Forum Transcripts

Portraying Character in First Person: 9/28/04

Event start time:

Tue Sep 28 12:03:34 2004

Event end time:

Tue Sep 28 13:31:41 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all! I hope you've had a fine weekend! Ready to do all that writing as the weather worsens?

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about first person POV here. I know we've talked about it before, but it bears repeating...

mary rosenblum

because a lot of aspiring writers tend to use First Person as their main POV.

mary rosenblum

And this is problematic, because very few novice writers do First Person well.

mary rosenblum

It tends to be more difficult than Third, even if it seems easier.

mary rosenblum

And the reason is characterization.

mary rosenblum

If you're not aware of characterization in FIrst Person, it simply doesn't happen and YOU are the main character.

mary rosenblum

Which is fine if you could be the main character, but if your MC is supposedly a tough, street-wise skateboarder about 20 years old...

mary rosenblum

and the character speaks and thinks like a 40 year old college professor...uh oh.

jackie7777

So novice writers should use third person POV?

mary rosenblum

You don't have to. But you do need to pay attention to how to do First Person well. If you just do it without thinking...

mary rosenblum

you will simply use yourself as your POV character and that may not work.

mary rosenblum

Everyone has a favorite voice. Mine is third, but I do First intentionally when the story benefits from First.

tally

ask> can you switch back and forth effectively?

mary rosenblum

You meen between stories, tally, or within a story?

mary rosenblum

Ideally, you should be fluent in both First and Third person as a writer.

tally

Within.

mary rosenblum

You CAN switch back and forth within a story, but it is difficult.

mary rosenblum

Your breaks need to be very clear so that you do not confuse the reader. And it rarely works to switch from third to first using the same character.

mary rosenblum

You can have a character telling the story, and then switch to say, a cinematic third person scene where we see things going on without our First person POV character's presence...on

mary rosenblum

but you really really need to make that transition very very strong and clear.

tally

If you are setting the story up/third person, then the mc is pov?

mary rosenblum

Nearly always, tally.

mary rosenblum

POV means Point of View and that means we are experiencing the story through that character's perspective.

mary rosenblum

In First, our MC is narrating the story...either 'directly' as he/she lives the events, or 'indirectly' as he/she tells us about an event from the past.

mary rosenblum

In third person, the scene is simply described in terms of what the MC sees, hears. smells, tastes, thinks, feels, says.

rock

Can you exlain what you mean by beneficial in the story?

bravo6

Other than seeing the MC's thoughts, what other advantages are there to FP-POV?

mary rosenblum

Yes and yes. Actually, Bravo, we know the MC's thoughts even more precisely in Third, since the MC in First will only tell us what he is thinking if he chooses to...

mary rosenblum

and the Third MC has no choice. We just look into her head and know her thoughts. So THird tends to be the more transparent POV>

mary rosenblum

But there ARE reasons to use First.

mary rosenblum

If your story is very internal, so that the MC will do a lot of thinking or internal monologue...why not simply use first?

mary rosenblum

If there is limited or no action, an interesting and engaging voice can help hold reader interest even if not much is going on 'on stage'.

mary rosenblum

Both are good reasons to use FIrsts.

mary rosenblum

AND...the First MC can lie to the reader. You can't do that well in Third...not without ticking off most of your readers.

bravo6

I've seen Mystery that is almost ONLY the MC's POV in 3rd person. But most fiction I read has mutliple POV's in 3rd...

mary rosenblum

Most novels use multiple Third POVs...which is why a FIrst person novel tends to be MUCH more difficult to pull off...although you see it in the Mystery PI novels a lot...

mary rosenblum

think Raymond Chandler.

mary rosenblum

But if you do it, your character's voice needs to be interesting enough to keep readers from getting bored before the end of your 350 pages!

