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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all had a great
weekend!
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk a bit about
revision here today...
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mary rosenblum
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because that seems to be the
biggest stumbling block for a lot of new writers...
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mary rosenblum
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and we can talk a bit about
what kind of revision you might end up donig for an editor, too.
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mary rosenblum
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There are two types of
revision...
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mary rosenblum
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content revision and line
editing.
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gail
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RevisionSSSSSSSS! :-P If I could
ONLY shut my "editor brain" off for a few paragraphs I might get
some writing done. HELP! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, you're the other side of
the fence, gail! Believe me, I have students who can't turn their 'editor
brain's ON! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it is very very true
that editor and writer don't usually fare well together.
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mary rosenblum
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They tend to squabble over
every sentence and that ruins your creative flow!
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mary rosenblum
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Try making a deal with your
editor. You'll turn the entire draft over to it, as soon as you've finished
it.
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mary rosenblum
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In reality, what I mean is,
when you catch yourself nitpicking a paragraph to death, slap yourself on
the wrist, remind yourself that you will do a BETTER job of editing...
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mary rosenblum
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when you have the entire piece
in context, and MOVE ON.
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mary rosenblum
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That is an important key.
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mary rosenblum
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The editing you do before you
finish may not be what you need when you can contemplate the piece as a
whole.
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mary rosenblum
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Your editing is much more
effective when you have the context to work with.
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tkat_2
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My 'editor's brain' clicked
after the second Weedy Words fact sheet I got from my instructor.
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mary rosenblum
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Ken Rand's Ten Percent
Solution is a good one, too.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a student who was
writing publishable SF stories that were absolutely BURIED in excess
verbage.
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mary rosenblum
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That book clicked for him, and
the revision he sent me was about 25% shorter and quite publishable. I
suspect he'll sell it to Analog.
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mary rosenblum
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So what ARE excess words?
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mary rosenblum
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They are words you DO NOT NEED
in order to get the point to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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A good editor can remove words
from your prose in such a way that you cannot tell they are missing.
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mary rosenblum
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I had one of those editors for
my first three novels. She taught me a LOT about tight writing.
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mary rosenblum
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If I'd been thinking I would
have asked for some examples ahead of time, but I wasn't. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Feel free to send me some now,
if you want.
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gail
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I just experienced a
"personal growth" seminar which suggested, as an exercise, the
use of a rubber band worn on the wrist that could be snapped each time we
found ourselves revisiting old behaviour patterns. Your advice made me
think of that, and its possible application for the overbearing
"editor brain." ;-)
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mary rosenblum
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That's a cool idea, Gail! See
if it works!
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mary rosenblum
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I may suggest it to some
students of mine who also lack an 'off switch' on their editor brains.
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mary rosenblum
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Hmmm...
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mary rosenblum
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let me use what you just sent
me as an editing example.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a nice solid paragraph
and it's an off the cuff first draft without the slightest bit of
revision...
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mary rosenblum
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and it's actually quite fine.
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mary rosenblum
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But if I'm your editor and
every word counts in my magazine...
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mary rosenblum
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I'm going to remove any words
that I don't think the reader has to see.
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mary rosenblum
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And this article is slanted to
new writers in a writing mag. Our author is
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mary rosenblum
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I would edit it like this:
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mary rosenblum
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A recent 'personal growth
seminar suggested the use of a rubber band worn on the wrist. Every time
the participant performed the unwanted behavior, she snapped the band.
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mary rosenblum
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Why not try this if you can't
turn off that editor brain?
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mary rosenblum
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Now that is shorter than the
original, even if you leave out the part where Gail was addressing me.
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mary rosenblum
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It says the same thing, but I
have simply removed words that the reader was able to infer.
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mary rosenblum
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'I just experienced'...if the
author talks about a recent personal growth seminar, we assume she has been
there..so that is not needed.
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mary rosenblum
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And actually I should ahve
removed the 'use of' and made it:..
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mary rosenblum
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A recent 'personal growth
seminar' suggested a rubber band worn on the wrist.
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mary rosenblum
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The use of is simply
redundant. IT doesn't add anything we don't already know. So now our
paragraph is even shorter.
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mary rosenblum
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By simplifying the 'could be
snapped by the participant' sentence, I made it a more easily perceived
visual...
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mary rosenblum
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and used fewer words. Every
time the participant performed the unwanted behavior, she snapped the band.
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mary rosenblum
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Now is there really any reason
to take this out? What does it matter?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it DOES matter and
remember, you have already been paid for those words.
