Forum Transcripts

Third or First Person? Why or Why Not? 5/18/06

Event start time:

Fri May 19 19:03:21 2006

Event end time:

Fri May 19 20:27:15 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all.

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours.

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a great week.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I hope you were able to join me as I chatted with Nancy Berberick last night. She had some good suggestions about research and how to handle it.

mary rosenblum

If you missed it, I posted the transcripts in Surviving and Thriving: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about first and third person POV tonight.

mary rosenblum

This is an issue that troubles a lot of novice fiction writers, especially in novel form.

mary rosenblum

Everybody has a natural inclination to use one or the other.

mary rosenblum

Some writers prefer first person, others...like myself...prefer third.

mary rosenblum

Of course, if you're going to write nonfiction personal narrative, you're going to need to use first person.

mary rosenblum

Readers depend on that first person voice to assure them that this is really the author telling them the truth.

mary rosenblum

But even if you prefer one voice to the other, it's a good idea to understand the strengths and weaknesses of that voice...

mary rosenblum

and try using the other once in awhile.

mary rosenblum

You will be a stronger writer if you have the flexibility to use your less preferential voice when the story requires it.

mary rosenblum

Third person POV is the he/she/name voice.

mary rosenblum

Jane marched up the steps and rang the bell.

mary rosenblum

George studied her face, searching for any trace of recognition.

mary rosenblum

That's third.

mary rosenblum

First is, of course, the 'I' voice.

mary rosenblum

I marched up the steps and rang the bell.

mary rosenblum

I studied her face, searching for any trace of recognition.

mary rosenblum

Third tends to be a bit more flexible than first, where you locked into the POV's perspective.

mary rosenblum

Even when you are doing third person POV with no narrative distance, you can show the reader a bit more through third, than you can with first.

mary rosenblum

So if visuals are going to be important to a story...say it's set in an interesting environment or an alien planet or something of that nature...

mary rosenblum

then third person is probably a better choice.

mary rosenblum

Why?

mary rosenblum

Because your third person POV character can see things...the reader is essentially sitting in the character's head and looking through that character's eyes.

mary rosenblum

So anything that character sees, the reader can see.

mary rosenblum

BUT...in first person, that POV character has to TELL us what he/she is seeing.

mary rosenblum

That means if that character has no interest in the landscape, the beautiful garden or what have you...

mary rosenblum

that character will NOT mention it.

mary rosenblum

Or at least that character will not mention it if you don't want to violate your characterization.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

robastor

Is it okay to use both in a scene when you want a thought from the character? For example; Sally walked into the kitchen, open the drawer and riffled through its clutter. I know I put that corkscrew in here. She withdrew it victoriously, sliding the drawer shut.

mary rosenblum

But that's not first person POV. That's third person POV and Sally is simply thinking ...you're letting us share her direct thought.

mary rosenblum

Pete peered into the shed. Where did I put that hose? He sighed and turned on the light.

mary rosenblum

That's third person with Pete's thought. Where did I put that hose?

robastor

Okay, I was a bit confused about it. :-)

mary rosenblum

Lots of people are and direct thought like that is a bit of a noticeable 'clunk' to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Generally you're better off to paraphrase the thought.

mary rosenblum

Sally walked into the kitchen, opened the drawer and riffled through its clutter. She knew she'd put that corkscrew in there. She withdrew it victoriously, sliding the drawer shut.

mary rosenblum

We don't often think in complete sentences, so when you have your character doing that, it sort of sticks out.

mary rosenblum

We know it's not very realistic.

mary rosenblum

But that paraphrase tells the reader...'this is what her actual thoughts translated to'...and we accept that fine.

mary rosenblum

So when should you use first person POV?

mary rosenblum

If your character does a LOT of internal monologue, you might be better off to just let him/her tell the story.

mary rosenblum

If nothing much happens, action-wise, a first person voice might add interest to the story.

