Forum Transcripts

Rights 101: What Do You Own, What Should You Sell? 8/6/04

Event start time:

Fri Aug 06 19:04:25 2004

Event end time:

Fri Aug 06 20:38:22 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a great week!

mary rosenblum

I chose tonight's topic in the middle of my interview with Diana Kirk last night...

mary rosenblum

when the topic of Epublishing wanted to get off track and into the topic of rights in general.

mary rosenblum

So I thought this might be a good time to bring up the topic when we can spend the entire evening on it.

mary rosenblum

Rights ARE confusing if you're new to the business and right now E rights are confusing to EVERYONE!

janp

Did you call that musical catagories? You two sure were busy!!!

mary rosenblum

No kidding, Janp. I was jumping up here! Whew!

dbamarsha

I want to fully understand 'rights' so when I submit I know what they are talking about.

kitfox_starchild

what rights should we expect?

mary rosenblum

Let's define 'rights' and what they are, first thing.

mary rosenblum

There are two basic types of work....

mary rosenblum

creative work that belongs to YOU, the author, and work for hire, where your words belong to the person who employs you.

mary rosenblum

If you are writing a work for hire piece...for example, the novel course I am writing for Long Ridge...

mary rosenblum

then all rights belong to the person who hired you. You have no rights to that work, you get paid for putting the word together but the words DO NOT belong to you.

mary rosenblum

Now in a regular story/ariticle/book, you OWN the words. You should never sell them.

mary rosenblum

Instead you sell the 'right' to use those words in a very limited way.

mary rosenblum

You might sell a magazine the right to print your words once in their magazine.

mary rosenblum

You might sell the right to use the same words, later on, to a collection of short stories.

mary rosenblum

Later, you might sell the right to use your words to make a movie, or to be published in another country.

mary rosenblum

Your words might show up in print or as a video game or one the movie screen eight or ten or a dozen times...

mary rosenblum

and each time you are paid for the USE of the words, but the words ALWAYS belong to you.

ccollier

Mary, I just gave one time world rights to Kid Zone, yet

ccollier

this was a reprint which I told them about

mary rosenblum

That's about right for a reprint, christing. And 'world rights' is the new right that publishers who might publish on the internet use...

mary rosenblum

because it covers North American rights and Foreign Rights.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at this...it's translatable!

mary rosenblum

You sold them the right to use your words ONE TIME anywhere on the planet.

mary rosenblum

They cannot publish your words on the internet this month and put them into a print anthology next month.

mary rosenblum

You sold them ONE use.

dbamarsha

Some ask for all rights. Is that ever a good thing to do?

mary rosenblum

Marsha, if you sell All Rights you are selling your WORDS. If those words become a blockbuster movie and make millions, do you know how much you get? Nothing. Nada.

mary rosenblum

You don't own those words any more. You sold them.DO NOT EVER SELL ALL RIGHTS.

mary rosenblum

This is one of the very few NEVERs you will hear from me.

ccollier

this is a hard copy magazine on the stands

mary rosenblum

Okay, Christine, so they have the right to publish it in their magazine, no matter where that mag is distributed ONE time.

mary rosenblum

They cannot use it in a collection of stories from their magazine, unless that right is mentioned in the contract.

mary rosenblum

It often is.

mary rosenblum

When I sign a contract for Asimov's magazine, they have the right to publish my story not only in the magazine...

mary rosenblum

but also in a collection that contains more than 80% stories from the magazine, BUT they have to pay me more money to do it.

ccollier

Mary, what if its a cover story for Cricket or something you

ccollier

feel would be worth all rights

mary rosenblum

Well, you can always sell All RIghts, Christine. But it means you can NEVER use that story again EVER, yourself. Unless they give you a legal reversion of rights letter.

mary rosenblum

Why not change the contract?

mary rosenblum

Most publishers will accept that. Now if you think you won't ever want to use the story again, don't bother.

