Forum Transcripts

Show Don't Tell 7/22/05

Event start time:

Fri Jul 22 19:06:13 2005

Event end time:

Fri Jul 22 20:34:32 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours.

mary rosenblum

I'm going to spend tomorrow with some high school students, writing a complete short story each during the course of the day, from idea to finished short short...

mary rosenblum

and I know we'll be working a lot with 'show, don't tell'...

mary rosenblum

so I thought it bore revisiting tonight.

mary rosenblum

It's a deceptive concept...it seems so simple, but putting it into practice is amazingly tough until you 'get it'.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about show, don't tell. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

What makes it hard for beginners is that of course, narrative IS telling!

mary rosenblum

And we are essentially becoming magicians...

mary rosenblum

using some sleight of hand to make readers see the doves fly out of our hats, the egg come out of someone's ear, the silk scarves from the shirt sleeve.

mary rosenblum

We ARE telling, but we're making the reader SEE things.

mary rosenblum

That is 'show, don't tell'.

mary rosenblum

It is the strength in third person POV, because it permits us to create a scene for readers that they can live vicariously, right along with the reader.

mary rosenblum

Oops...right along with the character.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, the way you do it is to make it seem as if we are sharing the Point of View character's perceptions of what is going on.

mary rosenblum

If you describe the scene ONLY in terms of what the POV sees, senses, and thinks, then you are SHOWING>

mary rosenblum

If you include information that the POV does not see, sense, or think, you are TELLING

sparks

How would writing in third person be better at this than a first person POV? First person would seem more personal and closer, to me.

mary rosenblum

Not at all, sparks.

mary rosenblum

The POV is telling the story in first person.

mary rosenblum

First person is automatically a bit more told than third can be.

mary rosenblum

That first person POV can...and should...tell us what is going on powerfully and vividly...

mary rosenblum

so we begin to feel as if we're sharing the scene...

mary rosenblum

but that person is still telling us what we're seeing.

mary rosenblum

It's not nearly as distancing as third person narrative...

mary rosenblum

where the author is telling readers what everybody is doing...

mary rosenblum

that really increases the narrative distance...

mary rosenblum

in other words, we readers feel that we are standing back, watching the action on a stage...

mary rosenblum

rather than being part of the action, up on the stage with the characters.

mary rosenblum

One thing that will add enormous strength to your first and third POV is to describe your scene...

mary rosenblum

by looking through your character's eyes.

mary rosenblum

If my character is in the living room with her back to the stairs, she does not see her sister creeping down the stairs behind her.

mary rosenblum

And so often, the novice author will describe that sister on the stairs...

mary rosenblum

and that locates us outside the scene, standing back in the audience...

mary rosenblum

not shoulder to shoulder with the POV in the midst of the story.

mary rosenblum

As I write a scene, I consciously locate myself in my POV's shoes, no matter what voice I"m using.

mary rosenblum

I ask myself two things.

mary rosenblum

1: What CAN he/she see?

mary rosenblum

2: What would he/she notice?

mary rosenblum

The first defines what I can and cannot describe in the scene.

mary rosenblum

The second will vary, depending on what is going on.

mary rosenblum

If the POV is running for her life, she won't notice the things she'll notice if she's out for a Sunday stroll.

ashton

Hi Mary! Let me see if I can word this right...I too put myself in my POV's shoes, but I still find I'm using "she" or "he" a lot. Is that normal and if not, how do I stop it?

mary rosenblum

Sure. The name begins to 'bong' like a bell if you use it too often.

mary rosenblum

He/she simply takes the place of I in a first person narrative.

mary rosenblum

And the pronouns, he, she, it are pretty invisible to the reader.

mary rosenblum

We see 'em, we take your meaning, we're busy seeing the scene. :-)

megger

Is the idea like this? ...Mary gently pushed on the door with her finger and her heart begin to pound when she met resistance.

mary rosenblum

That's the idea, megger. Let's take it one step further now.

mary rosenblum

Clearly this is a dramatic moment. This door should open and it does not.