paminnapa

Is it ok to switch between 1 and 3 between scenes....example I have a character we are learning about through 3rd and now he is in jail and I want to get into his head, feel his confusion, his question can I go to 1st or should I stick to 3rd the whole way through?

mary rosenblum

It is very very difficult to switch from first to third or vice versa and make it work.

mary rosenblum

Just use internal narrative, Pam.

mary rosenblum

Bill stared at the cell wall, his skin crawling with claustrophobia. He wanted to scream, swallowed bile and nearly gagged.

mary rosenblum

That sort of thing.

foxx

What if the 3rd pov speaks aloud"Where did I Put..:

mary rosenblum

That's dialogue, foxx.

mary rosenblum

Janey walked into the room. "Okay, you butt. Where did you put my new book?"

mary rosenblum

Her brother looked up. "Who me?"

mary rosenblum

"Yes, I mean you. Who else?"

mary rosenblum

She's talking. It's third person POV, but Janey and her brother are using dialogue.

lore

In CJ Cherryh's Foriegner series it seems like there's a lot of monologue from Bren's POV, but it's in third. It always seeemed to work well to me. I guess she's an exception? :-D

mary rosenblum

Oh, there's nothing wrong with doing internal monologue in third. :-) You just need to do it well. But it's worth comparing it to first. As I recall, CJ doesn't use first much at all.

mary rosenblum

As with most of us, it's probably a personal preference.

mary rosenblum

It takes a story not working to make me consider first.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

paminnapa

can you show an example of internal monologue in third and in first?

mary rosenblum

First is ALL internal monologue. It is the character talking to him/herself or talking to us readers.

mary rosenblum

I looked down the alley but Jeremiah had vanished -- probably into the back of Billy's butcher shop. No point in chasing him. Billy didn't like me at all and Billy had a lot of big knives lying around.

mary rosenblum

That's our first person POV...

mary rosenblum

Here's the same thing with our POV thinking all this...in third.

mary rosenblum

He looked down the alley, but Jeremiah had vanished -- probably into the back of Billy's butcher shop. Ren smiled grimly. No point in chasing him. Billy didn't like Ren at all and Billy had a lot of big knives lying around.

mary rosenblum

The only difference is that we can add a beat of visual here...and we can add action as Ren does whatever he's going to do next.

janecj333

I think you're right abt that temptation to tell in 1st person, and also to use backstory instead of letting us see it happen, as in "Mama always says to use the outside fork first. She says only ruffians eat veal with a salad fork, and I don't want to be a ruffian because then I won't be a lady and only ladies get married and live happily ever after." This can be fun to read for awhile, but it gets old if overused.

mary rosenblum

You're absolutely right, Jane, and this is probably the biggest consideration when you're choosing first or third...

mary rosenblum

the quality of the voice.

mary rosenblum

I wish I had a dime for every first person story I've received with a bland, vanilla, totally unremarkable voice for the first person main character.

mary rosenblum

If the MC's voice does not ADD to the story, do use third person.

lore

I've noticed that very well done third reads like first. Is there a trick to that?

mary rosenblum

Ah yes...that's the zero narrative distance third...it is essentially like first person only you can add visuals...

mary rosenblum

which makes it more flexible. That's why I use it preferentially.

mary rosenblum

They will read almost the same, side by side...that's what I used for my internal monologue example just now...

mary rosenblum

and as you noticed they were very much alike.

paminnapa

so if I'm getting it, 1st is more like a narrartor telling the story....and third we are an audience watching the story?

mary rosenblum

Almost.

mary rosenblum

In first, the MC is telling the story.

mary rosenblum

In zero-narrative third, we are sharing the MC's head and experiencing the story through that character's own senses.

mary rosenblum

We are seeing ONLY what that POV sees...hearing ONLY what she hears...etc.

mary rosenblum

We are not off stage sitting in the audience seats.

mary rosenblum

And that is the biggest weakness with most third person ...novice writers invariable put the reader out in the audience seats rather than inside the POV's head.

mary rosenblum

But yes, first person is someone telling us a story...