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

t green

I very rarely see a novel written in present tense first person. is there a reason for this? what genres would use this type of tense/pov?

mary rosenblum

Well, the First person question I just answered...it's hard not to bore the reader. But present tense makes most editors outside the literary/mainstream genre nervous.

mary rosenblum

Past tense is invisible to readers. We're used to it and we just don't notice it at all. First person is far less common in fiction and we notice it.

mary rosenblum

So you tend to see it in books where style is a large part of the book.

curseofthe44

I'm glad that you have selected this topic, as I have two stories that I am writing in first person. One is based in part on a true occurance, the other is not. I try to image or use my own life experiences to bring my character to life. Is this an okay way to go about it?

mary rosenblum

Sure. That's how characterization is done. Write what you know. You find similar experiences, feelings, actions and then you exaggerate them and expand them to create what you need for your character.

mary rosenblum

You may never have stabbed anyone, but you've probably really lost your temper at some point in your life...so you extrapolate on that moment of ...

mary rosenblum

rage when you said something you shouldn't have so that you can imagine the rage that resulted in the stabbing.

jackie7777

How can I keep my personal views separate from the MC

mary rosenblum

That's part of what you learn as a writer, jackie.

mary rosenblum

You have to separate yourself from your characters or your characters will all be you, and some won't seem real at all.

mary rosenblum

They won't fit the external persona you have created...like our street wise skateboarder who sounds and thinks like a 40 year old professor.

mary rosenblum

Not gonna seem very real....

mary rosenblum

A great exercise is to create a POSITIVE character who embodies traits you do not personally like.

mary rosenblum

Being able to like a character for who he or she is, but not like some of the things they do or think personally, is a real challenge.

mary rosenblum

GOOD writing exercise.

mary rosenblum

Start with something simple...you don't like smoking, so have your very positive MC be a smoker.

deb1234

When it is your personal story, and you only have 1,000 words, how can you get characterization?

mary rosenblum

Aha...here we get to the meat of the issue. How DO you convey characterization in First person.

mary rosenblum

You have a lot of options in Third: we can see the character blanch, shiver, glare, tense up when someone starts to get angry...

mary rosenblum

slam on the brakes to miss a dog crossing the street...we learn a lot by seeing that person in action.

mary rosenblum

BUT...when was the last time you said aloud or even thought coherently about yourself as a person?

mary rosenblum

When was the last time you thought, 'I'm a well adjusted man in early middle age, happy with my family, who finds real satisfaction in volunteer work with kids.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, REAL realistic thought, that! LOL

mary rosenblum

But somehow we have to get that to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Well, your main tool in FIrst person is...the MC's voice.

mary rosenblum

When you meet a stranger for the first time, you assess that person's dress and body language and you learn a lot, but then what?

mary rosenblum

Mostly we listen. We notice that person's word choices, and we learn how they feel about politics, kids, dogs, other races by the adjectives and adverbs they use.

curseofthe44

Can you give an example of how to weave first person POV thoughts into surrounding narrative?

mary rosenblum

Well, curse, there is no surrounding narrative in First person. It is entirely that MC's thoughts, spoken to us/herself. And out-loud dialoge.

mary rosenblum

So if the MC is not speaking out loud to another person, it IS his/her thoughts...

mary rosenblum

Unless you have your MC telling a story out loud to an audience and then that MC tells us his/her thoughts:

mary rosenblum

Here's an example..

mary rosenblum

I look up and Cary's walking into the room. I haven't seen her since she was ..oh, maybe ten. Wow, what a looker? How did that skinny kid turn into this bombshell anyhow? My tongue wants to hang out and hey, I could be her grandfather. I might BE her grandfather for that matter.

mary rosenblum

This is our first person narrator talking to us and to himself. He's not saying any of this out loud. But as he talks to himself/us, we see Cary walking into the room. We don't...

mary rosenblum

know exactly what she looks like yet, just that she's gorgeous and used to be a skinny kid, and our POV is clearly quite a bit older and she is probably late teens/early twenties.

tally

ask>don't you have to have some narrative?

mary rosenblum

You do, Tally. First person is all narrative.

mary rosenblum

For those of you who are confused...narrative means 'told words'.

mary rosenblum

In first person, your MC tells the story...it is all FIRST PERSON NARRATIVE.

mary rosenblum

In third, you have narrative told by the author. We can make it SEEM as if the readers are seeing the scene for themselves...

mary rosenblum

by using a 'show, don't tell' technique, but it is still narrative.

mary rosenblum

We can also let the author tell the story in his/her own voice. That is narrative. We use the term narrative in confusing ways.

mary rosenblum

The only thing that is really not narrative is dialogue.

