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mary rosenblum
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Well, I think you're more
likely to get read that way, but you're still losing the readers who won't
even look at the first page!
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chatty lady
|
When you write an epilogue is it
to be labeled as such.
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mary rosenblum
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No, chatty. Not at all. You
can simply make it a separate chapter.
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mary rosenblum
|
You make the time lapse VERY
clear in the first sentence or two: 'Ten years later, Samantha was still
smiling...
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mary rosenblum
|
Or you label it. EIther way.
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bravo6
|
I can make the prologue Chq ,
but then I have a 15 yr gap, and even though that may be acceptable, *I*
don;t read books that do that! :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Yeah, with a 15 year jump, I'd
leave it a prologue, bravo. I did that with my first sf novel.
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mary rosenblum
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Some people read it, those who
didn't got what they needed to know in the story.
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bravo6
|
So "bookends" would be
like the Princess Bride where gramps reads the story to a sick boy?
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mary rosenblum
|
Yep, exactly.
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smeagol
|
I LOVE "Holes" by
Sachar, but think the epilogue totally ruins the story. Are there special
circumstances where a prologue is needed? How would you know when the
reader needs more info. and when more info. will ruin the story or
experience for the reader?
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mary rosenblum
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That's where readers will help
you, smeagol.
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mary rosenblum
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We are never one hundred
percent objective about our own work.
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mary rosenblum
|
Especially when I'm writing
mystery, I trust my seasoned mystery readers to tell me if I've given too
much away.
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t green
|
could you use an epilogue as a
"hook" for the sequel?
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mary rosenblum
|
Sure, t. Although I'd do it
subtly. Me, I ALWAYS toss a little teaser for the next book in there. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Why not? IF there's no next
book, it's subtle enough it won't ruin the end of this book.
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mary rosenblum
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And if there IS a next book
the readers are so impressed with that continuity! :-)
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smeagol
|
But doesn't "Princess
Bride" the book have an epilogue to it? Can't remember, been a while
since I've read it. Could you have the grandpa both giving backstory and
reading in the prologue, or does that really need to be a bookend?
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mary rosenblum
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I suppose you could frame a
story that also has a prologue and epilogue, smeagol.
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mary rosenblum
|
Remember, that frame takes us
out of the story into a narrative 'present'. The narrator can tell the
story, give it a prologue, give it an epilogue, and them you bring us back
to the present.
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mary rosenblum
|
They do different things.
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mary rosenblum
|
The frame shifts the
time/place
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mary rosenblum
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The prologue/epilogue add
events connected to the story in front or behind the body of the story.
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bravo6
|
Clive Cussler uses Prologues and
Epiloguer almost ALWAYS.
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mary rosenblum
|
It's a matter of personal
taste. Me, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Mainly, I want to whet the
reader's appetite and give the observant ones a little 'aha' cookie.
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bravo6
|
- Oops. Hit Enter - Clive
Cussler - He uses the Prologue for a shipwreck that happens 50 - HUNDREDS
of years prior and the Epilogue to just give the MC a good pat on the back,
job well done, kiss the girl and relax... :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Yep. Backstory up front...tie
up loose ends after the end.
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mary rosenblum
|
What epilogues are good for is
keeping your grand climax moment from getting bogged down with all those
loose ends you need to tie up.
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mary rosenblum
|
If you just have too darn many
to tie 'em without slowing that powerful climax/resolution, then add an
epilogue and do it then.
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mary rosenblum
|
I did that with some of the
mysteries...maybe all,can't remember...because I couldn't resolve all the
subplots in the climax chapter...
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mary rosenblum
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without killing the impact.
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mary rosenblum
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The main thing to remember
is...your book must work without the prologue.
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mary rosenblum
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I haven't queried readers
about epilogues. Me, I just make it the final chapter, and there is a big
time jump.
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smeagol
|
Is there a suggested length for
prologues/epilogues if you use them? Is it the shorter the better?
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mary rosenblum
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SHORT!
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mary rosenblum
|
Up front, you want to 'cut to
the chase' and get into the novel plot. If you have a LONG prologue and a
long first, set-up chapter, you may lose your readers.
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mary rosenblum
|
AS to the end, you can go
longer, since by then, hopefully the readers care about the characters and
want to find out what happened to all of 'em.
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mary rosenblum
|
BUT...I wouldn't do it even as
long as your average chapter. You don't want readers bailing before they
hit [the end]
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info
|
The movie 'The Fog', isn't the
old man doing a epilgue in
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info
|
the beginning?
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info
|
I mean a prologue
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mary rosenblum
|
Can't help you info. I am the
worlds worst movie watcher. I don't.
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mary rosenblum
|
Too many books to read yet...
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mary rosenblum
|
But it is a technique that is
used in movie.