mary rosenblum

so it tends to distance the readers a bit more than zero-narrative distance third.

mary rosenblum

You have one perso between us readers and the action.

mary rosenblum

In zero distance third you create the effect of sharing head space with that MC, so the effect is of no barrier between action and reader.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I'd like to get back to Jane's comment on that 'boring' narrative voice that is always a risk with first person.

mary rosenblum

Realize that if you do not create a distinct voice for your first person character...

mary rosenblum

that person will reveal YOUR character with every sentence, and if that character doesn't fit the person you've set in front of us...

mary rosenblum

your characterization is going to be very weak.

mary rosenblum

Remember that we gain most of our character insights, when we meet a new person, by what that person says and how that person says it.

mary rosenblum

Most novice writers tend to start out by giving all their first person characters their own voices.

janecj333

So, when you write "...probably into the back of Billy's butcher shop" and "Billy didn't like Ren etc.", it's not narrator intrusion specifically because Ren knows these things.

mary rosenblum

Exactly. These are Ren's thoughts. Only I"ve paraphrased them because they're probably a mish mash of image, non-verbal awareness, and sentence fragments in reality.

mary rosenblum

Now as a writer, I used 'Ren' instead of 'he' when Ren is thinking that Billy doesn't like him...just because the antecedent...

mary rosenblum

of that 'him' might confuse a careless reader. Ren wouldn't use his own name in his throughts.

mary rosenblum

That's a bit of craft intrusion there...but sometimes you have to do that.

foxx

I am driveng. I stop. We get out. She falls. Is this all 1st?

mary rosenblum

Yep. Sure is.

mary rosenblum

The 'I' narrator is telling us this.

mary rosenblum

The I is saying 'she falls', and 'we get out'...

mary rosenblum

Now, the trick with making those passages the third person's thoughts rather than a narrative intrusion includes two keys.

mary rosenblum

Number one is: use the POV's vocabulary. That way it 'sounds' like that character's thought to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Number two: ask yourself: Would the character really think this, notice this, see this?

mary rosenblum

If the character's internal monologue is in YOUR vocabulary it will seem like a narrative intrusion.

mary rosenblum

If the character sees or thinks or notices soemthing that the character is not likely to do or capable of (such as the bad guy in the next room with no windows between them)...

mary rosenblum

then it's obviously you the narrator telling us this.

janecj333

"She trips over those big fat feet of hers."

mary rosenblum

Well this depends on who She is. If She is the POV, would she think of her feet as 'big fat'?

mary rosenblum

If so...she hates her feet...then this is good internal narrative.

mary rosenblum

If she's very vain and thinks she's utterly perfect, physically, then that 'big fat' is the author's POV not hers.

mary rosenblum

Sally watched her big brother wire the firecracker to the Olds' bumper. Mr. Baromer was gonna be soooo mad. She wondered if maybe she should tell Kelly that she'd seen Mr. B talkin' to the principal yesterday. Nah, she decided. Let Kelly find out.

janecj333

I'm using the pov's vocabulary

mary rosenblum

It's also a matter of how that POV thinks.

mary rosenblum

Remember...every word you speak reveals who you are and how you think.

mary rosenblum

So your character's words and thoughts also need to reveal how that character thinks and feels.

mary rosenblum

That's why I said that it's good zero narrative if your POV thinks her feet are big and fat...

mary rosenblum

then she'd think of them as 'big fat feet'.

mary rosenblum

But if she thinks they're just fine, then who think they're big and fat? Not her.

mary rosenblum

You do the same thing in first...

mary rosenblum

your POV in first isn't just describing the action going on.

mary rosenblum

He or she is putting his/her slant on that action.

mary rosenblum

That POV is adding his/her opinion thorugh the way that character describes the actions.

janecj333

Why is it so hard to write in the form that you usually don't use? I tried a first-person story in January...got half way through and haven't touched it since.

mary rosenblum

You're just not used to it is all. Writing is like dance. When you try new steps, you usually stumble. Nobody is born with craft.

