
just walked out the door, but never opened it" or "They drove away
but you didn't put them IN the car, just walking towards it." Ugh!
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mary rosenblum
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And that's always the
dilemma...removing excessive details but not necessary details.
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mary rosenblum
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Now, Tory, you have to weigh
your reader reactions. There are people who want you to dot every i and
cross every t in the scene...
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mary rosenblum
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They are not going to be happy
unless they see every footstep that the MC takes from getting up in the
morning ...
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mary rosenblum
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to going to bed at night. But
every OTHER reader on the planet will be bored to tears!
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mary rosenblum
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You have to learn to guage
your lapses so that most of your readers follow you. You'll never please
everybody, but 'most' is a good goal.
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tory
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Exactly. Can't we leave them
some details to assume. Like MC gets up in the morning. We assume he gets
dressed before leaving for work.
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info
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Wouldn't be assumed sometimes
that if the mc is walking to the car or out the door that they would have
to get in or open the door?
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly.
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mary rosenblum
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And someones a novice
critiquer gets carried away looking for 'holes'. The more people who read
your work...
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mary rosenblum
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and give you feedback on it,
the more you'll get a feel for what works and what does not.
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mary rosenblum
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If Angie grabs her coat and
purse and heads out the door to work and then we see her in the car turning
on the radio...
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mary rosenblum
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we'll assume she went down the
walk, opened the car door, got in and started it.
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mary rosenblum
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Most readers can make that
transition just fine.
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mary rosenblum
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If we go from opening the door
to sitting in Starbucks sipping a latte...that's going to throw readers..
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mary rosenblum
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unless she announced her
intent to walk to Starbucks' before she grabbed her purse and left.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of what you want to get
rid of is even less obvious than that...
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mary rosenblum
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they're just 'weedy words'...
a way of saying something that you can say equally well...
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mary rosenblum
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with fewer words.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess
words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in
November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any
questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on
the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question
mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into
the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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The editor of my first novel
taught me a lot about tight writing.
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mary rosenblum
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She could revise a paragraph,
take out a dozen words or more and I couldn't tell what she had removed!
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mary rosenblum
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By the time we got through
with that book, I wrote a lot more tightly than I did when we started. :-)
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geezer
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Wow! So, an editor actually goes
through everything with a fine tooth comb like that?
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mary rosenblum
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A good one does. :-) I don't
need that kind of text editing now...I write a LOT better now than I did
with that first novel...but a good editor examines every paragraph...
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mary rosenblum
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to see if it belongs, if it's
in the right place, do we need more here or is this too much?
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mary rosenblum
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The editor's goal is to make
your book as strong and near perfect as he or she can.
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greenfaile
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what's the first thing you look
for when you are tightening? Are there 'red flags' to look for?
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mary rosenblum
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The first thing to look for is
'was, is, were, are'...the to be verbs.
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mary rosenblum
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They are weak, flaccid, and
require extra useless words.
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mary rosenblum
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There was a blue bowl on the
table.
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mary rosenblum
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A blue bowl sat on the table.
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mary rosenblum
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Look for adverbs.
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mary rosenblum
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quickly, slowly, sadly, etc.
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mary rosenblum
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She walked quickly down the
sidewalk.
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mary rosenblum
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She strode down the sidewalk.
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mary rosenblum
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She trotted down the sidewalk.
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever fits.
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andi
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suddenly?
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes you need it,
sometimes you don't, andi.
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mary rosenblum
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The car screeched to a stop.
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mary rosenblum
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The car stopped suddenly.
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mary rosenblum
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Screeched to a stop is
actually more in terms of word count, but it's much more vivid.
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acook
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is there ever a place for
adverbs?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. If not using the adverb
is going to require a convoluted and complex couple of sentences, just use
it.
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mary rosenblum
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Same with 'was' or 'is'.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes it IS the best way
to express the thought, but do it by intent not by habit!
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mary rosenblum
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If your character is thinking
that he's cold, then 'He was cold' may be your best choice.
