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mary rosenblum
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Hello all.
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a great
week.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person
versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you were able to join
me as I chatted with Nancy Berberick last night. She had some good
suggestions about research and how to handle it.
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mary rosenblum
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If you missed it, I posted the
transcripts in Surviving and Thriving: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about first
and third person POV tonight.
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mary rosenblum
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This is an issue that troubles
a lot of novice fiction writers, especially in novel form.
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mary rosenblum
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Everybody has a natural
inclination to use one or the other.
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mary rosenblum
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Some writers prefer first
person, others...like myself...prefer third.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, if you're going to
write nonfiction personal narrative, you're going to need to use first
person.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers depend on that first
person voice to assure them that this is really the author telling them the
truth.
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mary rosenblum
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But even if you prefer one
voice to the other, it's a good idea to understand the strengths and
weaknesses of that voice...
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mary rosenblum
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and try using the other once
in awhile.
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mary rosenblum
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You will be a stronger writer
if you have the flexibility to use your less preferential voice when the
story requires it.
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mary rosenblum
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Third person POV is the
he/she/name voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Jane marched up the steps and
rang the bell.
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mary rosenblum
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George studied her face,
searching for any trace of recognition.
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mary rosenblum
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That's third.
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mary rosenblum
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First is, of course, the 'I'
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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I marched up the steps and
rang the bell.
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mary rosenblum
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I studied her face, searching
for any trace of recognition.
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mary rosenblum
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Third tends to be a bit more
flexible than first, where you locked into the POV's perspective.
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mary rosenblum
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Even when you are doing third
person POV with no narrative distance, you can show the reader a bit more
through third, than you can with first.
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mary rosenblum
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So if visuals are going to be
important to a story...say it's set in an interesting environment or an
alien planet or something of that nature...
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mary rosenblum
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then third person is probably
a better choice.
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mary rosenblum
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Why?
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mary rosenblum
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Because your third person POV
character can see things...the reader is essentially sitting in the
character's head and looking through that character's eyes.
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mary rosenblum
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So anything that character
sees, the reader can see.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...in first person, that
POV character has to TELL us what he/she is seeing.
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mary rosenblum
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That means if that character
has no interest in the landscape, the beautiful garden or what have you...
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mary rosenblum
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that character will NOT
mention it.
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mary rosenblum
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Or at least that character
will not mention it if you don't want to violate your characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person
versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer
any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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robastor
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Is it okay to use both in a
scene when you want a thought from the character? For example; Sally walked
into the kitchen, open the drawer and riffled through its clutter. I know I
put that corkscrew in here. She withdrew it victoriously, sliding the
drawer shut.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's not first person
POV. That's third person POV and Sally is simply thinking ...you're letting
us share her direct thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Pete peered into the shed.
Where did I put that hose? He sighed and turned on the light.
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mary rosenblum
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That's third person with
Pete's thought. Where did I put that hose?
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robastor
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Okay, I was a bit confused about
it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Lots of people are and direct
thought like that is a bit of a noticeable 'clunk' to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally you're better off to
paraphrase the thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Sally walked into the kitchen,
opened the drawer and riffled through its clutter. She knew she'd put that
corkscrew in there. She withdrew it victoriously, sliding the drawer shut.
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mary rosenblum
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We don't often think in
complete sentences, so when you have your character doing that, it sort of
sticks out.
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mary rosenblum
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We know it's not very
realistic.
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mary rosenblum
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But that paraphrase tells the
reader...'this is what her actual thoughts translated to'...and we accept
that fine.
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mary rosenblum
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So when should you use first
person POV?
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mary rosenblum
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If your character does a LOT
of internal monologue, you might be better off to just let him/her tell the
story.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing much happens,
action-wise, a first person voice might add interest to the story.
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paminnapa
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Is it ok to switch between 1 and
3 between scenes....example I have a character we are learning about
through 3rd and now he is in jail and I want to get into his head, feel his
confusion, his question can I go to 1st or should I stick to 3rd the whole
way through?
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mary rosenblum
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It is very very difficult to
switch from first to third or vice versa and make it work.
