|
mary rosenblum
|
Hello, all!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Welcome to our Tuesday Forum,
with me, your Web Editor, Mary Rosenblum...aka Mary Freeman in mystery.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I apologize for the lack of
reminders last week.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We went through a major
security overhaul to prevent hackers from using our serve list to send
spam...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or viruses! And because of
that, I couldn't use the serve list.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If any of you suddenly realize
that you are no longer getting updates from me, you may have to resubscribe
to the updates.
|
|
ducky
|
Does LRWG have any plans to go
to more of a web (con't..)
|
|
ducky
|
(con't) application for
processing assignments, etc?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Ducky, I"m not sure
exactly what you mean. Right now I am receving and sending student
assignments via email...for those who choose.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But a number of instructors are
less enthusiastic about the new process, so they are taking longer to make
the switch.
|
|
ducky
|
So it depends on the
instructor??
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, it does. You'll have to
ask student services to find out if your instructor offers email submission
or not.
|
|
deb1234
|
That option hasn't been offered
to me anyway. If we could do that it would cut the turn around time on
assignments tremendously
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Oh it does cut the turnaround
by a huge amount! You should ask.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Your instructor may not have
mentioned it to you.
|
|
ducky
|
And also increase the
**pressure** on instructors, right?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Not a bad idea. :-) Instructors
have their regular habits for working on student ms. Switching horses in
midstream is a disrution. :-) Me, I live online anyway, so it was no big
deal...
|
|
roe
|
Mary how can we use stereo types
to our advantage, like the donut eating cop hasn't that been vastly
overdone
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, let's get to this topic!
:-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We're talking about
stereotypes today. The topic came up in one of our open chat.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Since I see a lot of new faces
in the audience today, :-) let me take one second to remind some of you
newer folk...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that we have open chats here
most weekday mornings at this time. It's casual, I'm usually there if you
have questions, and it's a lot of fun.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Great place to bring a stuck
story or assignment for some excellent input.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And it's just fun to talk
writing with other writers.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sundays, too, at 5 PM pacific,
6 MT, 7 Central, and 8 east coast
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Okay, the question was how can
we use stereotypes to our advantage in writing.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Let's define a stereotype
first...it's the sort of 'larger than life' over simplification of a
character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The donut eating, overweight
cop.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The redneck sheriff.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The hooker with the heart of
gold.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Generally, it's like setting a
cardboard cutout on stage.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
There is nothing behind that
thin and colorful veneer. So who really cares?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Stereotype characters are like
canned goods in the pantry, when you're writing.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Come home late and no time to
cook...grab a can of chili.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Or a can of soup. You know
what's behind that 'tomato' label, there are no surprises..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and it's not nearly as good as
something made well and fresh. But it's easy and fast.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And that's the danger of
stereotypes in our fiction or creative nonfiction...they are easy and fast.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Just grab one canned character
from the pantry shelf, toss it into the pot and what do you have?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Canned soup. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So should we never use them
ever ever ever?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, yes and no.
|
|
roe
|
So how do we go about changing
that
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
There are several ways to
actually use stereotypes.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Remember that stereotypes make
it easy for a lazy reader, too. Donut eating cop. Check. Don't have to
think much about him...we know just who he is, right?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Same with redneck sheriff.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Want to wake up your reader?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Take your redneck sheriff
stereotype and send him off to the old folks home to help the residents in
his off hours...black and white both. But on the job he's operating with
his full set of prejudices.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The reader gets a mild case of
whiplash. Wait a minute here! I KNEW this guy!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You have, in effect, said
'fooled you' to the reader, and boy will you wake a reader up doing that.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You have the reader's full
attention from now on. Better keep an eye open...I don't know the 'rules'
here after all!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Now this is a very positive
thing to do...it keeps your reader interested and expectant...waiting to
see what else isn't according to usual expectations...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
BUT...you have to do it well.