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mary rosenblum
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But you can show us that he's
cold by having him shiver. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Bret shivered.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's snowing, clearly Bret
is cold.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess
words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in
November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any
questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on
the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question
mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into
the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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info
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I understand for the most part
about how a reader will know a short statement it a thought and we don't
really need to add the words he/she thought. What about in a thought
statement like this? What a jerk, Luke thought as he past a bum sleeping in
a box.
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, thought is very
appropriate. But you could do this, as well.
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mary rosenblum
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What a jerk. Luke sneered as
he passed a bum sleeping in a box.
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mary rosenblum
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Any action Luke takes right
after 'what a jerk' will tell us that this is his thought.
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mary rosenblum
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The lack of quote marks tells
us thought rather than spoken words.
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mary rosenblum
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If you look at sentences...
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mary rosenblum
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you can usually cut a few
words from them and make the action clearer.
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mary rosenblum
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If you think about written
words...
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mary rosenblum
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the more quickly and
effortlessly they turn into images in your mind's eye...
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mary rosenblum
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the more real the scene seems.
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mary rosenblum
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That is why 'show' is stronger
than 'tell'.
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mary rosenblum
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We see things happening, we
don't listen to someone telling us and then recreate the image.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why active voice is
stronger than passive.
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mary rosenblum
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In passive voice, you need to
read to the end of the sentence before you can 'assemble' the picture...
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mary rosenblum
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while active voice usually
allows the picture to form as you read the words.
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mary rosenblum
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If you were kind to him, Terry
would share with you his childlike enthusiasm and fascination with so many
things.
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mary rosenblum
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What does the reader need to
get here?
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mary rosenblum
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Childlike enthusiasm,
fascination with many things.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's trim some words here.
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mary rosenblum
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If you were kind, Terry shared
his childlike enthusiasm and fascination with the world willingly.
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info
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Wouldn't that statement make the
reader wonder what the author is talking about and where it's going?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I took it out of
context, info.
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mary rosenblum
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In the context of the lengthy
description of Terry, it makes sense.
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mary rosenblum
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His small basement apartment
was cluttered and dark. Clothes were draped on the furniture. The furniture
being a large black leather couch - too big for the apartment, but Terry
was proud of it. There were books and strange musical instruments from
other countries.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a good example to work
with. We have a description of a room, but it has a lot of words that don't
really evoke a lot of image.
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mary rosenblum
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So what are the important
images?
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mary rosenblum
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Dark, right? Cluttered.
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mary rosenblum
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Black leather couch, clothes
draped on it, books, foreign musical instruments.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes, small.
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mary rosenblum
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Terry was pround of his small
dark basement apartment. Clothes draped the black leather sofa and shelves
of books and foreign musical instruments lined the walls.
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mary rosenblum
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Hmmm let's get rid of the
'was'.
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mary rosenblum
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Terry showed off his small,
dark, basement apartment proudly.
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mary rosenblum
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Either version works,
depending on what is going on in the piece.
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mary rosenblum
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This version is not only quite
a bit shorter, but now the main images...small, dark, basement, clothing
draped leather sofa, books, instruments...
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mary rosenblum
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stand out more clearly. They
aren't obscured by all those other words.
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mary rosenblum
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If you think about words, you
have 'image' words...that convey something visual -- an action, a thing --
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mary rosenblum
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and you have 'empty' words
that convey no image. Was, is, an , the , is, etc.
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mary rosenblum
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We need some of those empty
words.
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mary rosenblum
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You're going to have a, an,
the in your sentences, as well as 'and' etc.
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mary rosenblum
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But try to use as few empty
words as possible.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess
words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in
November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any
questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on
the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question
mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into
the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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At this point, I tend to
automatically rearrange sentences as I write to avoid those empty words...
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mary rosenblum
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but I did that mostly in
revision when I started.
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mary rosenblum
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The more you do it, the more
automatically you do it in the first draft.
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mary rosenblum
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But at first, you're going to
do it mostly in revision.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, in this last novel,
I needed to pull about 7000 words out of it or the final book was going to
cost more.
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mary rosenblum
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I didn't want the higher
price, but 7000 words is about 28 pages and both the editor and I...