mary rosenblum

Something is wrong.

mary rosenblum

Let's see if we can translate YOUR words here into Mary's thoughts.

mary rosenblum

What exactly would she think here?

mary rosenblum

She pushes on the door. it doesn't move. Oh no!

mary rosenblum

So I'

mary rosenblum

So I'd probably write something like this:

mary rosenblum

Mary pushed on the door with one fingertip. It didn't move. Her heart started to pound.

mary rosenblum

Notice that the words are very spare and simple.

mary rosenblum

Instead of 'when she met resistance' I put in 'It didn't move'.

mary rosenblum

Because if I pushed on a door and it was locked when I expected it to open, I'd probably have a flash of thought that would be the equivalent of 'it's closed'...something very brief.

mary rosenblum

So by using those very simple words here, I've attempted to make the reader feel...

mary rosenblum

that we are overhearing her thoughts.

megger

So it needs to be broken out more in terms of thought and possible actions?

mary rosenblum

It's a way of increasing the sense of being there, megger.

mary rosenblum

Most of us know that she didn't think....I have met resistance' when she touches the door.

mary rosenblum

I know I don't think that way.

mary rosenblum

So that is clearly the author's voice.

mary rosenblum

The more you can create the effect of letting the character's senses create the scene, the more real your scene becomes.

mary rosenblum

The more you use YOUR words to describe the scene, the more we're aware that you're telling us a story.

mary rosenblum

Ideally, use your character's vocabulary in third person description. Of course...

mary rosenblum

in first person description you MUST use your character's vocabulary!

randi-lee

How do you get all the "I " and "me' out of first person?

mary rosenblum

You don't, randi. There's nothing wrong with I and me.

mary rosenblum

Hard to do first person without em.

mary rosenblum

Just don't start EVERY sentence with 'em!

mary rosenblum

Remember, people don't speak in perfect grammar...well, most of us don't.

mary rosenblum

We ignore I and Me if they're not overused.

randi-lee

It just sounds so self-centered to me.

mary rosenblum

Well, first person IS self centered. Our POV is telling us about his/her exploits.

mary rosenblum

Ideally, they are interesting enough that lots of people want to hear about 'em. :-)

megger

Aaaah, that's where interviewing must really come in handy. You can get more of the nuance of a story.

mary rosenblum

Well, by really knowing your character, you are revealing characterization with every single sentence of description in your story...

mary rosenblum

because they will be colored by your POV character's world view.

mary rosenblum

And you can really compromise your characterization if you don't keep this in mind!

mary rosenblum

If your POV character was bitten by a dog as a kid and is terrfied of dogs...

mary rosenblum

but describes every dog he/she sees accurately by breed, even the unusual breeds...

mary rosenblum

this makes me think that this character sounds like a dog lover, not a dog hater!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about show, don't tell. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

You can use your characters thoughts for some of your description.

mary rosenblum

Kara parked the car in front of the house and climbed out. A dump. She sniffed. Grass must be a foot tall, shutters falling down. Typical rental shack. She waded through...

mary rosenblum

the dusty weeds to the front door, kicked aside a week's worth of newspapers. He was gone. For sure. She rang the doorbell anyway, listened to the rusty buzz.

mary rosenblum

This is filtered through Kara's senses.

mary rosenblum

She thinks 'a dump'. She notices tall grass, shutters falling down, thinks rental shack.

mary rosenblum

she notices the dust on the weeds as she wades through 'em, hears a rusty buzz as she rings the bell.

mary rosenblum

The reader feels as if he/she is right there with Kara in that yard.

mary rosenblum

Here's the narrative version.

mary rosenblum

Kara parked the car in front of the old, shabby house. The paint was peeling, the shutters sagged from the window frames and the grass was a foot tall.

mary rosenblum

A week's worth of newspapers littered the front step and dust coated everything. Kara went to the front door and rang the bell.

mary rosenblum

It buzzed with a rusty sound.

mary rosenblum

Compare the two.