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bravo6
|
If the Prologue is chapter
length, but I cut to the chase (The murder right at chapter 1 and just a
few paragrpahs in) would that work? I have whittled the prologue down all I
could, but a realistic mititary op just AIN'T going to be a rush in a bang,
we win. It's going to have to have detailed battles with losses on BOTH
sides! :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
bravo it's just about
impossible in a forum like this to say, 'do this' 'don't do this'. It
simply has to work.
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mary rosenblum
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I can say that something
sounds to me as if it won't work...but when I see it on the page, it might
work very well.
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mary rosenblum
|
You just have to give it to
readers, and AFTER they read it, then ask the pointed questions.
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mary rosenblum
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Did you read the prologue? What
was it about.
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mary rosenblum
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THAT is a telling question
right there. Don't tell them there'll be a quizz ahead of time either. Just
let
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mary rosenblum
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'em go at it.
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mary rosenblum
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Then take the ms away and
administer quizz.
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mary rosenblum
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As if they liked it. Ask if
they wanted it to be shorter? Longer?
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mary rosenblum
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Ask where they really got into
the story...another VERY telling question.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and
more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
|
Jackie asked if editors like
Prologues and Epilogues.
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mary rosenblum
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They tend to have strong
feelings about 'em. Some love 'em. Some hate 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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If they don't want the
prologue you'll fight about it in the editing process.
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mary rosenblum
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It won't cost you a
sale...unless...your prologue is boring and your first chapter is boring.
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mary rosenblum
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Then your editor figures you
write boring and returns the ms before reading chapter three.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to put a prologue
on your piece, do it.
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mary rosenblum
|
Make sure that your first
chapter is strong and really propells us into your universe and you won't
hurt yourself at all.
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mary rosenblum
|
It can be a nice extra hook,
if you use something really vivd and dramatic.
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mary rosenblum
|
And it can add to the
story...for those who read it...if your first chapters aren't that
dramatic...no fight scenes or murders.
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mary rosenblum
|
Now you CAN do it in short
fiction, too.
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mary rosenblum
|
But if you're going to do it
in a short story, make it VERY short.
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mary rosenblum
|
Readers do read the prologue
in a short story.
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mary rosenblum
|
You can do it as a simple
scene with a line break and then start your main story.
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mary rosenblum
|
Or, if your story is fairly
long, say over 10,000 words...
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mary rosenblum
|
you can label it Prologue and
then label your scenes the way you would label chapters...
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mary rosenblum
|
either with numbers or
headers.
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mary rosenblum
|
That can actually be an
eyecatching way to format your long story.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
It seems to work better if you
have pretty strong and dramatic scene breaks...or do a lot of POV shifts.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and
more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I think we've sort of run out
of questions on prologues and epilogues. :-) Any other questions you'd like
me to try and answer?
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|
realityczech
|
What is your opinion regarding
chapter titles? What do editors think of them?
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mary rosenblum
|
I love 'em, personally, and am
envious of the person who can come up with not just ONE good title, but
fifteen or twenty five! Wow!
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mary rosenblum
|
I think most editors are fine
with 'em. If they're not, they'll ask you to remove 'em don't worry.
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mary rosenblum
|
Things like prologues and
chapter titles for the most part aren't going to cost you a sale.
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mary rosenblum
|
Well, the prologue if it is
long and boring, followed by a long and boring chapter one...
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mary rosenblum
|
Remember that the editor is
looking for a powerful story that will sell millions of books.
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mary rosenblum
|
Ms Editor can fix things like
chapter titles and prologues.
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mary rosenblum
|
They are window dressing.
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mary rosenblum
|
she will read for power and
story....and strong writing.
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mary rosenblum
|
Mostly, your first chapter or
two will sell your book...or not.
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mary rosenblum
|
I hear that over and over from
editors I know.
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mary rosenblum
|
Go to the writing panels at
conferences and you'll hear the same thing.
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|
patchworkcat
|
Is there a general rule about
chapter length?
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mary rosenblum
|
Chapter length is probably THE
most frustrating issue in writing!
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|
mary rosenblum
|
No, there are NO rules.
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mary rosenblum
|
Drove me NUTS when I finally
tackled my first novel.
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mary rosenblum
|
It is entirely up to you. It
is a very good place to switch POV.
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mary rosenblum
|
Try not to switch it in the
middle of a chapter.
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mary rosenblum
|
YOur chapters do not all have
to be the same length. They will vary some...
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mary rosenblum
|
and a very short chapter...a
page or two...highlights the importance of the scene.
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mary rosenblum
|
I have seen some one sentence
long chapters.
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mary rosenblum
|
They worked.
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mary rosenblum
|
Chapters allow your reader a
place to pause.
|
|
patchworkcat
|
Would it make sense to just
write the story and then come back later and figure out where to put in the
Chapter breaks?