mary rosenblum

But many of my stories have been published over and over and have earned thousands of dollars in the process.

ccollier

I havent sold all rights but i just wondered what you though

mary rosenblum

What you all don't realize is that just because you get a contract with something like 'all rights' specified, it doesn't mean that the magazine will accept nothing else.

mary rosenblum

If you go to a used car lot to buy a car and the dealer asks for 10,000 for a car you KNOW is worth only 6,000 what are you going to do?

mary rosenblum

Pay 10,000?

mary rosenblum

You could walk away, but most people will offer less than 10,000.

mary rosenblum

Sooner or later, the dealer and the buyer will agree on a price.

mary rosenblum

You can do the same thing with a publishing contract. That's why my agent gets 20% of my gross! She crosses out a LOT of stuff in my book contract.

mary rosenblum

If someone wants World Rights for an online story and it doesn't specify a time limit...write one in. 'All rights for one year after the initial posting...'

mary rosenblum

That's reasonable.

mary rosenblum

if they're not happy with it, they'll call you.

mary rosenblum

If they ask for All rights, try one time world rights. That gives them a LOT of latitude.

mary rosenblum

If they want more, then you can decide if it's worth it to you to turn down the sale, take less money for it, or let them have what they want.

mary rosenblum

I will do different things depending on how valuable I think the story is.

mary rosenblum

If it has limited saleabilitly, the money is good, and I really don't think I'm going to do anything more with it...

mary rosenblum

I'll give away more rights than if I think it's a hot story that will resell numerous times.

helen h

Is there a technique to getting the magazine publisher to amend their contracts if they have a take-it or leave-it policy?

mary rosenblum

Very few publishers are that hard core, helen. If they are, then you have to make that decision. Is the sale worth it to me? If it is, go for it. No shame in selling more than you might. If it's your first sale and you now have a published clip...good!

mary rosenblum

Just be aware of what you are doing.

ccollier

Most likely anyone wanting all rights wont want a reprint

mary rosenblum

Oh, often they do. There are tons of bad contracts out there, where the publisher really doesn't understand contracts either! Mostly this is a problem in small press and a BIG problem in internet publishers!

mary rosenblum

I just looked over a contract for a graduated LR student. What that student signed was an agreement to let the publisher...

mary rosenblum

publish ANY story he submitted for a price 'to be agreed upon'. There was no obligation on the publisher's part, but if they accepted ANY story EVER the contract applied. Not good.

twhorn

if they ask for "All Rights" and you refuse, could you wind up losing the deal?

mary rosenblum

Yes. Possibly. Then you decide if the sale is worth it.

mary rosenblum

It's not likely to happen with a large circulation magazine...They'd have the professional writers organizations on their backsides for a contract like that!

mary rosenblum

But the pro organizations like SFWA, MWA, and the like can't police all the tiny small press markets.

mary rosenblum

Asimovs got boycotted some years back for sneaking in a clause that gave them Erights.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

kitfox_starchild

Is first North American a one time right?

mary rosenblum

First NA serial rights is a magazine right. It grants the publisher the right to publish your piece for the first time in the US, Canada and Mexico.

mary rosenblum

Publish means to distribute for sale or profit...

mary rosenblum

Yes, the internet counts.

mary rosenblum

And no, you don't have to get a check for it to count as 'gain'. If it's a commercial publication...an ezine...you may not get paid, but it's published.

dbamarsha

Would you recommend that we have someone look over a contract before we sign it? Someone who knows what to look for? Especially, those of us who are new?

mary rosenblum

That can get expensive, marsha, and I know how little you make as a new writers!

mary rosenblum

There are tons of very educational sites on the internet that will help you understand contracts and rights.

mary rosenblum

The most comprehensive is the sfwa.org site...they have a contracts section.

mary rosenblum

'SFWA contracts page

mary rosenblum

sfwa.org has a wealth of information about contracts, agents, how to spot scam publishers and the like.