You can't use that cardboard cutout of the redneck and stick a different
face on him, leaving the figure cardboard.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's just going to seem
totally unlikely and the reader will possibly quit reading.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You have to create the REAL
three dimensional character but give that sheriff the superficial
appearance of the stereotype.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That message is...don't judge
a book by it's cover, reader, or a character by his or her superficial
appearance.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Good point to make to people
in general. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
|
|
ducky
|
I use stereotypical *traits* to
build minor characters. ??
|
|
ducky
|
Anyone else do that?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Lots of people do, sometimes
to good effect, but more often not, ducky. Be careful here.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If your minor characters are
unique, they are real people even if they only walk on in a single scene.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The young soldier has little
reality as a character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The kid from Louisiana who
hides bubble gum under his battle helmet is a real person.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Even if you do no more than
describe that young soldier as 'the kid from Louisiana' and let us figure
out he's a soldier, you've increased his reality to the reader.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The danger of using the really
usual characteristics ...like our donut cop...is the danger that the reader
will use that as a shorthand..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
to create a cardboard
character.
|
|
tkat_2
|
Sounds a lot like the Stepford
movies of the perfect wife and child.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The stereotypes? Yeah, and
that was sort of what Stepford Wifes was about, as I recall. WIth a dark
twist.
|
|
ducky
|
Isn't it about what the char.s
DO instead of what they ARE?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, and there's the problem. If
you throw us a can of 'redneck sheriff' then we sure expect him to act like
one.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And if you make him act
different, but haven't evolved him as a real character..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
we don't say, 'oh, I guess
he's not a redneck', we say 'he wouldn't do that' and think your
characterization is poor.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So he has to act like
something other than the stereotype from the beginning.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Once a reader has established
a character in his or her mind, it is VERY hard to change that reader's
perception.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
First impressions matter more
in writing than they do in dating!
|
|
dellexis
|
so what you're saying is take
the sterotype out of his element, correct?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sort of...you simply make him
behave like a real person and not a TV sitcom character. :-)
|
|
roe
|
so we throw another side to his
personality?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes. Remember that the reader
instantly 'gets' that cardboard mask. You had better quickly turn this guy
around so the reader sees the 3-D person behind that mask!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you don't do it right away,
you'll have a mask as a character and you will have a VERY hard time
convincing the reader that there is a person behind that mask!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That is why your first
introduction of a character who has stereotypical attributes is critical.
|
|
bravo6
|
I have my main protagonist, in
one situation, have to act like a good ole Southern boy. They sterotypical
kind. Slow talker, rally thick accent, th'kind ya jest wanna take out back,
thar, and shoot with yer 40 ought. And this was how I had him talking. :-)
|
|
bravo6
|
But once the scene was over, he
went back talking "normal"
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You could do that. I'ts an
effective use of stereotype and one I've seen before...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
the main character acts like
some sort of stereotype in the opening scene, just to turn around and
reveal the true nature he was hiding in the next scene. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's when the reader says,
'uh oh, I don't know the rules here. I'm going to pay attention!;
|
|
speckledorf
|
Do you think the reason we see
so many of these stereotype characters is because they are so prevalant in
real life? I happened to see 2 of the overweight/donut eating jail cops
last night.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is a fun chicken and egg
question, speck. The thing is...these cops fit the physical description of
our donut stereotype...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so do you find it hard not to
give them all the attributes of that TV/movie/book stereotype? Kind of
dumb, kind of prejudiced, no sense of humor...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that sort of thing? But maybe
one of 'em is a poet and goes to poetry slams on his night off.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Talks like the donut eater if
you over hear him, but hey, that's how guys in the department talk and he
fits in.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It IS how we tend to judge
people on a casual encounter. Why do you think our mother's nagged us to
dress appropriately?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Where stereotypes are really
useful is to create that bit of dissonance as they reveal themselves as
real people. It also has the rather nice (I think) effect..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
of making readers aware of
their own instant prejudices. :-) And we ALL have them...of one sort or
another.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But again, I can't stress too
often, that you need to make that real person visible very very quickly
when you introduce the 'stereotype' character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Once the reader has decided
that he's just a donut eating cop, you run the risk of having the reader
blame you for poor characterization if you send him off to a poetry slam
later!
|
|
sailor
|
Couldn't we use this to our
advantage in a mystery? A character with some, but not all, stererotype
characteristics is overlooked as a suspect.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Eyup! There you have one of
the neatest red herrings in the book. I use it all the time. :-)
|
|
roe
|
can you give us an example of
that
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Which example, roe?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The mystery red herring?