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mary rosenblum
|
You could do that. They have a
practical advantage, too, patch.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can create a separate file
for each chapter.
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|
mary rosenblum
|
Saves you from working with a
350 page long single document!
|
|
patchworkcat
|
That's true. I've been doing
that. I suppose in the initial stage those Chapter beginnings and endings
are written in stone. They can be changed in the rewrite.
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mary rosenblum
|
Nothing is written in stone,
patch. I routinely move chapters around, delete, insert new ones, rename...
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|
racemup
|
My instructor advised me to
change the name of my MC,
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You know, I rarely do, because
once you name a character that is part of the reality of the character...
|
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mary rosenblum
|
But I do occasionally. Had a
writer in the workshop with a character named...Chito.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
I head Cheeto after the second
paragraph!
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|
mary rosenblum
|
And it wasn't a humorous
story. Suggested a different name there. Giggles at the wrong place are not
desirable!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I had to change one AFTER I
had completed the first draft of my first novel..was the main character!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Found out that a SF fan in
Seattle had the same name! Taht was way too close to home for comfort...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so I reluctantly changed it.
Took me a long time to think of him by the new name.
|
|
racemup
|
Christian Longo. Must I change
the name of his victims, too
|
|
racemup
|
and the names of places?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Oooh. That's a toughie, race. The
'true crime' people use real names all the time.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The fine legal line of liable
and public domaine is the turf of a lawyer. You might go read the
transcript of my interview of Daniel Stevens,. He's a publishing lawyer and
he talked about this a lot.
|
|
patchworkcat
|
I mean are not written in stone
|
|
zany
|
In the course of LRWG with
individual instuctors wouldn't different instructors having different
viewpoints teach differently on writing how would you know if you have the
right instructor?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, you'll know, zany. You
and your instructor won't work well together. LR really tries to match
student to instructor, but at times...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
it doesn't click.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you are routinely not happy
and don't agree with what your instructor has to say...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
talk to Student Services or
Counselor Services. You can get another instructor. :-) I pick up...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
a lot of transfers who decide
after the course starts that they want to write in a genre their instructor
knows nothing about...say SF.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So they get transferred to me,
because I can help them with their SF stories.
|
|
zany
|
not that i am not happy but
sometimes wonder what another instructor would say about my writing thanks
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, everybody will say
something slightly different about your writing, zany. That's were a good
critique group helps.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You get a range of comments
and opinions.
|
|
realityczech
|
So what kinds of things
(character names, chapter titles, prologues, etc.) are editors open to
arguing about? Where should we as writers put our foot down and where
should we give in?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Most editors are pretty
flexible about everything, reality.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Editors are not there to
rewrite your story. If they could do that they would be writers.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But they are there to help you
make this story as strong as it can be.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And they are experienced.
Mostly they tighten prose...take out words without changing content.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But they will also catch logic
flaws and tell you where your story seems weak, or your characterization
seems flawed and so forth...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and ask you to perhaps make
specific changes to those places.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Generally, I get a list of
questions back from the editor about details on specific pages.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It might be a blue Ford pickup
when the same character drove a blue Chevy pickup a hundred pages back...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or a climax scene that seems
to rush past too fast.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You make changes and send them
back with the pages you changed.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I've learned a lot from
working with editors.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Jim Turner, editor of my
Arkham House story collection REALLY taught me a lot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
We argued about a lot of
points. Sometimes he was right, sometimes I was right.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
He was the one who put finger
on the...lessee..about the fourth story I had published and told me...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
this is where you figured out
how to write a story. And he was right! That was EXACTLY the story where I
thought...Hey, I get it. I know how to DO this now!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I really miss him. I'd love to
do another collection with him.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Ellen Key Harris, editor of my
first SF novel taught me how to write tightly.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I thought I already did!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
She could take about 20% of
the words away and I couldn't tell what was missing.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Guess I didn't need 'em.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'd had poor editors, too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They don't do much except
catch typos.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But mostly they have been
good.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, we've about used our our
Oregon hour. Any last questions?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'll be at the World SF
Convention from Sept 1 - Sept 7.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It shouldn't affect the
Forums. I'll make the casual chats as often as I can.
|
|
patchworkcat
|
Not a question, just a comment.
This has been really helpful this evening. Thanks!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Glad it helped, patch!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
See you all Sunday for our
casual chat, same time same place!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
For newcomers, that's where we
get together and just talk about writing, brainstorm stories, or what have
you.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's lots of fun. Do join us!
|
|
realityczech
|
where is the world SF convention
being held?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Boston this year, reality. The
Fleet Center.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'll post the transcript of
the Forum in the usual place:
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts. Have a great weekend, all!
|
|
catydorr
|
Very informative mary thank you
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Glad it helped. Good night
all! See you Sunday!
|