Forum Transcripts

Revision 101 10/26/04

Event start time:

Tue Oct 26 12:05:09 2004

Event end time:

Tue Oct 26 13:29:34 2004



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Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a great weekend!

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk a bit about revision here today...

mary rosenblum

because that seems to be the biggest stumbling block for a lot of new writers...

mary rosenblum

and we can talk a bit about what kind of revision you might end up donig for an editor, too.

mary rosenblum

There are two types of revision...

mary rosenblum

content revision and line editing.

gail

RevisionSSSSSSSS! :-P If I could ONLY shut my "editor brain" off for a few paragraphs I might get some writing done. HELP! :-)

mary rosenblum

Ah, you're the other side of the fence, gail! Believe me, I have students who can't turn their 'editor brain's ON! LOL

mary rosenblum

Well, it is very very true that editor and writer don't usually fare well together.

mary rosenblum

They tend to squabble over every sentence and that ruins your creative flow!

mary rosenblum

Try making a deal with your editor. You'll turn the entire draft over to it, as soon as you've finished it.

mary rosenblum

In reality, what I mean is, when you catch yourself nitpicking a paragraph to death, slap yourself on the wrist, remind yourself that you will do a BETTER job of editing...

mary rosenblum

when you have the entire piece in context, and MOVE ON.

mary rosenblum

That is an important key.

mary rosenblum

The editing you do before you finish may not be what you need when you can contemplate the piece as a whole.

mary rosenblum

Your editing is much more effective when you have the context to work with.

tkat_2

My 'editor's brain' clicked after the second Weedy Words fact sheet I got from my instructor.

mary rosenblum

Ken Rand's Ten Percent Solution is a good one, too.

mary rosenblum

I have a student who was writing publishable SF stories that were absolutely BURIED in excess verbage.

mary rosenblum

That book clicked for him, and the revision he sent me was about 25% shorter and quite publishable. I suspect he'll sell it to Analog.

mary rosenblum

So what ARE excess words?

mary rosenblum

They are words you DO NOT NEED in order to get the point to the reader.

mary rosenblum

A good editor can remove words from your prose in such a way that you cannot tell they are missing.

mary rosenblum

I had one of those editors for my first three novels. She taught me a LOT about tight writing.

mary rosenblum

If I'd been thinking I would have asked for some examples ahead of time, but I wasn't. :-)

mary rosenblum

Feel free to send me some now, if you want.

gail

I just experienced a "personal growth" seminar which suggested, as an exercise, the use of a rubber band worn on the wrist that could be snapped each time we found ourselves revisiting old behaviour patterns. Your advice made me think of that, and its possible application for the overbearing "editor brain." ;-)

mary rosenblum

That's a cool idea, Gail! See if it works!

mary rosenblum

I may suggest it to some students of mine who also lack an 'off switch' on their editor brains.

mary rosenblum

Hmmm...

mary rosenblum

let me use what you just sent me as an editing example.

mary rosenblum

This is a nice solid paragraph and it's an off the cuff first draft without the slightest bit of revision...

mary rosenblum

and it's actually quite fine.

mary rosenblum

But if I'm your editor and every word counts in my magazine...

mary rosenblum

I'm going to remove any words that I don't think the reader has to see.

mary rosenblum

And this article is slanted to new writers in a writing mag. Our author is

mary rosenblum

I would edit it like this:

mary rosenblum

A recent 'personal growth seminar suggested the use of a rubber band worn on the wrist. Every time the participant performed the unwanted behavior, she snapped the band.

mary rosenblum

Why not try this if you can't turn off that editor brain?

mary rosenblum

Now that is shorter than the original, even if you leave out the part where Gail was addressing me.

mary rosenblum

It says the same thing, but I have simply removed words that the reader was able to infer.

mary rosenblum

'I just experienced'...if the author talks about a recent personal growth seminar, we assume she has been there..so that is not needed.

mary rosenblum

And actually I should ahve removed the 'use of' and made it:..

mary rosenblum

A recent 'personal growth seminar' suggested a rubber band worn on the wrist.

mary rosenblum

The use of is simply redundant. IT doesn't add anything we don't already know. So now our paragraph is even shorter.

mary rosenblum

By simplifying the 'could be snapped by the participant' sentence, I made it a more easily perceived visual...

mary rosenblum

and used fewer words. Every time the participant performed the unwanted behavior, she snapped the band.