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mary rosenblum
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agreed that we couldn't cut
any scene from the book. It was very tightly plotted.
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mary rosenblum
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So I sat down and axed a word
here, a couple of words there...
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mary rosenblum
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and got rid of 8000 by the
time I was done.
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mary rosenblum
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Now I do write 'clean' so I
couldn't do what I did above very often.
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mary rosenblum
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But what I did was to ask
myself...'will the reader miss this detail if it's gone'?
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mary rosenblum
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And some details were
redundant...I know I'd mentioned this somewhere else.e..
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mary rosenblum
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or the reader could figure it
out, or it was nice, but not necessary...
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mary rosenblum
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And that's something to pay
attention to at the novice level.
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mary rosenblum
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Details are good, and to be
honest, most novice writers use too few details, not too many...
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mary rosenblum
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but all details are not
created equal.
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mary rosenblum
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You want the important
details, you don't want the unimportant details.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess
words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in
November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any
questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on
the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question
mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into
the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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One great way to find those
extra words, by the way, is to read your story or narrative out loud.
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mary rosenblum
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Same for nonfiction...any
prose.
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mary rosenblum
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Read the copy out loud.
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mary rosenblum
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You will hear things that you
won't notice on the page.
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mary rosenblum
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A REALLY good way to hear
rough and wordy spots is to get someone else to read it out loud and
listen.
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mary rosenblum
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Most of us don't have someone
to do that regularly, but you really will discover that it's like looking
at your prose with a magnifying glass.
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mary rosenblum
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Just watch out for 'wordy'
sentences. He had a smile on his lips.
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mary rosenblum
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Why not say 'he smiled'?
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mary rosenblum
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You just removed six words and
they were all empty but one.
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mary rosenblum
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Where else would the smile be?
We'll see the lips.
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mary rosenblum
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She put her change into her
pocket.
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mary rosenblum
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She pocketed her change.
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mary rosenblum
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He was hit by a truck.
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mary rosenblum
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A truck hit him.
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mary rosenblum
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She was bitten by a dog.
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mary rosenblum
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A dog bit her.
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paminnapa
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I think that comes when being
new trying to show not tell (he had a smile on his lips)
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mary rosenblum
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Could be. :-) I think there's
a tendency for novice writers to think that a more convoluted sentence like
that...
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mary rosenblum
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sounds more 'literary'. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And some stories are
style-dependent...that is the way in which the story is told...
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mary rosenblum
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is as important as WHAT is
being told. Those stories...the literary end of the spectrum...
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mary rosenblum
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are more like poetry...form
and literary devices are as important as the content.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you're not writing a
piece of literary fiction, if you're writing a mystery, a mainstream story,
a fantasy..then use prose...
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mary rosenblum
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that strengthens the story.
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mary rosenblum
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What is the story intended to
do? Is it intended to seem real to the reader, to suck your reader into
this world?
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mary rosenblum
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Then use that
minimum-word-maximum-effect type of prose.
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mary rosenblum
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Now of course...if you
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mary rosenblum
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you're writing in narrative
form...
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mary rosenblum
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either the Main Character is
telling the story (first person POV) or the author is telling the story,
(Narrative)...
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mary rosenblum
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your prose will be written in
the 'voice' of the narrator.
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mary rosenblum
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And your speaker may well use
a lot of to be verbs, or bad grammar, or describe things in very convoluted
and silly language.
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mary rosenblum
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Your trimming there is going
to have more to do with 'has she said enough here?" but even so...
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mary rosenblum
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you can maintain your
narrator's voice and still not overuse those empty words.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...remember that your
characters can bore your readers, too. :-) If you create a character who
meanders on and on and never gets to the point, your character is going to
bore readers!
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mary rosenblum
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Not a good choice for a first
person main character.
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mary rosenblum
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This is why first person
novels are difficult to pull off well...and even short stories can be
problematical.
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mary rosenblum
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First person is actually a
tougher voice than third, although a lot of novice writers choose it
because it seems 'easy'.