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mary rosenblum
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The editor isn't taking them
out to save money.
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mary rosenblum
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The reason is this:
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mary rosenblum
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How does print work?
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mary rosenblum
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It translates into images in
our brains.
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mary rosenblum
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we are a visual species and we
SEE the universe.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're imparting non-visual
information, the more quickly we can absorb that information, the more
strongly the info connects.
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mary rosenblum
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Those extra words simply
require more effort.
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mary rosenblum
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It's like scooping up a
handful of beach sand with shells in or scooping up a handful of shells.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have sand and shells,
you have to pick the shells out of the sand.
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mary rosenblum
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if you have shells only...no
picking is required.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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tory
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They really pay you for the
words BEFORE editing?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, Tory. :-) Of
course, that cuts both ways. You can end up ADDING at times, too. You don't
get paid extra for those words..
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mary rosenblum
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so it evens out.
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gail
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Verbosity is both my gift and my
curse :-) -- as your editing clearly points out. THIS, in a nutshell, is
the reason I feel obliged to let my "editor brain" cut some of
the "dead wood" as I go. However, your comments about perspective
on the entire piece has caused a definite shift in that deduction. Thanx!
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, goodness, Gail, that
wasn't excessive at all...
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mary rosenblum
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But yes, you will do a much
more effective job of editing if your editor can concentrate.
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mary rosenblum
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AND if you have the context to
work with.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, I could edit a LOT
of published work out there, LOL
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tory
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Mary, I know one way to write
tight is to avoid passive voice. My dilemma is one of my characters is a
truma victim who has become VERY PASSIVE and I want to show that in her
thinking beofore she goes through the healing. Any suggestions?
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mary rosenblum
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Tory, you adapt your words to
suit the need.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, if you have a
character who is uneducated and talks with a strong regional dialect...
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mary rosenblum
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you are not going to have that
charater use grammar-perfect dialogue, right? Even though that would be
'correct'?
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mary rosenblum
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Passive voice is a VERY useful
tool for creating a languid, passive, slow pace.
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mary rosenblum
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If I have a scene where I want
the pace to see languid, even though I'm going to write tightly, I'll
intentionally use passive voice...
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mary rosenblum
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and it might be just right for
your character... but you need to keep the reader engaged, of course.
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mary rosenblum
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Passive voice is not a 'never'
at all.
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mary rosenblum
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But what you DO need to avoid
is using it unconsciously ...as a habit.
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mary rosenblum
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Most novice writers do.
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mary rosenblum
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I blame some high school
classes for that...where teachers insisted on a minimum page count...
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mary rosenblum
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and students quickly learn the
convoluted language that allows them to stretch three pages of information
into a five page paper, LOL.
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mary rosenblum
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But it's easy for novice
writers to feel that a complex and convoluted language style gives their work
a 'literary' tone.
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mary rosenblum
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Rarely.
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tally
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could you give us an example of
passive voice...thank you
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, Tally.
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mary rosenblum
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The Americas were discovered
by Columbus.
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mary rosenblum
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In active voice, the subject
does the action of the verb.
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mary rosenblum
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Did the Americas discover
anything? Nah.
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mary rosenblum
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This is passive voice.
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mary rosenblum
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The active voice version is:
Columbus discovered the Americas.
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mary rosenblum
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Trivial, huh?
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mary rosenblum
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It's not. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that the more
instantly and directly we translate words into images or knowlege, the
stronger our prose?
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mary rosenblum
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Think of how you 'see' that
scene:
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mary rosenblum
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Columbus (we see him and his
ship)...
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mary rosenblum
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discovered... (maybe we see
him planting the flag...we now know what he did)...
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mary rosenblum
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the Americas. (We recognized
the shoreline...now know what he did).
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mary rosenblum
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VERY linear.
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mary rosenblum
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THe AMericas... (Okay, we see
a continent)...
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mary rosenblum
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was discovered by... (Yeah,
we're waiting...by whom???_
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mary rosenblum
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Columbus. (oh.)
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mary rosenblum
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We can't comprehend what is
going on until AFTER we read the whole sentence so there' s a delay...
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mary rosenblum
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and if you add that second or
so of delay to every sentence....you get the drift.
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mbvoelker
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I think it helps to make
revision a habit. I don't make a message board post or send a casual email
without taking a fast look to see if I might have said it better. In fact,
I tightened this comment slightly.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, like anything, the more
you practice the better you get.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about revision. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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One excellent exercise is to
call up a story or article or LR assignment that you wrote, and save it as
a new file, so that you still have your original intact.