mary rosenblum

Now is there really any reason to take this out? What does it matter?

mary rosenblum

Well, it DOES matter and remember, you have already been paid for those words.

mary rosenblum

The editor isn't taking them out to save money.

mary rosenblum

The reason is this:

mary rosenblum

How does print work?

mary rosenblum

It translates into images in our brains.

mary rosenblum

we are a visual species and we SEE the universe.

mary rosenblum

If you're imparting non-visual information, the more quickly we can absorb that information, the more strongly the info connects.

mary rosenblum

Those extra words simply require more effort.

mary rosenblum

It's like scooping up a handful of beach sand with shells in or scooping up a handful of shells.

mary rosenblum

If you have sand and shells, you have to pick the shells out of the sand.

mary rosenblum

if you have shells only...no picking is required.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tory

They really pay you for the words BEFORE editing?

mary rosenblum

Of course, Tory. :-) Of course, that cuts both ways. You can end up ADDING at times, too. You don't get paid extra for those words..

mary rosenblum

so it evens out.

gail

Verbosity is both my gift and my curse :-) -- as your editing clearly points out. THIS, in a nutshell, is the reason I feel obliged to let my "editor brain" cut some of the "dead wood" as I go. However, your comments about perspective on the entire piece has caused a definite shift in that deduction. Thanx! :-)

mary rosenblum

Oh, goodness, Gail, that wasn't excessive at all...

mary rosenblum

But yes, you will do a much more effective job of editing if your editor can concentrate.

mary rosenblum

AND if you have the context to work with.

mary rosenblum

Believe me, I could edit a LOT of published work out there, LOL

tory

Mary, I know one way to write tight is to avoid passive voice. My dilemma is one of my characters is a truma victim who has become VERY PASSIVE and I want to show that in her thinking beofore she goes through the healing. Any suggestions?

mary rosenblum

Tory, you adapt your words to suit the need.

mary rosenblum

For example, if you have a character who is uneducated and talks with a strong regional dialect...

mary rosenblum

you are not going to have that charater use grammar-perfect dialogue, right? Even though that would be 'correct'?

mary rosenblum

Passive voice is a VERY useful tool for creating a languid, passive, slow pace.

mary rosenblum

If I have a scene where I want the pace to see languid, even though I'm going to write tightly, I'll intentionally use passive voice...

mary rosenblum

and it might be just right for your character... but you need to keep the reader engaged, of course.

mary rosenblum

Passive voice is not a 'never' at all.

mary rosenblum

But what you DO need to avoid is using it unconsciously ...as a habit.

mary rosenblum

Most novice writers do.

mary rosenblum

I blame some high school classes for that...where teachers insisted on a minimum page count...

mary rosenblum

and students quickly learn the convoluted language that allows them to stretch three pages of information into a five page paper, LOL.

mary rosenblum

But it's easy for novice writers to feel that a complex and convoluted language style gives their work a 'literary' tone.

mary rosenblum

Rarely.

tally

could you give us an example of passive voice...thank you

mary rosenblum

Sure, Tally.

mary rosenblum

The Americas were discovered by Columbus.

mary rosenblum

In active voice, the subject does the action of the verb.

mary rosenblum

Did the Americas discover anything? Nah.

mary rosenblum

This is passive voice.

mary rosenblum

The active voice version is: Columbus discovered the Americas.

mary rosenblum

Trivial, huh?

mary rosenblum

It's not. :-)

mary rosenblum

Remember that the more instantly and directly we translate words into images or knowlege, the stronger our prose?

mary rosenblum

Think of how you 'see' that scene:

mary rosenblum

Columbus (we see him and his ship)...

mary rosenblum

discovered... (maybe we see him planting the flag...we now know what he did)...

mary rosenblum

the Americas. (We recognized the shoreline...now know what he did).

mary rosenblum

VERY linear.

mary rosenblum

THe AMericas... (Okay, we see a continent)...

mary rosenblum

was discovered by... (Yeah, we're waiting...by whom???_

mary rosenblum

Columbus. (oh.)

mary rosenblum

We can't comprehend what is going on until AFTER we read the whole sentence so there' s a delay...

mary rosenblum

and if you add that second or so of delay to every sentence....you get the drift.

mbvoelker

I think it helps to make revision a habit. I don't make a message board post or send a casual email without taking a fast look to see if I might have said it better. In fact, I tightened this comment slightly.