mary rosenblum

You don't need to be a science fiction writer to go there. Book mark it and use it any time you have a question.

ccollier

Dont you think most contracts are open and honest Mary

mary rosenblum

Well, yes and no, christine.

mary rosenblum

Remember that all contracts are written for the benefit of the publisher, not the writer.

mary rosenblum

AND...small press publishers may not know any more about rights than YOU do.

mary rosenblum

While you may sign a contract that essentially sells your words to the publisher, that publisher may never notice or care that you then publish your article/story elsewhere...

mary rosenblum

even though that is now illegal.

mary rosenblum

But what if you become the next Rowling, and you sold All Rights of your first two chapters as a story on a tiny little ezine...

mary rosenblum

Guess what? They're going to sue you for a BIG chunk of your huge profit on the novel!

mary rosenblum

So as I said...if it's a throwaway story..don't worry about it. But if it might not be...worry about it!

mary rosenblum

Educate yourselves.

catydorr

what about "for display only"

mary rosenblum

Legally, you can post your story on your website 'for display only', caydorr, and it does not legally affect your rights.

mary rosenblum

BUT...two problems here.

mary rosenblum

One: Why should anyone buy your story or the magazine its in if they can read it free.

mary rosenblum

YOur editor is not gonna buy any more stories from you if you're giving 'em away, too. HE gets paid because the magazine sells.

mary rosenblum

Two: If that publisher says 'it's published, we'll give you only second NA pay' are you going to spend thousands to sue them over a story?

catydorr

what about bits and pieces of a story-to entice?

mary rosenblum

I'd say that's safe for a personal website. I will be putting chunks of my upcoming novel on my website to entice. :-) That is to the publisher's benefit!

mary rosenblum

Will I ever put an entire story up there? No.

roady

Should a person put that little (c) on poems and things when

mary rosenblum

Roady, lots of people do. Legally that means you have REGISTERED your copyright. You don't need to register it, it is yours the moment you commit your idea to some form of tangible medium...

mary rosenblum

film, tape, paper, computer memory.

mary rosenblum

Copyright registration is mostly useful in terms of infringement lawsuits...you better believe Stephen King registers his!

mary rosenblum

You can visit the US government's copyright website and find out all about it.

mary rosenblum

But you don't need to register your work. It is illegal for anyone to use your words without your permission for 50 years after your death.

mary rosenblum

US copyright FAQ page

cloux

If there is a mag that wants all rights, how likely is it that they will allow you to sell it elsewhere if you ask?

cloux

or allow the article to be reprinted?

cloux

does my question make any sense?

mary rosenblum

Yes. They may.

mary rosenblum

They may ask for all rights because that way they can stick it on their ezine and not worry about anything and maybe they don't know rights very well either.

mary rosenblum

You can ask if you can use it. Good idea to get the 'yes' in writing though. And if they say no, too bad.

owlybear

does the US copyright also include Canadian writers or would we have to do that here?

mary rosenblum

There is the Berne agreement owly, that most countries have signed. Copyright in one country is respected in all the others, BUT you have to do whatever Canadian copyright law requires.

mary rosenblum

Sorry, I should have checked that out. I'm sure you can find it on the internet quickly enough.

helen h

what is the difference between "perpetual and assignable" and "all copyrights" ?

mary rosenblum

Well, let's start with copyright. That is not the same as 'rights' which are in essence a license to use your words. copyright and rights are not the same word.

mary rosenblum

Assignable rights are the rights you can assign. NA rights, first anthology rights, book club rights, movie rights, foreign language rights...

mary rosenblum

perpetual rights are the rights to own your words. Yours unless you assign those perpetual rights...as in you sell All Rights.

dbamarsha

So we should not be afraid to amend a contract?

mary rosenblum

Never. Don' t nitpick, but if the contract wants 'all rights' give them 'First world rights'.