mary rosenblum

I had to grit my teeth and MAKE myself use first to learn to do it well.

mary rosenblum

Believe me the first few attempts weren't pretty! LOL

foxx

If I am the MC & POV , I use my own vocab?

mary rosenblum

Yep. YOu are you. :-) Writing personal narrative, you create the character of...yourself!

mary rosenblum

And that...by the way...is why a lot of personal narrative nonfiction gets rejected.

mary rosenblum

There is no character. The writer uses a monotone that reveals nothing about him/her.

mary rosenblum

If you read good personal essays you'll discover that the author has a distinctive voice.

mary rosenblum

It's not a monotone.

mary rosenblum

It's a good idea to write the voice you're not comfortable with.

mary rosenblum

Do some scenes. Do a few short shorts.

mary rosenblum

Get comfortable with it...

mary rosenblum

figure out how to make it work.

mary rosenblum

It's another very sharp tool in your toolkit...when you need that other voice, you generally NEED it.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

ashton

I would like to master all aspects of the craft but I steer away from first person naturally. I can't get over the constant I, I , I, being used. I hate it. Any way stop the I's, she says laughing.

mary rosenblum

Make them not noticeable, ash.

mary rosenblum

If the reader is caught up in what you're saying, they're invisible.

mary rosenblum

YOu sure don't use 'em with every sentence.

mary rosenblum

If you're not comfortable with that I voice, it's easy to turn a scene into a laundry list of actions. I opened the door. I went into the kitchen. I made lunch. Bleah.

mary rosenblum

I breezed into the kitchen, hungry as a bear. Sugar Plum was on the counter, of course, working the lid off the sugar cannister with one six-toed paw. Whoever said cats don't have opposable thumbs...

mary rosenblum

never met Sugar Plum. She makes a racoon look clumsy. She took off as soon as she saw me of course, beat it out through the hole in the laundry room wall before I could grab the squirt bottle.

mary rosenblum

She'd be back as soon as I left . Cat's got radar.

mary rosenblum

You've got three 'I' in that passage, but most readers won't notice more than one,maybe two.

mary rosenblum

If your POV's narrative is boring and bland, the I standsout.

mary rosenblum

It's also easy to put a lot of unnecessary I's into a passage.

ashton

great example. I read a first person story once that had more I's in it then words to remember. I think that's what turned me off.

mary rosenblum

Well BAD writing is not what you want to model! :-)

janecj333

However, can't a simple "I opened the door, stared into the kitchen, slapped ham on ten slices of bread with no mayo or even mustard." serve as a kind of atmospheric description?

mary rosenblum

I would call that more of a shortcut than atmospheric. Your narrator is summarizing his actions because nothing in the kitchen really impinged on his awareness...

mary rosenblum

it's a great way to suggest that he's preoccupied, in a hurry, not paying a lot of attention to what's around him.

mary rosenblum

So it reveals his mood or suggests what's going on inside his head.

janecj333

"Jack opened the door for me and I tripped over the threshold like my feet had never used shoes. Maybe the kitchen wasn't ten miles away but it looked it, and when Jack's mom sqeualed from the kitchen to join them both for sandwiches and cake, what could I do?"

mary rosenblum

That's good. You have the sense of someone's voice here.

allie444

I seem to have the same problem with too many 'shes' or 'hes

mary rosenblum

It's very easy to overuse those 'labels', not realing that you don't need that many.

mary rosenblum

But if what you are saying grips the reader, the I, he, she will vanish.

mary rosenblum

We just won't notice them.

mary rosenblum

Just make actions interesting, unique, distinct.

mary rosenblum

Show us vivid details, create the scene strongly and those pronouns evaporate from our awareness.

mary rosenblum

The reader is SO busy paying attention to what is going on that those words just don't snag any attention.

mary rosenblum

They REALLY show up if the action is bland and boring.

mary rosenblum

A great exercise is to take a short bit of action that is utterly unexciting and then...jazz it up.

mary rosenblum

Make it exciting by the way you describe it.