mary rosenblum

Well, like anything, the more you practice the better you get.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about revision. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

One excellent exercise is to call up a story or article or LR assignment that you wrote, and save it as a new file, so that you still have your original intact.

mary rosenblum

Now, on this new 'exercise' copy...

mary rosenblum

use your 'find' feature on your word processer and look for the word 'was'...or 'is'...if you wrote in present tense.

mary rosenblum

Now see if you can change every sentence to remove that was or is or were or are or would.

mary rosenblum

(Would is another big bad habit!)

mary rosenblum

Occasionally, that 'to be' verb is simply your best option...

mary rosenblum

but most of the time, there IS a better way...

mary rosenblum

and often you can combine two sentences to make it work...reducing your word count.

speckledorf

When revising, how do we balance the telling vs the showing?

mary rosenblum

Essentially, revision is the time to get rid of telling unless you are writing a narrated piece, of course.

mary rosenblum

If you are not writing a narrated piece (YOU the author are telling the story, as in 'Once upon a time.'...)

mary rosenblum

you really don't want telling...

mary rosenblum

Exposition should never BE told.

mary rosenblum

If you are writing in third person, this is the time to check your Point of View.

mary rosenblum

If you want a realistic limited third person POV...

mary rosenblum

your scene needs to be described from your POV character's eyes.

mary rosenblum

If my character is in the kitchen, what can I include in the scene?

mary rosenblum

The stove in front of her, the window that opens into the back yard, the fridge to her left, the sink to her right.

mary rosenblum

NOT the living room visible through the door behind her...unless she turns around.

mary rosenblum

A very common practice of novice writers is to describe the scene as if we are sitting in the theater and watching the movie.

mary rosenblum

But why? The thing that makes prose stronger than cinema is that our readers can ENTER our worlds and live there, too.

mary rosenblum

And if you show us the world from the viewpoint of the theater seat...

mary rosenblum

we are watching a movie, not living the story.

mary rosenblum

Stand in front of your POV character and describe what you see. Do not describe what you can't see...until your POV turns around to look!

gail

MBV makes a good point. Not only can we learn how to edit ourselves through our correspondences, we can also learn how to edit through the messages from others. I can't count the times when I've been confused over "who did what to whom, and when" while reading e-mails from family and friends. While I would NEVER criticize their communiques, I CAN learn from them. I've found many useful editing "nuggets" simply by doing this casual proofread.

mary rosenblum

Actually the very best way to learn to edit is to edit someon else's work.

mary rosenblum

You know your own far too well, and we are all blind to our own weaknesses when we start.

mary rosenblum

But once you can recognize problems in other writers' work, you'll begin to notice them in your own.

tory

Mary--that is the most helpful specific I've heard re: POV. Thanks

mary rosenblum

Thanks Tory. I learned it from Orson Scott Card at a workshop many years ago.

mary rosenblum

It is probably THE most effective way to make your reader feel that he/she is in the scene.

mary rosenblum

We are very conscious of point of view, even if we're not aware of it.

mary rosenblum

And if we are seeing the scene from 'outside' we know it.

mary rosenblum

If we see what the POV sees, then we begin to feel we ARE that POV.

mary rosenblum

Another good exercise.

mary rosenblum

Go pick out a scene with a third person POV and look at it closely.

mary rosenblum

Read your description, imagine the scene and go sit in your character's head.

mary rosenblum

Look through that character's eyes...is THIS what you can see?

mary rosenblum

If not, change your description so that it IS what that character sees.

tory

Mary, re: POV, Sometimes I want to hint at another character's emotions but find the facial description is too long. Any hints?

mary rosenblum

You can reveal a lot of emotion in very few words, tory.

mary rosenblum

A scowl, a flinch, a quick glance...

mary rosenblum

these take up little space but each of these can offer a lot of insight in the context of your scene.

mary rosenblum

Do NOT tell readers what that character is feeling.

mary rosenblum

it violates POV and has much more effect than you probably realize in terms of shattering the reader's ...

mary rosenblum

indentification with your POV.

mary rosenblum

Sorry!

mary rosenblum

Our power went off!

mary rosenblum

But came right back on

gail

Please elaborate: "Do NOT tell readers what that character is feeling." Do you mean the limited POV, or the person they are seeing?

mary rosenblum

Sorry... I was unclear.

mary rosenblum

We of course will know what our POV is feeling...