mary rosenblum

It is a very good idea, if you are selling to an ezine, to limit the length of time the story can be on the site. If you do NOT, then they can legally keep it up forever.

mary rosenblum

One year after posting is good.

mary rosenblum

Then they can't archive it and keep it available forever.

waricat

Just what kind of rights do we have with Epublishing?

waricat

Do we have any ownership if a portion of a work is posted?

mary rosenblum

Let me quote you from the SFWA site, vericat.

mary rosenblum

It is unlikely that a contract written today can determine what rights can be economically exploited in the future, how valuable those rights will be, or what company will be in the best position to exploit them. Writers should protect their equity in their creative work by retaining these rights, as they retain movie rights, until they can sell them in the expectation of a profit. Sfwa.org

mary rosenblum

The current difficulties in negotiating electronic rights come largely from genuine ignorance about the value of these rights. The publishers do not want to let rights get away that will be necessary to their future financial health. Neither do we.

mary rosenblum

Most publishers are responding reasonably to reasonable stands on retaining electronic rights. The process sometimes takes time As both sides gain experience, and as the market develops, it will be easier to negotiate a fair grant of rights.

mary rosenblum

In the meantime, we can protect our equity in our creative work by retaining electronic rights, as we retain movie rights, until we can sell them profitably. Sfwa.org

mary rosenblum

There are two types of electronic rights: Distribution rights and adaptation rights.

mary rosenblum

If you sell to an ezine and they post your story on the ezine site...that is distrbution...as is a CD with your book on it.

mary rosenblum

If they use your story in a computer game with graphics, music, and so forth...that is adaptation.

mary rosenblum

You will share profits with the people doing the graphics, creating the music, and prgramming the game.

mary rosenblum

Nobody really knows what the value will be tomorrow.

mary rosenblum

So hang on to as many erights as you can...All Electronic rights may not be a good thing to grant.

mary rosenblum

Mostly, keep it in perspective.

mary rosenblum

If you're talking one 4000 word story and you have sold all rights...well, so what?

mary rosenblum

You know better now. You'll write lots more stories.

mary rosenblum

Is it really likely to become a blockbuster? Nah.

mary rosenblum

So big deal.

mary rosenblum

If your first sale will go to a magazine that wants more rights than you care to give, but hey, you will get great exposure.

mary rosenblum

Maybe it's worth it!

catydorr

actually doesn't most informative article say to not give up e-rights until the very last?

mary rosenblum

yeah, but that's less and less doable, caty.

mary rosenblum

More and more print publishers want at least some Erights so that they can promote on their websites.

kitfox_starchild

What does "all rights reserved" mean?

mary rosenblum

It means you cannot copy this piece in any way, shape, or form without permission.

mary rosenblum

It's a reminder that this is not public domaine.

roe

Is there any way for that person to get out of that contract?

mary rosenblum

Not if you signed it, dear.

helen h

what would you say to a magazine whose contract says "xxx pubs will own all copyrights in the material". especially if they are the largest chain in the genre you work in?

mary rosenblum

Have you tried changing the contract? Here it depends. What is that work worth to you? Is it a fair trade TO YOU to have it published there? I wouldn't sign it, but I want to sell that story several more times. If you are talking novel here, I would certainly not sign it.

mary rosenblum

You can sell movie rights, foreign language rights (some of my books have been published in two or three other countries), anthology rights, book club rights, audio rights...

mary rosenblum

you're giving these all up for that contract and for a book, that is real money. Not so for most short stories.

mary rosenblum

Your typical BASIC movie option...just the right to consider the story for one to three years is 5000 dollars.

mary rosenblum

It is many times that if the movie is actually made.

mary rosenblum

Don't give up your movie rights. I've had mine optioned. Nice check!

mary rosenblum

I've had short stories optioned!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

owlybear

Supposing you sell a story with 'All Rights' and then using the same topic you rewrite it, doesn't it become another story, or can there be repercusions from it by the publisher?