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mary rosenblum
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Just use internal narrative,
Pam.
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mary rosenblum
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Bill stared at the cell wall,
his skin crawling with claustrophobia. He wanted to scream, swallowed bile
and nearly gagged.
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mary rosenblum
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That sort of thing.
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foxx
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What if the 3rd pov speaks
aloud"Where did I Put..:
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mary rosenblum
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That's dialogue, foxx.
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mary rosenblum
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Janey walked into the room.
"Okay, you butt. Where did you put my new book?"
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mary rosenblum
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Her brother looked up.
"Who me?"
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mary rosenblum
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"Yes, I mean you. Who
else?"
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mary rosenblum
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She's talking. It's third
person POV, but Janey and her brother are using dialogue.
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lore
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In CJ Cherryh's Foriegner series
it seems like there's a lot of monologue from Bren's POV, but it's in
third. It always seeemed to work well to me. I guess she's an exception?
:-D
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, there's nothing wrong with
doing internal monologue in third. :-) You just need to do it well. But
it's worth comparing it to first. As I recall, CJ doesn't use first much at
all.
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mary rosenblum
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As with most of us, it's
probably a personal preference.
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mary rosenblum
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It takes a story not working
to make me consider first.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person
versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer
any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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paminnapa
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can you show an example of
internal monologue in third and in first?
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mary rosenblum
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First is ALL internal
monologue. It is the character talking to him/herself or talking to us
readers.
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mary rosenblum
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I looked down the alley but
Jeremiah had vanished -- probably into the back of Billy's butcher shop. No
point in chasing him. Billy didn't like me at all and Billy had a lot of
big knives lying around.
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mary rosenblum
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That's our first person POV...
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mary rosenblum
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Here's the same thing with our
POV thinking all this...in third.
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mary rosenblum
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He looked down the alley, but
Jeremiah had vanished -- probably into the back of Billy's butcher shop.
Ren smiled grimly. No point in chasing him. Billy didn't like Ren at all
and Billy had a lot of big knives lying around.
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mary rosenblum
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The only difference is that we
can add a beat of visual here...and we can add action as Ren does whatever
he's going to do next.
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janecj333
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I think you're right abt that
temptation to tell in 1st person, and also to use backstory instead of
letting us see it happen, as in "Mama always says to use the outside
fork first. She says only ruffians eat veal with a salad fork, and I don't
want to be a ruffian because then I won't be a lady and only ladies get
married and live happily ever after." This can be fun to read for
awhile, but it gets old if overused.
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mary rosenblum
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You're absolutely right, Jane,
and this is probably the biggest consideration when you're choosing first
or third...
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mary rosenblum
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the quality of the voice.
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mary rosenblum
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I wish I had a dime for every
first person story I've received with a bland, vanilla, totally
unremarkable voice for the first person main character.
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mary rosenblum
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If the MC's voice does not ADD
to the story, do use third person.
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lore
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I've noticed that very well done
third reads like first. Is there a trick to that?
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mary rosenblum
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Ah yes...that's the zero
narrative distance third...it is essentially like first person only you can
add visuals...
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mary rosenblum
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which makes it more flexible.
That's why I use it preferentially.
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mary rosenblum
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They will read almost the
same, side by side...that's what I used for my internal monologue example
just now...
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mary rosenblum
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and as you noticed they were
very much alike.
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paminnapa
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so if I'm getting it, 1st is
more like a narrartor telling the story....and third we are an audience
watching the story?
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mary rosenblum
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Almost.
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mary rosenblum
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In first, the MC is telling
the story.
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mary rosenblum
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In zero-narrative third, we
are sharing the MC's head and experiencing the story through that
character's own senses.
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mary rosenblum
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We are seeing ONLY what that
POV sees...hearing ONLY what she hears...etc.
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mary rosenblum
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We are not off stage sitting
in the audience seats.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is the biggest
weakness with most third person ...novice writers invariable put the reader
out in the audience seats rather than inside the POV's head.
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mary rosenblum
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But yes, first person is
someone telling us a story...
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mary rosenblum
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so it tends to distance the
readers a bit more than zero-narrative distance third.