mary rosenblum

we're in that character's head after all! Let me give you an example of what NOT to do.

mary rosenblum

Bob marched into the room, steaming. "You let Prince out. Don't you dare deny it."

mary rosenblum

'Who me?" Carolyn fluttered her eyelashes. It pleased her no end that Bob was angry'.

mary rosenblum

Now we have both characters feeling here. Let's say Bob is our POV...

mary rosenblum

we have gotten to know him very well, we know how much he loves his dog and how Prince runs when he gets loose...

mary rosenblum

but that simple shift when Caroline is pleased that she has upset Bob...

mary rosenblum

is a shift INTO her POV.

mary rosenblum

Now in a brief example like this...it doesn't really have any effect..

mary rosenblum

because we're not intimate with either character...

mary rosenblum

but in a story where we WERE intimate with Bob..it would fracture that intimacy..

mary rosenblum

and distance us from Bob for awhile.

mary rosenblum

You could SHOW us her emotional response just as easily.

mary rosenblum

"Who me?" Carolyn smiled sweetly. "Now why would I do that?"

mary rosenblum

Most readers ...in the context of the story...will be able to guess that Carolyn is quite pleased with Bob's response...

mary rosenblum

and we haven't used any more words than we did when we told the reader what she was feeling.

mbvoelker

In re: emotions -- you can have your POV character note what he/she thinks the other character is feeling. And, even more fun, you can have the POV character get it wrong. ;-)

mary rosenblum

Exactly, MB. If you're not sure that the reader will guess right, let your POV guess right for them. Or wrong as the case may be.

roe

So it's better to say - He flinched, He scowled at the boy. or With a quick glance backward, she hurried etc.

mary rosenblum

Yes, it really is.

mary rosenblum

It's not merely a matter of conveying information to the reader.

mary rosenblum

The difference between a story that doesn't do much and one that sweeps the reader away is not idea..

mary rosenblum

it is reality.

mary rosenblum

If you think about the stories that moved you...so that you totally forgot you were in your house on the sofa...

mary rosenblum

the idea might have been cool, but what sweeps you away to another universe...

mary rosenblum

is the REALITY of that universe...the characters the setting...everything.

mary rosenblum

If there is a crack running down your living room wall, you notice it right?

mary rosenblum

Every time YOU the author intrude with your voice, you crack that reality.

mary rosenblum

If you say, Robert felt awful about the dog...

mary rosenblum

YOU are telling us how Robert feels and since that doesn't happen in the real world...

mary rosenblum

that living room wall cracks!

mary rosenblum

But if you give us: Robert hung his head. "I...didn't think."

mary rosenblum

We know that Robert feels badly. AND you didn't tell us, we inferred that from the context of the scene...

mary rosenblum

just as we would in real life. We're STILL in that living room and the wall hasn't cracked. We're still in your universe.

joanc

Sydney Sheldon says that he enjoys writing because he is the director, actors etc. When I write a scene, I become that actual character. I don't just write, I become.

mary rosenblum

Most fiction writers I know feel that way. :-) We're just writing the stories we want to share, that's all. LOL

mary rosenblum

A certain amount of 'becoming' your character is really important for good characterization.

mary rosenblum

If you can't 'be' your character how do you know what that charaacter is like?

mary rosenblum

So how do you know if you are intruding? It's not all that easy when you first start out.

gail

POV for me: A scene, as it would be "played" by actors. They wouldn't say, " felt badly about the dog." Instead, there would be scene directions in the margin to exhibit appropriate body language, tone of voice, other setting influences, and the dialogue which expounds the character's emotion, as best THEY could describe.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, gail, only you translate the notes into visuals in prose. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you want to catch your 'authorial voice', go grab one of your scenes...

mary rosenblum

now read it slowly and ask yourself with every sentence...

mary rosenblum

is this what SHE would think? Is this how HE would feel? Is this how SHE would say it?

mary rosenblum

Let's look at an example.

mary rosenblum

Ruanne stretched, warm and snug in her bed, not at all interested in getting up to start the woodstove. It had snowed during the night and the cabin was freezing.

mary rosenblum

Okay, who's thinking or talking here? Not Ruanne. would she actually THINK..'I"m warm and snug in my bed and not at all interested in getting up to start the woodstove...'

mary rosenblum

In those words?

mary rosenblum

I wouldn't.