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robastor
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I see everything you are saying,
however, if a story is full of simple secentences like, "A dog bit
her," as writers, don't we tend to start sounding too elementary?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. It's going to sound like
a laundry list. She left home. She shut the gate behind her. She walked
down the street. A dog bit her.
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mary rosenblum
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Yuck.
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mary rosenblum
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Carrie left the house singing.
Lovely Friday. She closed the gate with a snap and skipped down the
sidewalk, but at the corner, she slowed. The Rogers' dog was out.
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mary rosenblum
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She turned to run, but with a
snarl, the big shepherd lunged at her and its teeth closed on her leg.
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mary rosenblum
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I've connected that laundry
list and added some detials.
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info
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One problem that I find having
is writing a scene with two or three characters in it and not having any of
them the dominent character and a little frustrated with it. Could you help
clearify it a bit for me. First of all, don't I need to make one of them the
main POV and how do I go about it when I'm not sure who the main POV should
be?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu do need a main character,
info, and usually...but not always...it's also your POV.
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mary rosenblum
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You're going to have to ask
yourself two things: Who has a big stake in this? That's the most important
question.
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mary rosenblum
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Probably one or two characters
have the most to win or lose.
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mary rosenblum
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If two characters have pretty
equally large stakes...then ask yourself: Who do I like best?
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mary rosenblum
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And make that your dominant
POV.
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mary rosenblum
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You can have more than one POV
in a novel, but usually you have a central character.
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mary rosenblum
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Then tell your story mostly
through the POV of your main character...
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mary rosenblum
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and in a novel, you may tell
the story through two or even three POV characters...
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mary rosenblum
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but you should still know who
your central character is...
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mary rosenblum
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and I would not use a host of
POVS. The more POV characters you have, the less your readers...
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mary rosenblum
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identify with any of them. If
the novel is character driven, that can bite you in the butt. :-)
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carlag
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how do change pov from central
character to secondary character and back again without confusing the
reader
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mary rosenblum
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You are safest to do it at the
chapter breaks, carlag.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers expect a change there,
they're looking for 'who/where/when' as the new chapter opens...
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mary rosenblum
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so you can make that switch
clearly.
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mary rosenblum
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If you plan to switch POV
within a chapter or within a short story (usually not a good idea)..
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mary rosenblum
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then skip a line, center a *
on that skipped line.
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mary rosenblum
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That indicates a scene break
or a POV shift.
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mary rosenblum
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It is VERY easy to lose
readers if you shift POV without any warning.
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carlag
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and whomever the central
character is .. if both characters are within a setting simulataneously ...
assumes use main character POV
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you can use whichever
character is more suited to be the POV for that scene, carlag.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, your main character
is your POV...all the way through for most short stories...
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mary rosenblum
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and usually for the majority
of the chapters in a novel.
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info
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There are ways to still shift
POV without losing readers by making the shift seamless, isn't there? Even
if it is more difficult to do?
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about losing excess
words tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in
November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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It is very very hard to do
'seamless' POV shifts. Orson Scott Card does this the best of anybody I
know, and a lot of readers still gripe about how they get lost.
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mary rosenblum
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I quit doing it...I was
hearing from too many fans that they missed the transition.
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mary rosenblum
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The best way to shift POV is
to make it a VERY clear break.
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mary rosenblum
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Hi iamnina...you have to type
/ask in front of the question. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Iamnina asked if I would talk
more about the use of detail...
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mary rosenblum
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What is enough?
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mary rosenblum
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'enough' detail are the
details that make the item or scene seem real...
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mary rosenblum
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and too much is any more than
that.
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mary rosenblum
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Say your character is hungry.
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mary rosenblum
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Many novice writers will write
something like:
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mary rosenblum
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On the way home, Marv ate
lunch.
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mary rosenblum
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but why not use this as an
opportunity to get to know a bit more about Marv?
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mary rosenblum
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On the way home, Marv stopped
off at Goldbergs for one of their colossal reuben sandwiches with a celery
soda.
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mary rosenblum
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These details give us a sense
of Marv's personal taste.
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janp
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Celery soda?