mary rosenblum

The narrative version includes a few more details than does the 'show' version...

mary rosenblum

but it lacks that sense of being in the yard.

mary rosenblum

We see Kara park the car. We hear about the condition of the house. We see Kara go to the door.

mary rosenblum

We don't have a clue what Kara sees/hears/thinks.

sweett

"No, I'll stick to these pups for awhile. They're friendly enough." Edward looked at the Victorian statutes guarding the steps to the porch. Wrought iron benches sat at equal distances between the six windows framed by trailing English ivy. The front door opened as he placed his foot on the porch. A wiry little man with a stooped frame appeared in the doorway. A few quick steps later, he stood before Edward, his head bowed to the ground.

mary rosenblum

That works. It suggests to me that Edward has just arrived at this house and is examining it. He has a reason to examine it. Maybe he's apprehensive or curious about the man who lives there.

mary rosenblum

It suggests that very human pause we do before we actually begin an action we don't really want to do.

mary rosenblum

If I have to go to the neighbor's house, knock on the door, and admit to old Mrs. Crabapple, that it was me who threw the ball through her kitchen window and I know she's gonna scream at me...

mary rosenblum

I might well stand on the walk and take a looooonnnng look at her house first. :-)

mary rosenblum

Since I have no idea what the context of this might be...that is what it suggests.

mary rosenblum

This is another aspect of show, don't tell, remember...

mary rosenblum

It's number 2: What details WOULD my character notice.

mary rosenblum

He COULD notice every detail of the house.

mary rosenblum

WILL he?

mary rosenblum

Yes, if he's hanging back, not wanting to knock on that door.

mary rosenblum

No, if it's a familiar house he has gone in and out of a thousand times.

mary rosenblum

He won't notice a thing. Unless something is new, out of place, damaged, or he has a reason to notice it.

mary rosenblum

If I come home and I've just been looking at someone's sick and withered kiwi vine, I might notice how luxuriant and nice mine looks...

mary rosenblum

but otherwise, I'll probably park the car, take the steps in one long stride and be through the door, my mind on lunch, my new story, waht have you.

mary rosenblum

Kiwi vine? What kiwi vine?

mary rosenblum

The leaves brushed my hair, but I barely felt 'em.

mary rosenblum

So you have to ask yourself not only CAN my character see these details, but WOULD he notice them right now?

mary rosenblum

If our man in Sweet's example is standing on the steps of his neighbor's house and he and Mr. Brown are longtime friends...

mary rosenblum

this much detail will sound very phony.

mary rosenblum

Why does he notice this NOW?

mary rosenblum

A very good writing exercise...

mary rosenblum

is to write down everything you noticed when you walked into the kitchen last.

mary rosenblum

Those are the kinds of details people notice in a familiar space.

sweett

You are right Mary. . In my example, Edward has purchased this house without ever seeing it. Elijah is a servant in the house who he's never met. This is his first inspection of the home.

mary rosenblum

And that's exactly the impression you created with that wealth of detail, sweett..

mary rosenblum

When you arrive in a new space, you see a LOT of details...

mary rosenblum

that you never notice in everyday traffic.

mary rosenblum

A great effect is when some relative comes over and starts looking around your house and all of a sudden you SEE those cobwebs in the vault and the dust on the top shelves...LOL

mary rosenblum

YOu didn't see em yesterday!

mary rosenblum

And the problem that a lot of novice writers have with this...

mary rosenblum

is that they have created this cool scene and by golly, they want the reader to see it!!!

mary rosenblum

All of it!!!

mary rosenblum

And sometimes you just can't do that.

ashton

And what males notice compared to females is also different, true?

mary rosenblum

Oh, no kidding, ashton. :-) That was a generally 'female' example I would say.

mary rosenblum

We get taught to feel responsible for the clenliness of our homes as kids.

mary rosenblum

And that, by the way, is one of the challenges of writing across gender.

mary rosenblum

Your POV character had better notice what someone of that gender would notice!