mary rosenblum

Not if it's a significant change, owly.

mary rosenblum

Now a few minor tweaks are NOT significant changes...but this is a very gray area.

mary rosenblum

It seems like a jungle when you start out.

mary rosenblum

But the sfwa site has some good sample contracts you can look at.

mary rosenblum

And most publishers are open to some changes.

mary rosenblum

And when you're staring out, that first sale can be worth a lot!

waricat

I thought they required a certain percentage of change

mary rosenblum

Well, vari, deciding what percentage has been changed is highly subjective. Mainly it depends on whether the publisher feels that your second article is directly competing with the one he bought!

mary rosenblum

Rights seem like a jungle, but they're not so awful as you begin to read carefully.

mary rosenblum

The main thing to consider is this.

mary rosenblum

As you begin to build your name and reputation, you will find that you can resell work.

mary rosenblum

People want your name now, they want stuff you have written and if it was published five years ago, so what?

mary rosenblum

It's new to their readers.

mary rosenblum

That is mainly why you only want to sell temporary use of your work.

mary rosenblum

In particular, be careful to write in a time limit on ezine contracts.

mary rosenblum

When your name is worth money, that story you posted on Littlefiction.com may be very saleable to something like Glimmer Train or Slate.com. But if it's still up on the Littlefiction website....

mary rosenblum

Second rights or reprint rights don't earn you a ton of money but hey, you don't have to do any more work! Free money!

mary rosenblum

It's not this story now that is important to think about, it's this story five years from now!

mary rosenblum

One of my stories has now topped 5000 dollars in income.

mary rosenblum

It has been published in at least one magazine and several anthologies.

ccollier

Congrats Mary, what story is that?

mary rosenblum

Water Bringer, Christine. It was the inspiration for my first novel, although the story isn't part of that novel.

mary rosenblum

When you sign book contracts with Epublishers and POD houses, the main thing to look for there is a way out.

mary rosenblum

You should be able to sever the association at stated intervals if you wish to.

mary rosenblum

Diana mentioned that her publisher has a 'contract review' at stated intervals. I assume that either publisher or author can terminate the contract at that point.

mary rosenblum

Now there is a flip side to being contract saavy.

mary rosenblum

There is a writer in Portland, a friend of mine, who is rabid about his rights.

mary rosenblum

He nitpicks every contract, even if the terms are not likely to affect this particular work at all.

mary rosenblum

I know at least two cases in which the publisher terminated the negotiations. I'd say so far, he's cost himself at least ten grand.

mary rosenblum

Probably more that I don't know about.

mary rosenblum

Now we're not talking one change to the contract here!

mary rosenblum

We're talking four or five exchanges where he was unhappy about little things.

mary rosenblum

So you CAN go overboard about controlling your rights!

mary rosenblum

Again, you decide what matters to you, but do keep those future anthology sales in mind!

waricat

Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face

mary rosenblum

IN this case, that's true, but he's an extreme example. :-)

mary rosenblum

One thing you all don't realize as new writers...and I'm speaking to the fiction writers here...

mary rosenblum

Short fiction pays diddly on a first-sale basis. You might get a whopping 1500 dollars from the very top market.

mary rosenblum

BUT...it can be sold over and over again.

mary rosenblum

As you become a known name, you get requests from editors putting together anthologies.

mary rosenblum

They'll take a story that was published in a magazine three years or five years ago.

mary rosenblum

It will be new to many of their readers and your name is what they want as well.

mary rosenblum

So think of your stories as your stock in trade. if the shelves are bare, you have nothing for the customer who comes knocking.

mary rosenblum

You don't really understand about that resale thing when you start out...I sure didn't!

mary rosenblum

You find out as you start selling that way. You are thinking of your future when you say no to 'all rights'.

mary rosenblum

And if a conference, say, wants to publish a story by me in their souvenir magazine and I don't have time to write one...I have plenty I can let them use.