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, it's actually good. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But you could have too much
here just as easily.
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mary rosenblum
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That bit...the sandwich and
soda...
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mary rosenblum
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tells us that Marv is partial
to Jewish deli food...
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mary rosenblum
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and he does not worry about
his caloric intake. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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On the way home, Marv stopped
off at Goldberg's for one of their colossal reuben sandwiches, the ones
that are piled high with swiss cheese and sauerkraut...
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mary rosenblum
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and are guaranteed to have a
full half pound of pastrami on each and every one. While he was there...
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mary rosenblum
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the got a celery soda but had
a hard time deciding between it and the raspberry cream soda.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless this is an important
scene, that's a lot more detail than we really need.
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iamnina
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celery soda is fattening? :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it has sugar in it. :-)
It's about as sweet as coke.
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mary rosenblum
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But if this is not an
important scene, where all these details have major relevance...
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mary rosenblum
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then they're simply too much.
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mary rosenblum
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The mention of a reuben and
that soda give that 'lunch' a personality and give us...
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mary rosenblum
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an insight into Marv's
personal tastes.
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mary rosenblum
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That's enough.
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mary rosenblum
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The details about the making
of the sandwich and his decision about his soda choice..
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mary rosenblum
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are just extraneous.
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mary rosenblum
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They don't really add enough
new information about Marv to justify the words.
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mary rosenblum
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When you need more detail is
when the reader can't see anything.
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mary rosenblum
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Or you are using 'generic'
words.
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mary rosenblum
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He pulled up in front of the
house.
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mary rosenblum
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What kind of house?
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mary rosenblum
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Bungalow?
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mary rosenblum
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Tudor?
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mary rosenblum
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Ranch style?
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mary rosenblum
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Dilapidated shack?
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mary rosenblum
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But you probably don't need a
paragraph of details about the trim, the color, the curtains, the
landscaping.
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mary rosenblum
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Close your eyes and ask
yourself'...what do I want me reader to see and what two details will show
that?
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mary rosenblum
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Say I want the reader to see a
two story victorian style house on a weedy corner lot with shutters, in no
great state of repair.
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mary rosenblum
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I might describe it as a
'sagging Victorian'
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mary rosenblum
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Or a sagging Victorian with
broken shutters
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mary rosenblum
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That's enough to put the
reader and I on the same page.
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mary rosenblum
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I can sneak the 'corner lot'
and 'weedy' in later, if I want, as he goes up the front steps.
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iamnina
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how would you handle this same
thing in a created world,
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mary rosenblum
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Same way.
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever you are looking at
has an analogy we can relate to.
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mary rosenblum
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The bee-hive shaped
structure...
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mary rosenblum
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The silver sphere...
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever fantasy or SF
universe you're in, your landscape will be describable in terms of
real-world items.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu have to be a bit more
careful and use a few more details when you're making up the reality and
not using the real world. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But a very few details go a
long way.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us on Sunday for our
casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
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when we just get together to
talk about whatever. :-)
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charie'
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How do you define in the fewest
words made up items from the SF universe?
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mary rosenblum
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Usually I try to have my
character interact with them, charie.
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mary rosenblum
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The elevator doors opened.
Green! Light! Ahni blinked in the flood of brilliance. Her inadvertant
start sent her drifting...
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mary rosenblum
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out into the orbital axle. She
grabbed, felt softness and moisture. Plants! She squinted...
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mary rosenblum
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her eyes stinging... Peas. She
recognized the green scimitars of the forming pods, but big. Huge!
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mary rosenblum
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This is a character first
encountering the hydroponic garden in the hub of an orbital platform...
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mary rosenblum
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and by the time she gets her
drifting stopped...
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mary rosenblum
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we see the huge hydroponic
tubes planted to veggies and fruits and get a sense of scale.
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iamnina
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I kept getting bounced with I
used this ask button.
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mary rosenblum
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You made it this time, iam.
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mary rosenblum
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Sundays are same as Friday's
chat...
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mary rosenblum
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whatever time zone that is for
you. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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See you all then!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place:
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft:
ForumTranscripts
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