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mary rosenblum
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Now, on this new 'exercise'
copy...
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mary rosenblum
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use your 'find' feature on
your word processer and look for the word 'was'...or 'is'...if you wrote in
present tense.
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mary rosenblum
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Now see if you can change
every sentence to remove that was or is or were or are or would.
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mary rosenblum
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(Would is another big bad
habit!)
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mary rosenblum
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Occasionally, that 'to be'
verb is simply your best option...
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mary rosenblum
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but most of the time, there IS
a better way...
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mary rosenblum
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and often you can combine two
sentences to make it work...reducing your word count.
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speckledorf
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When revising, how do we balance
the telling vs the showing?
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, revision is the
time to get rid of telling unless you are writing a narrated piece, of
course.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are not writing a
narrated piece (YOU the author are telling the story, as in 'Once upon a
time.'...)
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mary rosenblum
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you really don't want
telling...
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mary rosenblum
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Exposition should never BE
told.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are writing in third
person, this is the time to check your Point of View.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want a realistic
limited third person POV...
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mary rosenblum
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your scene needs to be
described from your POV character's eyes.
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mary rosenblum
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If my character is in the
kitchen, what can I include in the scene?
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mary rosenblum
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The stove in front of her, the
window that opens into the back yard, the fridge to her left, the sink to
her right.
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mary rosenblum
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NOT the living room visible
through the door behind her...unless she turns around.
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mary rosenblum
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A very common practice of
novice writers is to describe the scene as if we are sitting in the theater
and watching the movie.
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mary rosenblum
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But why? The thing that makes
prose stronger than cinema is that our readers can ENTER our worlds and
live there, too.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you show us the world
from the viewpoint of the theater seat...
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mary rosenblum
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we are watching a movie, not
living the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Stand in front of your POV
character and describe what you see. Do not describe what you can't
see...until your POV turns around to look!
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gail
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MBV makes a good point. Not only
can we learn how to edit ourselves through our correspondences, we can also
learn how to edit through the messages from others. I can't count the times
when I've been confused over "who did what to whom, and when"
while reading e-mails from family and friends. While I would NEVER
criticize their communiques, I CAN learn from them. I've found many useful
editing "nuggets" simply by doing this casual proofread.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually the very best way to
learn to edit is to edit someon else's work.
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mary rosenblum
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You know your own far too
well, and we are all blind to our own weaknesses when we start.
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mary rosenblum
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But once you can recognize
problems in other writers' work, you'll begin to notice them in your own.
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tory
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Mary--that is the most helpful
specific I've heard re: POV. Thanks
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks Tory. I learned it from
Orson Scott Card at a workshop many years ago.
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mary rosenblum
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It is probably THE most
effective way to make your reader feel that he/she is in the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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We are very conscious of point
of view, even if we're not aware of it.
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mary rosenblum
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And if we are seeing the scene
from 'outside' we know it.
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mary rosenblum
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If we see what the POV sees,
then we begin to feel we ARE that POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Another good exercise.
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mary rosenblum
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Go pick out a scene with a
third person POV and look at it closely.
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mary rosenblum
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Read your description, imagine
the scene and go sit in your character's head.
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mary rosenblum
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Look through that character's
eyes...is THIS what you can see?
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mary rosenblum
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If not, change your
description so that it IS what that character sees.
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tory
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Mary, re: POV, Sometimes I want
to hint at another character's emotions but find the facial description is
too long. Any hints?
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mary rosenblum
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You can reveal a lot of
emotion in very few words, tory.
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mary rosenblum
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A scowl, a flinch, a quick
glance...
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mary rosenblum
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these take up little space but
each of these can offer a lot of insight in the context of your scene.
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mary rosenblum
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Do NOT tell readers what that
character is feeling.
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mary rosenblum
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it violates POV and has much
more effect than you probably realize in terms of shattering the reader's
...
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mary rosenblum
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indentification with your POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Sorry!
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mary rosenblum
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Our power went off!
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mary rosenblum
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But came right back on
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gail
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Please elaborate: "Do NOT
tell readers what that character is feeling." Do you mean the limited
POV, or the person they are seeing?
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mary rosenblum
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Sorry... I was unclear.
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mary rosenblum
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We of course will know what
our POV is feeling...
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mary rosenblum
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we're in that character's head
after all! Let me give you an example of what NOT to do.