|
|
roe
|
oops didn't finish , let's take
the donut eating cop and give an example of making him a real person
quickly
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Oh, sure. And then I'll do the
mystery one, too. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Okay, we have our MC for some
reason encountering a couple of beat cops. We have Donut Man and his
partner, and Donut Man gets on our MC's case for something acting just as
we'd expect.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Let's say this is a small town
and our MC looks a bit disreputable and is from out of town.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We have Donut Man pegged as
the small town variety of the Donut Eating Cop...no prob. But then, as
Donut Man gets back in the car...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
the partner says something to
MC about his partner doesn't take too kindly to people who look like
threats to his town, MC makes a snarly comment about DM's attitude..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and the partner tosses off
something about how you have to be tough to get up and read poetry in front
of a mic in this logging town.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
MC might not react to the
comment, but next encounter with DM is at a cafe where MC has to go to pursue
his quarry and indeed...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
DM is there. They start a
prickly sort of friendship there and we see that DM isn't the stereotype at
all.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The only clue the reader got
in that first scene is the partner's comment..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but readers...you, I, most of
us...are pretty skilled at reading.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
When we see a clue like that,
we put our character evaluation on hold for a bit, figuring the author will
give us some more clues soon.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's all you need...a first
clue that all is not stereotype, and then more character details later. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Now even without that clue, if
the cafe scene is our next scene, the reader may be a bit surprised, but
will still accept that DM isn't really the cardboard we thought.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
BUT...if you give us DM twice
as stereotype, you are going to seriously jar the reader when he suddenly
turns into a nice guy.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's one of those annoyingly
subjective fine lines you have to walk all the time in writing...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
how long can you pretend your
MC is a stereotype before you give us a glimpse of his depth?
|
|
lochnessmummy
|
Is it a mistake to show the mc
pegging someone else as a stereotype? Is that just a giveaway to the reader
that the stereotyped character is about to change?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, loch, a clever reader
will go 'aha, maybe not', and it also, remember, reveals something about
your MC.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We learn a lot about
characters through their reactions to other characters.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
In mysteries, those
stereotypes are quite useful.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Give your bad guy a couple of
the attributes of someone we'd normally like and we'll just color that
blank space in with the appropriate stereotype.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
At the end, you reveal that
yes, this was a nice, helpful nurse, but she has been helping her patients
die for years, whether they wanted it or not.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But we saw nurse, sweet, and
painted in that blank canvas with our expectations.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is how mystery writers
often keep readers from guessing whodunnit ahead of schedule. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you also give an innocent
person a couple of attributes that cause us to paint that blank canvas in
dark shades, we'll suspect the wrong person. :-)
|
|
roe
|
so in a mystery we let that
stereotype stand until the end, we don't even give clues?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You need to give a couple of
clues, roe, but they can and should be VERY subtle.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Tiny little hints,
strategically placed in a scene were other things will occupy the reader's
attention work best. :-)
|
|
roe
|
how would we give clues about
nurse sweet
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, for example, we might
have a busy scene where our MC is having a tense moment with a love
interest...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and meanwhile, sort of in the
background, the nurse is taking very good care of an invalid and shaking
her head over the woman's protracted suffering.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
At the end, the reader
realizes that she was marking this woman as her next victim, but in the
scene our attention is on the sparks flying between MC and love interest.
|
|
roe
|
I have a killer that delivers
pizza seems perfectly normal, but always in a hurry, only clue i gave is
when he raced past cop and MC, and mumbled "cop" the cop just
commented about him always rushing around is this the way to do it?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sure. That could work. IT's
the sort of thing you try with a couple of readers, to see if you give
enough of a clue so that the reader doesn't feel that the end comes out of
nowhwere...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but doesn't figure it out
ahead of time.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
More than in any genre, a read
by a couple of good readers is really worthwhile in mystery.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Find someone who reads
mysteries for pleasure and give them the ms.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Then ask them to honestly tell
you where they guessed the perp and why...if they did.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I play this stereotype game a
lot. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And get dinged by my
critquers, too. Usually, I don't give quite enough clues early enough and
have to go back and plant some sooner.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Once your reader has made up
his or her mind about the nature of your character, you're a gonner if it's
wrong!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Stereotypes are worth using,
because it is SO easy to mislead readers with them...but be sure to use
them on purpose!
