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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all! I hope you've had
a fine weekend! Ready to do all that writing as the weather worsens?
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about first
person POV here. I know we've talked about it before, but it bears
repeating...
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mary rosenblum
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because a lot of aspiring
writers tend to use First Person as their main POV.
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mary rosenblum
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And this is problematic,
because very few novice writers do First Person well.
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mary rosenblum
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It tends to be more difficult
than Third, even if it seems easier.
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mary rosenblum
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And the reason is
characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're not aware of
characterization in FIrst Person, it simply doesn't happen and YOU are the
main character.
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mary rosenblum
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Which is fine if you could be
the main character, but if your MC is supposedly a tough, street-wise
skateboarder about 20 years old...
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mary rosenblum
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and the character speaks and
thinks like a 40 year old college professor...uh oh.
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jackie7777
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So novice writers should use
third person POV?
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mary rosenblum
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You don't have to. But you do
need to pay attention to how to do First Person well. If you just do it
without thinking...
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mary rosenblum
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you will simply use yourself
as your POV character and that may not work.
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mary rosenblum
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Everyone has a favorite voice.
Mine is third, but I do First intentionally when the story benefits from
First.
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tally
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ask> can you switch back and
forth effectively?
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mary rosenblum
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You meen between stories,
tally, or within a story?
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mary rosenblum
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Ideally, you should be fluent
in both First and Third person as a writer.
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tally
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Within.
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mary rosenblum
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You CAN switch back and forth
within a story, but it is difficult.
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mary rosenblum
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Your breaks need to be very
clear so that you do not confuse the reader. And it rarely works to switch
from third to first using the same character.
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mary rosenblum
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You can have a character
telling the story, and then switch to say, a cinematic third person scene
where we see things going on without our First person POV character's
presence...on
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mary rosenblum
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but you really really need to
make that transition very very strong and clear.
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tally
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If you are setting the story
up/third person, then the mc is pov?
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mary rosenblum
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Nearly always, tally.
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mary rosenblum
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POV means Point of View and
that means we are experiencing the story through that character's
perspective.
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mary rosenblum
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In First, our MC is narrating
the story...either 'directly' as he/she lives the events, or 'indirectly'
as he/she tells us about an event from the past.
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mary rosenblum
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In third person, the scene is
simply described in terms of what the MC sees, hears. smells, tastes,
thinks, feels, says.
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rock
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Can you exlain what you mean by
beneficial in the story?
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bravo6
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Other than seeing the MC's
thoughts, what other advantages are there to FP-POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes and yes. Actually, Bravo,
we know the MC's thoughts even more precisely in Third, since the MC in
First will only tell us what he is thinking if he chooses to...
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mary rosenblum
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and the Third MC has no
choice. We just look into her head and know her thoughts. So THird tends to
be the more transparent POV>
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mary rosenblum
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But there ARE reasons to use
First.
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mary rosenblum
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If your story is very
internal, so that the MC will do a lot of thinking or internal
monologue...why not simply use first?
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mary rosenblum
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If there is limited or no
action, an interesting and engaging voice can help hold reader interest
even if not much is going on 'on stage'.
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mary rosenblum
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Both are good reasons to use
FIrsts.
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mary rosenblum
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AND...the First MC can lie to
the reader. You can't do that well in Third...not without ticking off most
of your readers.
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bravo6
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I've seen Mystery that is almost
ONLY the MC's POV in 3rd person. But most fiction I read has mutliple POV's
in 3rd...
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mary rosenblum
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Most novels use multiple Third
POVs...which is why a FIrst person novel tends to be MUCH more difficult to
pull off...although you see it in the Mystery PI novels a lot...
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mary rosenblum
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think Raymond Chandler.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you do it, your
character's voice needs to be interesting enough to keep readers from
getting bored before the end of your 350 pages!
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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t green
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I very rarely see a novel
written in present tense first person. is there a reason for this? what
genres would use this type of tense/pov?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, the First person
question I just answered...it's hard not to bore the reader. But present
tense makes most editors outside the literary/mainstream genre nervous.
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mary rosenblum
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Past tense is invisible to
readers. We're used to it and we just don't notice it at all. First person
is far less common in fiction and we notice it.
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mary rosenblum
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So you tend to see it in books
where style is a large part of the book.
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curseofthe44
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I'm glad that you have selected
this topic, as I have two stories that I am writing in first person. One is
based in part on a true occurance, the other is not. I try to image or use
my own life experiences to bring my character to life. Is this an okay way
to go about it?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. That's how
characterization is done. Write what you know. You find similar
experiences, feelings, actions and then you exaggerate them and expand them
to create what you need for your character.