mary rosenblum

But, for example, 'Narrative Third Person' means that the author is telling the story, rather than using 'show, don't tell' and a Limited Third person POV to let the reader 'see' the action.

mary rosenblum

For those of you that find this third person/narrative stuff confusing, there is an article on Third Person in all its forms in Writing Craft: The Plot Thickens.

mary rosenblum

Third Person POVs

tally

ask>what i mean is, description/action/not FP thoughts

mary rosenblum

Never in first person, tally.

mary rosenblum

It is always the MC's version of action and description. That is why First Person is so limited as a form.

mary rosenblum

If you want to describe the lovely English Cottage garden in detail...

mary rosenblum

and your First Person MC could care less about flowers, he will just call it a garden and nothing more.

mary rosenblum

No description can work because HE won't describe it for us. He doesn't know a rose from a tulip so he CAN'T describe it in detail for us. It is merely a garden to him.

ducky

I'm writing a first person short story right now. I'm bringing out the MC in what she says about the situation.

mary rosenblum

That's exactly how to do it ducky! And hey, long time no see! Nice to see you here!

mary rosenblum

If, for example, we have an old man walking through a park and he notices the 'snottly little brats' littering the ground.

mary rosenblum

We know how HE feels about little kids, right?

mary rosenblum

But if he stops and thinks with a sigh about how much that little boy standing on the sidelines with the curley hair reminds him of his grandson...

mary rosenblum

and how much he misses having the grandkids underfoot...well we know how HE thinks about kids.

tally

ask>...Ricky jumps out of bed when he hears door slam...

tally

says..."what the hell is going on?"

mary rosenblum

That's good showoing, tally. It IS third person, you realize, yes? You might try leaving out the 'says'. Believe me, we know he said it!

curseofthe44

How do I keep the reader from being confused between the spoken words and the "thought" words?

mary rosenblum

In First Person, curse, just as in Third, you use "" marks to set off spoken words. Then you simply make it clear to the reader.

mary rosenblum

"I guess I should show up, Jimmy." Like heck I will, I'm not stupid, but hey, Jimmy is. "Save me a seat, okay?"

mary rosenblum

The reader shouldn't have any trouble figuring out what our POV says out loud to Jimmy and what he is thinking.

roe

5.8 earhquake in CA

mary rosenblum

Yikes! I hope we didn't lose anybody! That's a bit of a jolt!

mary rosenblum

And St Helens is rumbling again....Hmmm. Hope the west coast is still here tomorrow!

tally

How do make time passing effective/10 years later?

mary rosenblum

The simplest way is to simply let the MC tell us: Sam and I had a happy ten years together. Then a stroke took him one night and all of a sudden I was alone again.

tally

MC commits murder/ continue story 10 years later?

mary rosenblum

Do the same sort of transition, tally. When nothing showed up in the paper, I knew I got away with it. So I moved to Florida and spent the next ten years fishing. Boring, but who'd ever look for me there?

mary rosenblum

You simply let the MC tell us briefly what has gone on during the elapsed time. It can be more than a sentence, but I wouldn't do more than a paragraph or maybe two at the most.

mary rosenblum

Readers want to get on with the story.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Tally, I gather that your MC was a child when your story begins and is an adult for the latter part of the story.

mary rosenblum

If you are going to do this, you're probably going to want your First person voice to be that of an adult...

mary rosenblum

and you will be using that indirect first for part of the story at least, since our MC is telling us about events that happened long ago.

mary rosenblum

Although you can switch over to direct first person...the MC thinking to himself as events happen...once we catch up to the present.

mary rosenblum

It will be very hard to do a child's voice for the first part and an adult voice for the second part without jolting the reader out of your POV.

mary rosenblum

One benefit to an adult POV telling us about a childhood event is that we get that MC's perspective on the event...one that the child would not have had...AND that MC can tell us any facts that will increase our understanding of that earlier event.

mary rosenblum

Well, Tally, think of a friend asking you, 'What is your book about?" Your answer is the summary.

mary rosenblum

Sorry, your question...what is a summary...didn't come through here.

tally

Sometimes childs pov evokes more emotion/don't you think?

mary rosenblum

A child's POV can be very powerful, but it is the First Person POV that I probably see done poorly the most often.