|
|
dellexis
|
Mary in my Grizzly Bear story, I
want the readers to believe the bear that dragged MC off is a prognast, the
twist will be that the bear is protecting him from a killer.
|
|
dellexis
|
can I pull that off reasonably
well, with very little clues
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That sort of misleading scene
works very well, and has showed up a LOT in animal fiction...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
especially dog stories, where
the animal seems to behave badly, but turns out to have a good reason for
doing so.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sure you can do that, as long
as some character eventually makes it clear to the reader what really was
going on.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Very intelligent bear, dell.
:-)
|
|
speckledorf
|
Does using stereotypes work as
well in other genres as they do in mystery?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Absolutely, speck.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Remember that in fiction, all
genres, entertainment is a major goal.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You may want to make a point,
but if your reader isn't entertained, ain't gonna happen.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What entertains us?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Entertainment is as varied as
our individual tastes in fiction, but there are some similarities in what
entertains readers.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We like that roller coaster
ride of increasing tension and sudden release.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We like to feel good.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Some of us like to be scared.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We like to see good people
win.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We like surprises...they're
little birthday presents all wrapped up in pretty paper.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Wow, cool, I didn't know he'd
do that!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And that's where stereotypes
excell...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We run into the donut eating
cop shaking down the MC and write him off. Yawn. No surprise there...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But when he's behind the mic
at that poetry slam and starts talking to the MC, suddenly we DON"T
know who his is...and he's now one of those giftwrapped packages we can
enjoy unwrapping.
|
|
roe
|
what if the donut eating cop is
thin?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, then he's just a cop who
likes donuts, roe, and we'll see the paralell to the stereotype...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and he might even laugh about
it, but it won't get the automatic 'he's like this' reaction.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you want a list of
stereotypes, spend a week watching sitcoms and make a list... :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
TV sitcoms...the large
majority of 'em...depend on character stereotypes as a sort of
characterization shorthand.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They don't have time to
develop character so they drop in the Blonde Airhead, the Balding,
Demanding Boss...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is a generalization of
course. There ARE good TV shows with real characters out there...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but it is a common use of
stereotypes, and probably why many new writers use them.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's what they see on TV...
|
|
speckledorf
|
Can we take our characters too
far opposite the stereotype? For instance the killer who loves kids,
critters, reads poetry at the library to children, volunteers at the old
folks home....but just likes to kill bald guys on a full moon?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Of course, speck. Remember
that a stereotype is a cardboard character...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
where we instantly assume
his/her attributes.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But a cardboard character is a
cardboard character even if you create that one from whole cloth.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's never enough, remember,
to say 'because I said so," when you're creating a character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can have that killer do
all those things, but we have to see enough of him ...behind the
mask...that we can believe he's out there cutting off bald heads during the
full moon.
|
|
pook
|
my characters are based on real
life and I think they are too boring. Is that where plot comes in?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Why not make them less boring,
pook?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Reading the creative
nonfiction I do...I like that genre a lot...I will bet you that
considerable 'embroidery' has taken place on those 'real' characters, LOL.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can make anyone more
interesting without changing them significantly.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If they continue to be boring,
fire them and find new characters!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
An exciting plot is not going
to fix boring characters, alas.
|
|
pook
|
I don't know how. I am real
serious and the point is what matters.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can do it that way. If it
doesn't entertain readers, you may not find a lot of people willing to wade
through the pages to find your point, though.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I make a point in virtually
every piece of fiction I write. I love to make little sociological or
political points...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but I learned VERY quickly
that if I didn't hook my reader with the entertainment, they'd duck that
point because they dint' really want to lean a 'point' they wanted to be
entertained.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So I've simply gotten very
sneaky about doing both. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can say what you want to
say...pretty much anything you want to say...as look as you hook your
reader.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's where craft comes in.
:-)
|
|
pook
|
I want to. I need technique.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, that's not hard to
acquire.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The way to get better forever
is to 1. Read. 2. Analyze what you read 3. WRITE 4. WRITE 5. WRITE 6. get
feedback -- from a course, workshop, good readers, other writers.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
steps 7 - 10 are WRITE!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's all there is to it.