mary rosenblum

Add details, bits of character thought that suggest drama, that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

I got an early start on that, jazzing up those booooring spelling exercises so many teachers give...you know...write a sentence with the spelling word in it. :-)

mary rosenblum

Millie walked into the kitchen and opened the cupboard. Waffles this morning? She took out the box of mix and got out the milk and eggs.

mary rosenblum

Okay...jazz it up folks. :-)

mary rosenblum

Get rid of the boring verbs, let Millie do this in a creative fashion.

beryl

Not wanting to wake her husband, Millie quietly gathered ingredients and began making the waffles. Success, the aroma awakened him.

mary rosenblum

That's a good start. :-)

mary rosenblum

Millie danced into the kitchen and opened the cupboard, sucking her thumb as she contemplated the cluttered shelves. Weevils in the oatmeal. She wrinkled her nose. Waffles.

rainshadow

Walzing into the kitchen, MIllie open the cupboard. Dancing

beryl

Example of novice versus pro...it's always good to have a goal.

mary rosenblum

Just a different take.

mary rosenblum

You were concentrating on a larger picture...I was focused on action..as was rain.

megger

Millie skipped into the kitchen and bussed her Mom's cheek. No waffles today! She tossed the box of mix back into the cupboard and opened the frig. Rummaging around, she triumphantly waved the egg container in the air. Omelettes!

mary rosenblum

Again, good...these are all adding a lot more 'flesh' to the boring actions of walking, opening, getting out milk and eggs.

charie'

Millie tip-toed across the cold kitchen floor. She needed a warm breakfast. Waffles? She shook the box of mix. Good. Just enough for two.

mary rosenblum

We know she's trying to be quiet and she's not alone. Another example of 'larger story' here...like Beryl's.

mary rosenblum

These are all ways to make the she disappear...or the 'I' if you were doing this in first.

mary rosenblum

Work hard on making every bit of action in your story interesting...different...vivid...

mary rosenblum

Don't just settle for flat information...she walked into the kitchen.

mary rosenblum

Jazz it up...show us how she moves, what her mood is, what her thoughts are.

seigfried007

After a stellar night with Maximus Harding, Millie oogie-boogied to the kitchen and got the iron all hot‘n’toasty for some steaming waffles. Thinking of all the great things she could do with strawberry syrup and whipped cream later, she measured

mary rosenblum

Oh, NICE personal voice here, seig! Good zero narrative distance.

seigfried007

and set to preparing for a breakfast in bed Maximus could never forget

mary rosenblum

II bet not. LOL. This is why I"m beating on you so much. You really write well.

mary rosenblum

But see what all these variations did?

mary rosenblum

Do this EVERY time your character does anything!

mary rosenblum

Make it sparkle.

mary rosenblum

Make it vivid.

mary rosenblum

Make it interesting.

mary rosenblum

And your readers won't be able to put it down.

mary rosenblum

Notice in Seig's version, which is in third person, we get Millie's voice very strongly here?

mary rosenblum

She's thinking that the waffle iron is all 'hot'n toasty'. That's her voice.

mary rosenblum

That bit of very strong character voice makes the readers really feel they're perched inside her head...that's when third nearly reads like first person.

mary rosenblum

If you're actually using first person, you want to at least that much personal voice...

mary rosenblum

so that your readers get a strong sense of your first person character's personality.

mary rosenblum

Try this exercise for yourself...

mary rosenblum

Pick a simple string of action and then turn it into three or four very different scenes...

mary rosenblum

reflecting different moods, emotional tones, and backstory.

mary rosenblum

Then when you're working on an actual story, apply that same 'jazzign' to the scenes with your character...

mary rosenblum

so that he or she is not just plodding through the day between high points.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

I hope you'll all join us on Sunday for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

we get together here..same time and place...and just chat about whatever.

mary rosenblum

See you Sunday.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

beryl

Thanks for pushing me out of my comfort zone

mary rosenblum

Beryl you did good! Thanks for contributing. :-)

 

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