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mary rosenblum
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You have one perso between us
readers and the action.
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mary rosenblum
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In zero distance third you
create the effect of sharing head space with that MC, so the effect is of
no barrier between action and reader.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person
versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I'd like to get back to Jane's
comment on that 'boring' narrative voice that is always a risk with first
person.
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mary rosenblum
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Realize that if you do not
create a distinct voice for your first person character...
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mary rosenblum
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that person will reveal YOUR
character with every sentence, and if that character doesn't fit the person
you've set in front of us...
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mary rosenblum
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your characterization is going
to be very weak.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that we gain most of
our character insights, when we meet a new person, by what that person says
and how that person says it.
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mary rosenblum
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Most novice writers tend to
start out by giving all their first person characters their own voices.
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janecj333
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So, when you write
"...probably into the back of Billy's butcher shop" and
"Billy didn't like Ren etc.", it's not narrator intrusion
specifically because Ren knows these things.
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly. These are Ren's
thoughts. Only I"ve paraphrased them because they're probably a mish
mash of image, non-verbal awareness, and sentence fragments in reality.
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mary rosenblum
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Now as a writer, I used 'Ren'
instead of 'he' when Ren is thinking that Billy doesn't like him...just because
the antecedent...
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mary rosenblum
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of that 'him' might confuse a
careless reader. Ren wouldn't use his own name in his throughts.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a bit of craft
intrusion there...but sometimes you have to do that.
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foxx
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I am driveng. I stop. We get
out. She falls. Is this all 1st?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. Sure is.
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mary rosenblum
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The 'I' narrator is telling us
this.
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mary rosenblum
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The I is saying 'she falls',
and 'we get out'...
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mary rosenblum
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Now, the trick with making
those passages the third person's thoughts rather than a narrative
intrusion includes two keys.
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mary rosenblum
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Number one is: use the POV's
vocabulary. That way it 'sounds' like that character's thought to the
reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Number two: ask yourself:
Would the character really think this, notice this, see this?
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mary rosenblum
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If the character's internal
monologue is in YOUR vocabulary it will seem like a narrative intrusion.
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mary rosenblum
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If the character sees or
thinks or notices soemthing that the character is not likely to do or
capable of (such as the bad guy in the next room with no windows between
them)...
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mary rosenblum
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then it's obviously you the
narrator telling us this.
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janecj333
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"She trips over those big
fat feet of hers."
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mary rosenblum
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Well this depends on who She
is. If She is the POV, would she think of her feet as 'big fat'?
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mary rosenblum
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If so...she hates her
feet...then this is good internal narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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If she's very vain and thinks
she's utterly perfect, physically, then that 'big fat' is the author's POV
not hers.
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mary rosenblum
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Sally watched her big brother
wire the firecracker to the Olds' bumper. Mr. Baromer was gonna be soooo
mad. She wondered if maybe she should tell Kelly that she'd seen Mr. B
talkin' to the principal yesterday. Nah, she decided. Let Kelly find out.
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janecj333
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I'm using the pov's vocabulary
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mary rosenblum
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It's also a matter of how that
POV thinks.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...every word you
speak reveals who you are and how you think.
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mary rosenblum
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So your character's words and
thoughts also need to reveal how that character thinks and feels.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why I said that it's
good zero narrative if your POV thinks her feet are big and fat...
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mary rosenblum
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then she'd think of them as
'big fat feet'.
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mary rosenblum
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But if she thinks they're just
fine, then who think they're big and fat? Not her.
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mary rosenblum
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You do the same thing in
first...
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mary rosenblum
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your POV in first isn't just
describing the action going on.
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mary rosenblum
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He or she is putting his/her
slant on that action.
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mary rosenblum
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That POV is adding his/her
opinion thorugh the way that character describes the actions.
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janecj333
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Why is it so hard to write in
the form that you usually don't use? I tried a first-person story in
January...got half way through and haven't touched it since.
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mary rosenblum
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You're just not used to it is
all. Writing is like dance. When you try new steps, you usually stumble.
Nobody is born with craft.