sweett

Man! Gotta find a male reader. . LOL

mary rosenblum

Don't laugh. :-) My SF writer friend Mike Moscoe has an ongoing series with a female MC... and his wife..

mary rosenblum

goes through ever ms and tells him where he messes up on POV.

randi-lee

I think females notice things more than most males.

mary rosenblum

That's a generalization, but it's a reasonably accurate generalization, I've found...with lots of exceptions!

mary rosenblum

I am a relatively inobservant female and I know lots of guys who are real sharp-eyes for things I miss. :-)

mary rosenblum

Even things like clothes, physical attributes, and the like. :-)

redraven

The writer's gender is usually obvious - esp. in love scenes

mary rosenblum

Not with good writres, red. :-)

mary rosenblum

There are quite a lot of writers whose gender wouldn't be obvious at all without a name on the cover.

randi-lee

Some female names are not female writers

mary rosenblum

Yes, quite a few romance writers are men.

redraven

Can you name one?

mary rosenblum

Many. Scott Card, Nancy Kress, Greg Bear, myself, thank you very much, James Patrick Kelly...

mary rosenblum

I could go on and on.

mary rosenblum

Even Mike does good female POV, although his wife (and I at times) have to beat him up about it a bit. :-)

mary rosenblum

James Tiptree Junior...one of the most powerful voices in SF for many years...

mary rosenblum

turned out to be a woman and nobody knew until after her career ended.

mary rosenblum

She was actually Alice Sheldon (and my aunt's best friend to my TOTAL shock).

mary rosenblum

It isn't hard to switch POV...

mary rosenblum

in terms of gender...

mary rosenblum

it's simply a matter of paying attention to how that gender talks and REALLY paying attention...

mary rosenblum

rather than grabbing at the stereotype.

mary rosenblum

Actually, a lot of us writers swap 'locker room' and 'bathroom' conversation.

mary rosenblum

And what does YOUR gender talk about in the rest room?

mary rosenblum

That, let me tell you, is a hoot.

marty

Why do writers write under a different gender like yourself

mary rosenblum

I don't write under a different gender, marty. I use my name. I AM female. :-)

mary rosenblum

But sometimes the story needs male characters...I think, actually, I have probably used slightly more male characters than female over the years...

mary rosenblum

I fit the character to the story.

redraven

They may edit their comments

mary rosenblum

The restroom comments, red? Nah. Not the writers I've swapped comments with. :-)

mary rosenblum

One of the exercises I routinly use in writers workshops...

mary rosenblum

is to have a participant write a scene...

mary rosenblum

and then rewrite the scene, changing the POV character to the other gender.

redraven

are you sure?

mary rosenblum

Oh yes. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about show, don't tell. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

cosmos

Then you could rewrite the scene from a dog's POV for fun!

mary rosenblum

Oh, I've had them do something like that, too. :-)

mary rosenblum

Not quite in that manner...gets a bit hard for most scenes. :-)

mary rosenblum

Actually, there's a very good writers workshop that has been taking place on the coast twice a year...

mary rosenblum

and one of their exercises is to have the participants write a love scene.

mary rosenblum

They then get told to rewrite it from the other gender's POV.

mary rosenblum

That really gives some participants a very hard time.

whistlin_smithy

Funny you'd say that. That's exactly what my son did this morning!

mary rosenblum

What's that, smithy? Write from a dog's POV?

jmr

Isn't how we see our surroundings aldo based on our make up? Those who SEE things easily may be more SENSITIVE types and need visual feedback. Those who don't notice as much visually may be more of a thinker type, preoccupied by thoughts. Maybe even how confident the chartacter is too... If a one feels that the universe is centered around them, they may not notice things around them.

mary rosenblum

What you see and what you do not see is entirely based on who you are...novices run into trouble..

mary rosenblum

when they use broad stereotypes for characters.

mary rosenblum

Three male POVs or three female POVs will all have very different ways of perceiving the world...

mary rosenblum

based on who they are, how they were raised, and what they are doing in life now.