mary rosenblum

The hard part for many adult writers is not just to acquire a child's voice, but to see the world the way a child sees it.

mary rosenblum

You do not see the same world now that you saw as a five year old.

mary rosenblum

You had your own reasons for the way things worked...and now you know differently.

mary rosenblum

The boogy man under the bed is no longer real to you, you know what Daddy does at the office all day, you know what divorce means in the long term.

mary rosenblum

So most adult novice writers load their five year old with all that mature world knowlege and the kid sounds like an adult.

mary rosenblum

If you can truely capture the way a child looks at the world, it is a VERY powerful voice.

mary rosenblum

I think Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird, although she is a very mature kid, still works very well as a child narrator.

mary rosenblum

Which is one reason the book has lasted as long as it has, I suspect. Her naivete allows readers to form their own conclusions.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Remember that our character's every sentence will reveal his/her character to us.

mary rosenblum

But one very important exercise to do, before you begin that First Person story...

mary rosenblum

is to clarify for yourselves just how your MC thinks, feels, sees the world, and what he/she does NOT know.

mary rosenblum

If you just start writing, focusing on the plot, on what happens next, your first person MC WILL be you.

mary rosenblum

That' s not a big deal in your first draft. You're busy nailing the two by fours together to build a house here...

mary rosenblum

don't worry about the wallpaper yet!

mary rosenblum

But later on, you DO need to choose that wallpaper.

mary rosenblum

On your second draft, say, start thinking about every paragraph.

mary rosenblum

Is this really how THIS character would think? Would say this?

mary rosenblum

Our old man walking through the park...kids pick his flowers and spray paint his house with graffiti. Would he really notice that 'cute kid with freckles'? Do you really think he'd see a 'cute kid' when a kid just trampled his favorite rose bush?

tally

I want the reader to think..aww poor kid early,but later..hmmm...the reader will have mixed feelings.

mary rosenblum

This is one of the reasons to use First Person, tally.

mary rosenblum

As I said earlier, Third Person is a transparent POV. We see into the character's head so he/she can't lie to us.

mary rosenblum

But since the First Person MC is telling us the story, he/she can lie like a rug! So in your case...

mary rosenblum

the MC can tell us about his childhood, how abused and miserable he was, and how he is only doing what God asks him to do...

mary rosenblum

and we can slowly begin to realize that this man is a serial killer who has convinced himself that what he does is right.

jr souza jr

This may be too much to ask but can you give examples of direct vs indirect 1st POV and are they different than limited, omnipotent 1st POV?

mary rosenblum

Limited and omnipotent first person may mean something similar, souza. Direct and indirect are my own lables...

mary rosenblum

they simply mean that we either share the action directly with the MC or we learn about it later...indirectly...as the MC tells us about past events.

mary rosenblum

Okay. Here's the indirect version: I was ten and I remember it like yesterday. Here I was up on the barn loft, getting ready to swing down on the rope into the hay -- that was our favorite game, even though Mama promised to tan our hides if she caught us at it -- and all of a sudden there's this noise like thunder and maybe a steam engine right over my head on the roof. I sure jumped, let me tell you..

mary rosenblum

Darn near fell of the beam and of course, let go of the rope. So now I was stuck. And then this big, shiny blue claw pokes through the old shingles and they start falling off the roof like leaves.

mary rosenblum

That's our MC telling us about this event in the past. Okay..one thing right here... We know he survived right? He's here to tell us about it!

mary rosenblum

Okay, now we'll plop ourselves up on the beam with the kid as it all happens. I tend to use present tense for direct first since it makes the immediacy of the events more clear.

mary rosenblum

I'm up on the beam, getting ready to swing, just waiting for Carly to get out of the hay pile. She's so slow...but she's a girl. And she finally gets out of the way and I grab the rope and then...there's this crashing over my head and I think of the steam engine roaring up from the mine and I think for a second it's falling on me and I nearly wet myself and I let go of the rope.

mary rosenblum

Everything shakes and I just flop down on the beam and maybe I'm screaming and then this...this big blue claw just sort of pokes through the roof...

mary rosenblum

and wood and stuff is falling all around and Cary's screaming or maybe it's me and this...eye...looks in at me.