After about a million words, we start getting good. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I still follow all those steps
and always will.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And I'm a better writer today
than I was yesterday and much better than I was 10 years ago.
|
|
roe
|
So if I take the typical
stereotyped school marm, turn her into a hooker by night (i know that's way
off hehe) drop a few clues in early. I should have an interesting
character?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sure. That would give a few
parents chills, heheh. All you would need to do...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
is let us see enough of her
personality that we could see how she can do what she does and be the
person she is.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It has to make sense to us.
|
|
lochnessmummy
|
What about stereotyped objects?
e.g: the elevator with the escape hatch in the ceiling. Should these be
avoided?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, I think most elevators
actually have those service hatches, loch. :-) But I know what you mean.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yeah, if the resolution to the
scene seems too easy...it probably is.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Any time you fly in the face
of reader expectations, you are offering a 'reader cookie'...surprise in
this case.
|
|
pook
|
Mary, you mentioned House of
Sand and Fog to us. I found it unbelievable. Comments?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I may have mentioned it, pook,
but I haven't read it. :-) Can't help you there.
|
|
speckledorf
|
Killer was dumped by his
girlfriend for a bald guy on a full moon...obviously he took it hard...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Beyond that, this man is
clearly not of sound mind. We'd have to get some clues that he is not
dealing with the same reality the rest of us are.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you make him seem utterly
normal then the girlfriend explanation is not going to wash with us. Nobody
we know -- most of us anyway -- has killed 27 people becuase of a bad break
up!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But if we get some clues that
this guy is a paranoid schizophrenic or at least not living in the same
universe...we'll believe it.
|
|
roe
|
how about if killer finds out
school marm is hooker and gets caught with bald guy night of full moon?
|
|
roe
|
oh school marm was his
girlfriend
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I' m laughing. YOu and speck
need to collaborate on this one.
|
|
pook
|
OK so roller coasteres and
surprises make interesting and entertaining. What else?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Feeling good, pook. Being
scared for some people.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
New information for some
readers.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
justice achieved...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
there are tons of 'reader
cookies' you can use and not every reader likes the same flavors...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but if you have enough
varieties, everybody gets something they like.
|
|
pook
|
Ted Bundy did. But he wasn't
normal. He killed all look alikses to his girlfriend who dumped him.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And that's the key. He
WASN"T normal
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Remember that, unlike real
life, we and the readers are in a partnership here.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The reader says, 'okay, I will
suspend disbelief and believe in the real world you will create for me.
I'll trust you'.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And while we readers want to
be surprised, we don't want the writer to cheat!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We want to be surprised by the
bad guy at the end of the mystery, BUT we want to be able to go back and
say, oh, I see the clues now. Okay you got me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You hear a lot of griping from
mystery readers if they feel that the writers simply held all the cards and
there was no way to figure out whodunnit.
|
|
senicynt
|
I normally don't watch
horror/thrillers but recently watched Gothika. That movie was a surprise!
It sure wasn't the butler! LOL
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Haven't heard of it, sen. Good
horror, huh?
|
|
roe
|
so the trick is always in the
clues subtle but there
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, roe.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Much harder than not having
any, believe me!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I have a fish pond full of red
herrings out back... They eat a lot. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, this has been a fun
'oregon hour'. :-) Avoid 'canned soup' stereotypes, but don't be afraid to
use them to fool the reader into making incorrect assumptions...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
as long as that works for your
story.
|
|
dellexis
|
so as a writer I would play a
cat and mouse game with the reader..."see if you get this
clue"...something like that
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sure. Why else to people read
mysteries? It's a contest...can you keep me in the dark all the way to the
end or will I guess?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And it works in nonmystery,
too. :-) I do that a lot in SF and fantasy.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
YOu can do it in mainstream,
too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'll post the transcript of
this session in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And don't forget our speaker
on Thursday.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Alexis Glyn Latner visited
with us before. This time she'll talk about...]
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
making the transition from
fiction into nonfiction. She does quite a lot of nonfiction.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Have a good week, all!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
See you on the website!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Thanks for coming, all!
|