mary rosenblum

If you don't know how your character perceives things, you will simply put down what YOU perceive.

whistlin_smithy

Yes! It was so cute.

mary rosenblum

Cool, smithy. I hope he did good dog pov. :-)

ashton

Speaking of this...would it be best to use innitials when writing mysteries verses your name? I've heard before that you gain more first time readers if you they don't know your gender. I wish I could stay but I've got dinner to fix. Night, Mary...and thanks!

mary rosenblum

Well, ashton, some people will preferentially read a man over a woman author, so if you use initials, you fix that.

mary rosenblum

Some mystery writers, especially hardboiled authors use initials...J.A.Jantz for one...

mary rosenblum

because the majority of readers in that subgenre are men.

mary rosenblum

I figure, I'm female, I'm not hiding it. :-)

mary rosenblum

And most SF readers are men...an overwhelming majority.

mary rosenblum

It's entirely up to you.

randi-lee

I am lucky in those genres then because most think I am male

redraven

My son likes both male and female fantasy/scifi writers

mary rosenblum

Yeah, I haven't run into any particular 'you're a woman, you cant write this' mentality.

mary rosenblum

But some of the big names in SF are women.

marty

What got you interested in writing SF

mary rosenblum

I think you can do more with that genre than any other marty.

mary rosenblum

I'm talking good sf, not space opera.

mary rosenblum

You can step people back from reality and get them to look at things they don't see anymore with new eyes.

mary rosenblum

You can make people think. :-)

mary rosenblum

I like making people think. :-)

gwanny

so, back to show don't tell...could you give me an example of 1rst pov describing a room they are in, for example?

mary rosenblum

Sure gwanny. A familiar room or a new room?

gwanny

a familiar one

mary rosenblum

Okay...and here's a good exercise for that, gwanny.

mary rosenblum

walk into your living room, pick up something and walk out.

mary rosenblum

Now, write down everything you SAW. Quit after 30 seconds.

mary rosenblum

These are the details you noticed.

mary rosenblum

I walked into the living room and grabbed the phone book. Annie was on the couch again and slunk off when I glared at her, taking the afghan with her of course. Rotten, rotten morning.

mary rosenblum

I stuffed the afghan onto the top of the piano and lugged the phone book back to the kitchen. I hate plumbing. I hate plumbers. I hate mornings like this.

mary rosenblum

Not a whole lot of detail in this scene...

mary rosenblum

because POV is way too busy being ticked off at the leak or what have you...

mary rosenblum

and only notices the dog on the couch and the afghan and the piano.

redraven

Sue walked into her kitchen. Phew! Forgot the garbage.

mary rosenblum

Nice. Exactly.

mary rosenblum

Good use of scent and you did NOT tell us: The reek of rotting food seeped from the garbage pail.

mary rosenblum

Thank you.

gwanny

okay, i noticed the tv is on, the coffe tray is still on the coffee table, it's dark in there, i nearly tripped on the dog

mary rosenblum

And that's about as many details as my POV noticed when she got the phone book...if she wasn't upset about the leak, she might have noticed more.

mary rosenblum

And here's a tip.

mary rosenblum

If you want to show us the living room...

mary rosenblum

give her a reason to notice it.

mary rosenblum

Company is coming and the place is a MESS>

mary rosenblum

She has just visited her sister and compares their living space.

mary rosenblum

Something like that.

gwanny

no, not sue...it's 1rst pov...I walked into the kitchen. Phew forgot the garbage, again

mary rosenblum

Good.

megger

I didn't even notice the piano or the phone book - only the hate of all things plumbing. It's a very strong emotion.

mary rosenblum

No kidding. :-)

randi-lee

I don't think i could get it all down in 30 seconds

mary rosenblum

You just list the details, randi.

mary rosenblum

don't try to write a scene.

mary rosenblum

If you keep writing, you'll simply call on long term memory to add details.

mary rosenblum

The ones you remember in those first few seconds..

mary rosenblum

are the ones you actually noticed. That's all.