helen h

do the majority of magazines use contracts? Or do some non-fiction publications use more of the approach of a newspaper and their stringers. you query, write it, they print it, and pay what their usual scale is. all without a formal contract.

mary rosenblum

Reputable publishers ALL use contracts. You are not employed as a stringer or reporter as you are for a newspaper. Even a regular columnist for a paper has a contract...

mary rosenblum

she has a deadline, a definition of what is expected of her, and a stated fee.

mary rosenblum

Now that you don't have publislhers who might operate without one, but it just means you don't have the rules clear if there is ever a dispute.

owlybear

Gee...you mean I might be able to make more money from the articles I've written for the weekly papers for the past 3 years??? Wow..

mary rosenblum

Hey, if you haven't written as work for hire, owly, or given your publisher all rights, sure you should be able to resell those articles.

mary rosenblum

Many of the narrative writers like Patrick McManus or Bailey White. Alice Waters, collect pieces that were originally published in magazines.

mary rosenblum

The first publication is listed on the copyright page, just inside the cover.

mary rosenblum

But check with your paper.

mary rosenblum

You don't want to find out that you signed a paper that granted the newspaper perpetual rights (ie all rights forever).

mary rosenblum

I am much more mindful of my rights now that I have a name that will allow me to sell my work many times. I didn't worry about it at all when I only wanted to make that first sale!

mary rosenblum

And I didn't make any really costly mistakes.

mary rosenblum

But it's worth thinking about, so that you at least know what you are granting and realize that you CAN make changes.

mary rosenblum

Just remember that your publisher must make money from your piece.

mary rosenblum

if they publish on the internet they need World Rights. They can't just buy NA rights if people in Japan are reading the stuff!

mary rosenblum

If they do an online version of the magazine, they need erights to do that.

mary rosenblum

You can grant them erights to publish for a certain length of time in their online magazine. And you CAN call the editor up and ask if you're not sure about a contract.

mary rosenblum

Or email them.

mary rosenblum

Just be polite.

mary rosenblum

They probably arn't trying to cheat you! And most of the time, they'll grant your demands if it doesn't get in the way of what they need for the magazine/anthology, whatever.

speckledorf

Just got leditslip contest results...Roe placed 2nd with a short story, I placed second with my nonfic proposal and dorry received honorable mention for both her entries.

mary rosenblum

Wow, that's GREAT, speck!

mary rosenblum

This was a sizeable contest! Way to go, all three of you!

mary rosenblum

Applause applause!

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon Hour.

mary rosenblum

Do check out the sfwa.org site.

mary rosenblum

It is VERY informative about the business of writing.

mary rosenblum

And it has lots of links to websites where you can check out scams. It also links to the most recent legal decisions about all things related to writing.

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, all.

mary rosenblum

Next Friday I'll be coming to you from Austin Texas, at the SF conference there.

mary rosenblum

And if you're not sure about a contract, you can always email me and ask.

mary rosenblum

IO

mary rosenblum

I'll do my best to give you good advice!

patchworkcat

Mary, completely off topic, but do you know anything about Wiccan rituals? Sweeping a room of neg energy east to west or the reverse?

mary rosenblum

Patch, I know at least one wiccan here in town.

mary rosenblum

I could ask her, if you have specific questions.

cloux

Mary did you get my email today about article publication?

mary rosenblum

Ah, I did. Sorry, Cloux!

mary rosenblum

Cloux is also recently published.

mary rosenblum

Want to tell us where? I checked for your letter and I don't know WHERE I put it, offhand!

mary rosenblum

Congatulations!

cloux

iParenting.com under the Babies Today section

mary rosenblum

That's it! I even remember!

mary rosenblum

Congratulations, Cloux!

catydorr

where do sent published material to get it posted ast LR

mary rosenblum

If you email me your publication news, I'll post it on the Calendar page..I have several people there right now!

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming all!

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, and I'll see you all Sunday at our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

same time same place!

 

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