mary rosenblum

As you can see, these are VERY different narratives, and very different characters telling us the story. We have a kid and the adult who, for example, knew that the wood and stuff were shingles...

mary rosenblum

and had the leisure to compare them to shedding autumn leaves.

tally

Which is more effective/present or past tense ?

mary rosenblum

In your case, Tally, since your POV is probably telling about childhood events after the fact, you're most likely going to find that past tense is less confusing to the reader.

tally

Can't you mix it up and make it work?

mary rosenblum

If you can make it work. If your reader is confused or thinks that you have two different characters here, or if they are not engaged by one of your 'voices' your story may not work.

mary rosenblum

Remember there is only one rule for fiction: The story must work.

mary rosenblum

If it works, then what you did is the correct thing to do.

mary rosenblum

If it does not work, then what you did is not the correct thing to do.

mary rosenblum

Those are THE rules.

speckledorf

So what was it? Angy crab? Alien? Run away steam shovel?

mary rosenblum

I don't know! LOL Personally, I think it's a dragon in Appalachia.

mary rosenblum

But take a look at the two examples. There are a couple of illustrations of that 'adult' versus 'kid' POV here.

mary rosenblum

Remember that this is the same person speaking. But when he was ten, he knew that roofs were shingled but the ability to instantly identify the debris raining down around him wasn't there. It was just stuff. And he doesn't think of the barn area as a loft.

mary rosenblum

He's just up on a beam.

mary rosenblum

Labels are not a big deal to him.

mary rosenblum

But our adult puts the right labels on things.

mary rosenblum

If you want to write strong child POV, listen to kids that age.

mary rosenblum

Notice how many specific labels they use as opposed to 'that green stuff' or 'things' or 'school stuff'.

mary rosenblum

To that six year old, Daddy's office is just a universe where he goes when he's not home, unless that kid helps out on the job.

mary rosenblum

An older kid might know that Daddy's a lawyer and goes to court.

mary rosenblum

World view is a powerful window onto character.

mary rosenblum

A rural woman who has lived all her life on the farm and never reads the news or watches TV will see a different world than you do, and her words should reflect that.

mary rosenblum

So should her vocabulary! If she glibly talks about computers, and hard drives as she plants turnips I sure want to know how she became so knowlegible!

mary rosenblum

If you love to do First Person, then do it. But DO think hard and long about your MC.

mary rosenblum

What is his/her education? WHat is her world view? How does he feel about people?

mary rosenblum

Oh, by the way...

mary rosenblum

on Friday, we're going to do one of our 'hands on workshops'...

mary rosenblum

this one on 'openings'.

mary rosenblum

I invite you to bring your opening paragraph...short ones, please, a few sentences only....

mary rosenblum

and I'll do a critique of them in terms of a strong or weak start and why.

mary rosenblum

If you have no problem sending me long questions, you can cut and paste your opening into the question bar here...

mary rosenblum

but if you have to use /ask or send me short bits, then email me your paragraph (SHORT remember)

mary rosenblum

and I'll put them up here for you. You can email them to me at maryrsn@comcast.net and DO put PARAGRAPH in the subject line so I don't delete it with the spam avalanch I get every day !

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all! And do join me on Thursday for my interview with Steve Hamilton.

mary rosenblum

He is a mystery writer who is selling very well, and will have a lot to say about mystery today.

roe

Is there a limit we should send like one per person?

mary rosenblum

Yes, I think one per person is all. I may get too many to do as is! If so, I'll do a second sesson later on.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all!

mary rosenblum

See you tomorrow for our casual chat, same time same station! LOL

janp

Thank you for another great Tidbits on Tuesdays. This one sure fits a story under construction!!!

mary rosenblum

Hey, I like that title, Janp. :-) I may just start calling this Tidbits on Tuesday! Glad it helps.

curseofthe44

Is this during the day or in the evening?

mary rosenblum

The casual chats are the same time as this forum, curse. The interviews are in the evenings.

mary rosenblum

See you all on the website. I'll post the transcript of the session in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

curseofthe44

Thanks, Mary. If I can't attend, can I email my opening beforehand?

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, curse.

mary rosenblum

bye all! have a good week!

 

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