mary rosenblum

It's a good exercise.

mary rosenblum

Do it when you're out running errands.

mary rosenblum

After you leave a store or what have you...write down a list of ten details you remember.

mary rosenblum

You'll start to get a sense of how you, at least, notice your surroundings.

t green

Mary, this is a bit off, but time's almost up for this forum and I want to ask if you'll do a friday forum on Endings. Mine tend to go flat and i just got a rejection today because of it.

mary rosenblum

Sure, t. How about next Friday.

mary rosenblum

The problem with endings is that they stem from the beginning. :-)

randi-lee

I am very observant I can describe many people in a mall

mary rosenblum

That's cool.

mary rosenblum

And not real common, so if your POV is that observant, you need to make a point of it so that the reader realizes that's waht this person is like.

mary rosenblum

Sorry...rabbit in back yard. Had to let the dogs out.

mary rosenblum

That Annie has a nose!

sweett

"No, I'll stick to these pups for awhile. They're friendly enough." Edward looked at the Victorian statutes guarding the steps to the porch. Wrought iron benches sat at equal distances between the six windows framed by trailing English ivy. Just like mother described the old plantations. The front door opened as he placed his foot on the porch. A wiry little man with a stooped frame appeared in the doorway. A few quick steps later, he stood before Edward, his head bowed to the ground. - Does this fix the male pov problem?

mary rosenblum

I didn't think you had a male POV problem, sweett.

labtek

I also have trouble keeping short stories short.

mary rosenblum

That's a plotting issue, lab. There's an article on the website that might help you...

mary rosenblum

plotting the short short story.

megger

So a male name isn't enough for a male POV?

mary rosenblum

Yeah, a male name makes the gender of the POV character clear...

mary rosenblum

and you need to do that.

mary rosenblum

Especially if you are writing first person.

mary rosenblum

Readers ALWAYS assign the author's gender to the first person POV character.

mary rosenblum

ALWAYS.

mary rosenblum

If you are writing cross gender, make that character's gender clear in paragraph one.

mary rosenblum

NOT an easy task!

redraven

What do you notice about each of them?

mary rosenblum

Red, I'm not sure what you were referring to?

gwanny

is show something you need to learn to get as you write your first draft? or is it something you worry about in the 2nd?

mary rosenblum

I would try to do it as much as you can in the first draft...

mary rosenblum

and really focus on it in draft two, gwanny.

mary rosenblum

If you don't pay any attention to it, you'll end up doing a lot of rewriting on draft two.

redraven

The people in the mall

mary rosenblum

Ah.

randi-lee

I have a head hopping problem sometimes, and I don't notice

mary rosenblum

You'll get better at catching that with practice, randi.

mary rosenblum

actually, when you start concentrating on show, don't tell...

mary rosenblum

and figuring out what the POV can and will see in each scene...

mary rosenblum

it tends to keep you firmly anchored in that particular head.

randi-lee

I try to restrict it to two hops or less per chapter.

mary rosenblum

Well, shifting pov works fine in novels, but most authors try to do it at chapter breaks.

mary rosenblum

At least do it at scene breaks. You'd be amazed how many readers you 'unseat' when you shift POV in the middle of a scene.

catydorr

mary i'll vouch for the Plotting a short story article--it is a great one to read very clear

mary rosenblum

Good. Glad it worked foryou, caty.

randi-lee

For 1st person you need to anchor in only that head correct?

mary rosenblum

Yes.

mary rosenblum

You COULD do a dual first person POV story, but those voices had better be VERY VERY different.

mary rosenblum

That will be very difficult to pull off.

mary rosenblum

Not impossible, but hard.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun oregon hour!

mary rosenblum

Do join us Sunday for our casual get together here...

mary rosenblum

when we talk about whatever.

mary rosenblum

Same time as the Forum.

mary rosenblum

Remember...first ask yourself what your POV CAN see, and then ask what your POV WILL see.

mary rosenblum

Have a great weekend all.

 

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