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mary rosenblum
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I had to grit my teeth and
MAKE myself use first to learn to do it well.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me the first few
attempts weren't pretty! LOL
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foxx
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If I am the MC & POV , I use
my own vocab?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. YOu are you. :-) Writing
personal narrative, you create the character of...yourself!
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mary rosenblum
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And that...by the way...is why
a lot of personal narrative nonfiction gets rejected.
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mary rosenblum
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There is no character. The
writer uses a monotone that reveals nothing about him/her.
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mary rosenblum
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If you read good personal
essays you'll discover that the author has a distinctive voice.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not a monotone.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to write the
voice you're not comfortable with.
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mary rosenblum
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Do some scenes. Do a few short
shorts.
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mary rosenblum
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Get comfortable with it...
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mary rosenblum
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figure out how to make it
work.
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mary rosenblum
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It's another very sharp tool
in your toolkit...when you need that other voice, you generally NEED it.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about first person
versus third person tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer
any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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ashton
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I would like to master all
aspects of the craft but I steer away from first person naturally. I can't
get over the constant I, I , I, being used. I hate it. Any way stop the
I's, she says laughing.
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mary rosenblum
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Make them not noticeable, ash.
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mary rosenblum
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If the reader is caught up in
what you're saying, they're invisible.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu sure don't use 'em with
every sentence.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're not comfortable with
that I voice, it's easy to turn a scene into a laundry list of actions. I
opened the door. I went into the kitchen. I made lunch. Bleah.
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mary rosenblum
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I breezed into the kitchen,
hungry as a bear. Sugar Plum was on the counter, of course, working the lid
off the sugar cannister with one six-toed paw. Whoever said cats don't have
opposable thumbs...
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mary rosenblum
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never met Sugar Plum. She
makes a racoon look clumsy. She took off as soon as she saw me of course,
beat it out through the hole in the laundry room wall before I could grab
the squirt bottle.
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mary rosenblum
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She'd be back as soon as I
left . Cat's got radar.
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mary rosenblum
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You've got three 'I' in that
passage, but most readers won't notice more than one,maybe two.
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mary rosenblum
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If your POV's narrative is
boring and bland, the I standsout.
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mary rosenblum
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It's also easy to put a lot of
unnecessary I's into a passage.
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ashton
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great example. I read a first
person story once that had more I's in it then words to remember. I think
that's what turned me off.
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mary rosenblum
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Well BAD writing is not what
you want to model! :-)
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janecj333
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However, can't a simple "I
opened the door, stared into the kitchen, slapped ham on ten slices of
bread with no mayo or even mustard." serve as a kind of atmospheric
description?
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mary rosenblum
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I would call that more of a
shortcut than atmospheric. Your narrator is summarizing his actions because
nothing in the kitchen really impinged on his awareness...
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mary rosenblum
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it's a great way to suggest
that he's preoccupied, in a hurry, not paying a lot of attention to what's
around him.
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mary rosenblum
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So it reveals his mood or
suggests what's going on inside his head.
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janecj333
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"Jack opened the door for
me and I tripped over the threshold like my feet had never used shoes.
Maybe the kitchen wasn't ten miles away but it looked it, and when Jack's
mom sqeualed from the kitchen to join them both for sandwiches and cake,
what could I do?"
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mary rosenblum
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That's good. You have the
sense of someone's voice here.
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allie444
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I seem to have the same problem
with too many 'shes' or 'hes
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mary rosenblum
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It's very easy to overuse
those 'labels', not realing that you don't need that many.
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mary rosenblum
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But if what you are saying
grips the reader, the I, he, she will vanish.
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mary rosenblum
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We just won't notice them.
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mary rosenblum
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Just make actions interesting,
unique, distinct.
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mary rosenblum
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Show us vivid details, create
the scene strongly and those pronouns evaporate from our awareness.
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mary rosenblum
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The reader is SO busy paying
attention to what is going on that those words just don't snag any
attention.
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mary rosenblum
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They REALLY show up if the
action is bland and boring.
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mary rosenblum
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A great exercise is to take a
short bit of action that is utterly unexciting and then...jazz it up.
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mary rosenblum
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Make it exciting by the way
you describe it.