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mary rosenblum
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Bob marched into the room,
steaming. "You let Prince out. Don't you dare deny it."
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mary rosenblum
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'Who me?" Carolyn
fluttered her eyelashes. It pleased her no end that Bob was angry'.
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mary rosenblum
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Now we have both characters
feeling here. Let's say Bob is our POV...
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mary rosenblum
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we have gotten to know him
very well, we know how much he loves his dog and how Prince runs when he
gets loose...
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mary rosenblum
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but that simple shift when
Caroline is pleased that she has upset Bob...
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mary rosenblum
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is a shift INTO her POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Now in a brief example like
this...it doesn't really have any effect..
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mary rosenblum
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because we're not intimate
with either character...
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mary rosenblum
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but in a story where we WERE
intimate with Bob..it would fracture that intimacy..
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mary rosenblum
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and distance us from Bob for
awhile.
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mary rosenblum
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You could SHOW us her
emotional response just as easily.
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mary rosenblum
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"Who me?" Carolyn
smiled sweetly. "Now why would I do that?"
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mary rosenblum
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Most readers ...in the context
of the story...will be able to guess that Carolyn is quite pleased with
Bob's response...
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mary rosenblum
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and we haven't used any more
words than we did when we told the reader what she was feeling.
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mbvoelker
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In re: emotions -- you can have
your POV character note what he/she thinks the other character is feeling.
And, even more fun, you can have the POV character get it wrong. ;-)
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, MB. If you're not
sure that the reader will guess right, let your POV guess right for them.
Or wrong as the case may be.
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roe
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So it's better to say - He
flinched, He scowled at the boy. or With a quick glance backward, she
hurried etc.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, it really is.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not merely a matter of
conveying information to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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The difference between a story
that doesn't do much and one that sweeps the reader away is not idea..
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mary rosenblum
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it is reality.
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mary rosenblum
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If you think about the stories
that moved you...so that you totally forgot you were in your house on the
sofa...
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mary rosenblum
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the idea might have been cool,
but what sweeps you away to another universe...
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mary rosenblum
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is the REALITY of that
universe...the characters the setting...everything.
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mary rosenblum
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If there is a crack running
down your living room wall, you notice it right?
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mary rosenblum
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Every time YOU the author
intrude with your voice, you crack that reality.
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mary rosenblum
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If you say, Robert felt awful
about the dog...
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mary rosenblum
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YOU are telling us how Robert
feels and since that doesn't happen in the real world...
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mary rosenblum
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that living room wall cracks!
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mary rosenblum
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But if you give us: Robert
hung his head. "I...didn't think."
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mary rosenblum
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We know that Robert feels
badly. AND you didn't tell us, we inferred that from the context of the
scene...
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mary rosenblum
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just as we would in real life.
We're STILL in that living room and the wall hasn't cracked. We're still in
your universe.
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joanc
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Sydney Sheldon says that he
enjoys writing because he is the director, actors etc. When I write a
scene, I become that actual character. I don't just write, I become.
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mary rosenblum
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Most fiction writers I know
feel that way. :-) We're just writing the stories we want to share, that's
all. LOL
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mary rosenblum
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A certain amount of 'becoming'
your character is really important for good characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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If you can't 'be' your
character how do you know what that charaacter is like?
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mary rosenblum
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So how do you know if you are
intruding? It's not all that easy when you first start out.
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gail
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POV for me: A scene, as it would
be "played" by actors. They wouldn't say, " felt badly about
the dog." Instead, there would be scene directions in the margin to
exhibit appropriate body language, tone of voice, other setting influences,
and the dialogue which expounds the character's emotion, as best THEY could
describe.
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, gail, only you
translate the notes into visuals in prose. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to catch your
'authorial voice', go grab one of your scenes...
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mary rosenblum
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now read it slowly and ask
yourself with every sentence...
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mary rosenblum
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is this what SHE would think?
Is this how HE would feel? Is this how SHE would say it?
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mary rosenblum
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Let's look at an example.
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mary rosenblum
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Ruanne stretched, warm and
snug in her bed, not at all interested in getting up to start the
woodstove. It had snowed during the night and the cabin was freezing.
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, who's thinking or
talking here? Not Ruanne. would she actually THINK..'I"m warm and snug
in my bed and not at all interested in getting up to start the
woodstove...'
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mary rosenblum
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In those words?
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mary rosenblum
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I wouldn't.