mary rosenblum

I might think. ooooo..cold. I don't want to get up! Stare at the woodstove and sigh. Wouldnt even think anything...just aware that it's not going to start itself...

mary rosenblum

So how do we let Ruanne do the thinking here?

mary rosenblum

Ruanne stretched and snuggled deeper under the quilt. Cold out there! She stared at the woodstove. Sighed. Took a deep breath and threw the quilt back.

mary rosenblum

Have I mentioned snow? Nope. Why not? How does she know?

mary rosenblum

She hasn't looked out a window...we don't have a window in the scene yet.

mary rosenblum

We could let her wonder...

mary rosenblum

Really cold in here. Ruanne took a deep breath. Snow, last night? She threw the quilt aside...

mary rosenblum

WE simply work at making OUR words sound like HER words.

mary rosenblum

And that way we hide the cracks in the walls of that reality so that our reader doesn't notice them.

mary rosenblum

We are nudging our readers to infer the correct thoughts and feelings through Ruanne's actions and fragmented thoughts.

mary rosenblum

In essence, we are, as Gail says, giving stage directions. :-)

mary rosenblum

But THAT is what makes prose so strong.

mary rosenblum

WE are making those characters move too, us readers.

mary rosenblum

WE are sharing that universe...we are NOT in the theater seats...

mary rosenblum

watching it on a screen. We are right there in the middle of the scene...

mary rosenblum

freezing our backsides in that cabin.

mary rosenblum

So we've covered different types of revision today.

mary rosenblum

We have the most superficial level...simply removing excess words, eliminating unwanted passive voice, that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

Another good exercise is to take a paragraph and rewrite every sentence, trying to make it shorter. Some are going to be as short as they can go...

mary rosenblum

others can be shortened and others can be combined to create a single sentence where you used two or three.

mary rosenblum

The deeper level of revision is your POV revision. Is this what he would actually say? Is this what he actually sees?

mary rosenblum

And finally, the deepest level of revision is the content change...the plot is weak here, fix that, add another character.

gail

Or, if you're MOI, you can make two sentences where once there was one heckuva long 'un. ;-)

mary rosenblum

Well, yes that is the OTHER side of that particular coin, LOL.

mary rosenblum

Seven clause sentences DO tend to make reader eyes cross! LOL

umesh

Mary, Can we get the transcripts of the Chat sessions?

mary rosenblum

Always, umesh. They are posted in Writing Craft: click on Forum Transcripts and select the one you want.

mary rosenblum

I don't know what my powerfailure did to this transcript, though.

mary rosenblum

I may not have all of this Forum, we'll see.

joanc

Mary, this is off topic..re:query When you come across a magazine that doesn't give you an editors name, just submissions editor. What would be the appropriate salutation.

mary rosenblum

You're stuck, joan. What it means is that one of several assistant editors will read it...

mary rosenblum

about all you can do is address it to Dear Submissions Editor...

mary rosenblum

Thank you all for coming! Do drop into the casual chats here on the website...

mary rosenblum

they take place the same time as this forum, on M, W, and Friday mornings.

mary rosenblum

And we just get together to chat about whatever. Or have food fights. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's a great place to get help with a stuck story.

gail

Re: Forum suggestions

mary rosenblum

Yes, gail? I"m always open!

gail

I have a pacing question. I've just read an archived forum transcript from Feb/04 that speaks to this subject, but my particular query was not directly addressed.

mary rosenblum

We could easily do another pacing forum, gail.

mary rosenblum

How about next Tuesday? and send me your pacing question ahead of time if you can't be here...

mary rosenblum

actually, I think I'll make that one of our 'hands on' session...

mary rosenblum

If people send me a paragraph or two, I'll show how to tighten the pacing if needed.

mary rosenblum

Have a good Halloween weekend, all!

mary rosenblum

I'll go post whatever the power outage didn't eat of the transcript!

mary rosenblum

And let my puppy out!

mary rosenblum

See you in the chatroom tomorrow for our casual chat!

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming!

tory

Mary will you be here Fri after hours forum?

mary rosenblum

Yep, Tory. We'll have it as usual.

mary rosenblum

We're going to be talking about what happens AFTER you sell something...what the editorial process is really like.

mary rosenblum

Bye all! See you on the website...oh yes...I just posted news of a new mystery short story market...Crimson Dagger...

mary rosenblum

in New Market Updates.

mary rosenblum

Have a good day!

 

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