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mary rosenblum
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Add details, bits of character
thought that suggest drama, that sort of thing.
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mary rosenblum
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I got an early start on that,
jazzing up those booooring spelling exercises so many teachers give...you
know...write a sentence with the spelling word in it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Millie walked into the kitchen
and opened the cupboard. Waffles this morning? She took out the box of mix
and got out the milk and eggs.
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mary rosenblum
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Okay...jazz it up folks. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Get rid of the boring verbs,
let Millie do this in a creative fashion.
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beryl
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Not wanting to wake her husband,
Millie quietly gathered ingredients and began making the waffles. Success,
the aroma awakened him.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a good start. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Millie danced into the kitchen
and opened the cupboard, sucking her thumb as she contemplated the
cluttered shelves. Weevils in the oatmeal. She wrinkled her nose. Waffles.
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rainshadow
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Walzing into the kitchen, MIllie
open the cupboard. Dancing
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beryl
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Example of novice versus
pro...it's always good to have a goal.
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mary rosenblum
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Just a different take.
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mary rosenblum
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You were concentrating on a
larger picture...I was focused on action..as was rain.
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megger
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Millie skipped into the kitchen
and bussed her Mom's cheek. No waffles today! She tossed the box of mix
back into the cupboard and opened the frig. Rummaging around, she
triumphantly waved the egg container in the air. Omelettes!
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mary rosenblum
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Again, good...these are all
adding a lot more 'flesh' to the boring actions of walking, opening,
getting out milk and eggs.
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charie'
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Millie tip-toed across the cold
kitchen floor. She needed a warm breakfast. Waffles? She shook the box of
mix. Good. Just enough for two.
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mary rosenblum
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We know she's trying to be
quiet and she's not alone. Another example of 'larger story' here...like
Beryl's.
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mary rosenblum
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These are all ways to make the
she disappear...or the 'I' if you were doing this in first.
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mary rosenblum
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Work hard on making every bit
of action in your story interesting...different...vivid...
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mary rosenblum
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Don't just settle for flat
information...she walked into the kitchen.
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mary rosenblum
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Jazz it up...show us how she
moves, what her mood is, what her thoughts are.
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seigfried007
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After a stellar night with
Maximus Harding, Millie oogie-boogied to the kitchen and got the iron all
hot‘n’toasty for some steaming waffles. Thinking of all the great things
she could do with strawberry syrup and whipped cream later, she measured
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, NICE personal voice here,
seig! Good zero narrative distance.
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seigfried007
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and set to preparing for a
breakfast in bed Maximus could never forget
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mary rosenblum
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II bet not. LOL. This is why
I"m beating on you so much. You really write well.
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mary rosenblum
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But see what all these
variations did?
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mary rosenblum
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Do this EVERY time your
character does anything!
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mary rosenblum
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Make it sparkle.
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mary rosenblum
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Make it vivid.
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mary rosenblum
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Make it interesting.
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mary rosenblum
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And your readers won't be able
to put it down.
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mary rosenblum
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Notice in Seig's version,
which is in third person, we get Millie's voice very strongly here?
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mary rosenblum
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She's thinking that the waffle
iron is all 'hot'n toasty'. That's her voice.
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mary rosenblum
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That bit of very strong
character voice makes the readers really feel they're perched inside her
head...that's when third nearly reads like first person.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're actually using first
person, you want to at least that much personal voice...
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mary rosenblum
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so that your readers get a
strong sense of your first person character's personality.
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mary rosenblum
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Try this exercise for yourself...
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mary rosenblum
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Pick a simple string of action
and then turn it into three or four very different scenes...
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mary rosenblum
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reflecting different moods,
emotional tones, and backstory.
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mary rosenblum
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Then when you're working on an
actual story, apply that same 'jazzign' to the scenes with your
character...
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mary rosenblum
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so that he or she is not just
plodding through the day between high points.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you'll all join us on
Sunday for our casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
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we get together here..same
time and place...and just chat about whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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See you Sunday.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcripts in
the usual place:
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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beryl
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Thanks for pushing me out of my
comfort zone
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mary rosenblum
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Beryl you did good! Thanks for
contributing. :-)
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