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mary rosenblum
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I might think. ooooo..cold. I
don't want to get up! Stare at the woodstove and sigh. Wouldnt even think
anything...just aware that it's not going to start itself...
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mary rosenblum
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So how do we let Ruanne do the
thinking here?
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mary rosenblum
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Ruanne stretched and snuggled
deeper under the quilt. Cold out there! She stared at the woodstove.
Sighed. Took a deep breath and threw the quilt back.
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mary rosenblum
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Have I mentioned snow? Nope.
Why not? How does she know?
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mary rosenblum
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She hasn't looked out a
window...we don't have a window in the scene yet.
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mary rosenblum
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We could let her wonder...
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mary rosenblum
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Really cold in here. Ruanne
took a deep breath. Snow, last night? She threw the quilt aside...
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mary rosenblum
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WE simply work at making OUR
words sound like HER words.
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mary rosenblum
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And that way we hide the
cracks in the walls of that reality so that our reader doesn't notice them.
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mary rosenblum
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We are nudging our readers to
infer the correct thoughts and feelings through Ruanne's actions and
fragmented thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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In essence, we are, as Gail
says, giving stage directions. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But THAT is what makes prose
so strong.
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mary rosenblum
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WE are making those characters
move too, us readers.
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mary rosenblum
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WE are sharing that
universe...we are NOT in the theater seats...
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mary rosenblum
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watching it on a screen. We
are right there in the middle of the scene...
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mary rosenblum
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freezing our backsides in that
cabin.
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mary rosenblum
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So we've covered different
types of revision today.
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mary rosenblum
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We have the most superficial
level...simply removing excess words, eliminating unwanted passive voice,
that sort of thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Another good exercise is to
take a paragraph and rewrite every sentence, trying to make it shorter.
Some are going to be as short as they can go...
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mary rosenblum
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others can be shortened and
others can be combined to create a single sentence where you used two or
three.
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mary rosenblum
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The deeper level of revision
is your POV revision. Is this what he would actually say? Is this what he
actually sees?
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mary rosenblum
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And finally, the deepest level
of revision is the content change...the plot is weak here, fix that, add
another character.
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gail
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Or, if you're MOI, you can make
two sentences where once there was one heckuva long 'un. ;-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well, yes that is the OTHER
side of that particular coin, LOL.
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mary rosenblum
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Seven clause sentences DO tend
to make reader eyes cross! LOL
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umesh
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Mary, Can we get the transcripts
of the Chat sessions?
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mary rosenblum
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Always, umesh. They are posted
in Writing Craft: click on Forum Transcripts and select the one you want.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know what my
powerfailure did to this transcript, though.
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mary rosenblum
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I may not have all of this
Forum, we'll see.
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joanc
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Mary, this is off
topic..re:query When you come across a magazine that doesn't give you an
editors name, just submissions editor. What would be the appropriate
salutation.
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mary rosenblum
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You're stuck, joan. What it
means is that one of several assistant editors will read it...
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mary rosenblum
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about all you can do is
address it to Dear Submissions Editor...
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mary rosenblum
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Thank you all for coming! Do
drop into the casual chats here on the website...
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mary rosenblum
|
they take place the same time
as this forum, on M, W, and Friday mornings.
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mary rosenblum
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And we just get together to
chat about whatever. Or have food fights. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's a great place to get help
with a stuck story.
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gail
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Re: Forum suggestions
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, gail? I"m always
open!
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gail
|
I have a pacing question. I've
just read an archived forum transcript from Feb/04 that speaks to this
subject, but my particular query was not directly addressed.
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mary rosenblum
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We could easily do another
pacing forum, gail.
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mary rosenblum
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How about next Tuesday? and
send me your pacing question ahead of time if you can't be here...
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mary rosenblum
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actually, I think I'll make
that one of our 'hands on' session...
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mary rosenblum
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If people send me a paragraph
or two, I'll show how to tighten the pacing if needed.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good Halloween weekend,
all!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll go post whatever the
power outage didn't eat of the transcript!
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mary rosenblum
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And let my puppy out!
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mary rosenblum
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See you in the chatroom
tomorrow for our casual chat!
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming!
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tory
|
Mary will you be here Fri after
hours forum?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, Tory. We'll have it as
usual.
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mary rosenblum
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We're going to be talking
about what happens AFTER you sell something...what the editorial process is
really like.
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mary rosenblum
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Bye all! See you on the
website...oh yes...I just posted news of a new mystery short story
market...Crimson Dagger...
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mary rosenblum
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in New Market Updates.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good day!
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