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mary rosenblum
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You may never have stabbed
anyone, but you've probably really lost your temper at some point in your
life...so you extrapolate on that moment of ...
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mary rosenblum
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rage when you said something
you shouldn't have so that you can imagine the rage that resulted in the
stabbing.
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jackie7777
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How can I keep my personal views
separate from the MC
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mary rosenblum
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That's part of what you learn
as a writer, jackie.
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mary rosenblum
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You have to separate yourself
from your characters or your characters will all be you, and some won't
seem real at all.
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mary rosenblum
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They won't fit the external
persona you have created...like our street wise skateboarder who sounds and
thinks like a 40 year old professor.
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mary rosenblum
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Not gonna seem very real....
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mary rosenblum
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A great exercise is to create
a POSITIVE character who embodies traits you do not personally like.
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mary rosenblum
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Being able to like a character
for who he or she is, but not like some of the things they do or think
personally, is a real challenge.
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mary rosenblum
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GOOD writing exercise.
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mary rosenblum
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Start with something simple...you
don't like smoking, so have your very positive MC be a smoker.
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deb1234
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When it is your personal story,
and you only have 1,000 words, how can you get characterization?
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mary rosenblum
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Aha...here we get to the meat
of the issue. How DO you convey characterization in First person.
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mary rosenblum
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You have a lot of options in
Third: we can see the character blanch, shiver, glare, tense up when
someone starts to get angry...
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mary rosenblum
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slam on the brakes to miss a
dog crossing the street...we learn a lot by seeing that person in action.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...when was the last time
you said aloud or even thought coherently about yourself as a person?
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mary rosenblum
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When was the last time you
thought, 'I'm a well adjusted man in early middle age, happy with my
family, who finds real satisfaction in volunteer work with kids.
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, REAL realistic thought,
that! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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But somehow we have to get
that to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, your main tool in FIrst
person is...the MC's voice.
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mary rosenblum
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When you meet a stranger for
the first time, you assess that person's dress and body language and you
learn a lot, but then what?
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly we listen. We notice
that person's word choices, and we learn how they feel about politics,
kids, dogs, other races by the adjectives and adverbs they use.
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curseofthe44
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Can you give an example of how
to weave first person POV thoughts into surrounding narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, curse, there is no
surrounding narrative in First person. It is entirely that MC's thoughts,
spoken to us/herself. And out-loud dialoge.
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mary rosenblum
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So if the MC is not speaking
out loud to another person, it IS his/her thoughts...
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mary rosenblum
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Unless you have your MC
telling a story out loud to an audience and then that MC tells us his/her
thoughts:
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mary rosenblum
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Here's an example..
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mary rosenblum
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I look up and Cary's walking
into the room. I haven't seen her since she was ..oh, maybe ten. Wow, what
a looker? How did that skinny kid turn into this bombshell anyhow? My
tongue wants to hang out and hey, I could be her grandfather. I might BE
her grandfather for that matter.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our first person
narrator talking to us and to himself. He's not saying any of this out
loud. But as he talks to himself/us, we see Cary walking into the room. We
don't...
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mary rosenblum
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know exactly what she looks
like yet, just that she's gorgeous and used to be a skinny kid, and our POV
is clearly quite a bit older and she is probably late teens/early twenties.
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tally
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ask>don't you have to have
some narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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You do, Tally. First person is
all narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you who are
confused...narrative means 'told words'.
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mary rosenblum
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In first person, your MC tells
the story...it is all FIRST PERSON NARRATIVE.
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mary rosenblum
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In third, you have narrative
told by the author. We can make it SEEM as if the readers are seeing the
scene for themselves...
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mary rosenblum
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by using a 'show, don't tell'
technique, but it is still narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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We can also let the author
tell the story in his/her own voice. That is narrative. We use the term
narrative in confusing ways.
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mary rosenblum
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The only thing that is really
not narrative is dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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But, for example, 'Narrative
Third Person' means that the author is telling the story, rather than using
'show, don't tell' and a Limited Third person POV to let the reader 'see'
the action.
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you that find
this third person/narrative stuff confusing, there is an article on Third
Person in all its forms in Writing Craft: The Plot Thickens.
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mary rosenblum
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Third
Person POVs
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tally
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ask>what i mean is,
description/action/not FP thoughts
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mary rosenblum
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Never in first person, tally.
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mary rosenblum
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It is always the MC's version
of action and description. That is why First Person is so limited as a
form.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to describe the
lovely English Cottage garden in detail...
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mary rosenblum
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and your First Person MC could
care less about flowers, he will just call it a garden and nothing more.
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mary rosenblum
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No description can work
because HE won't describe it for us. He doesn't know a rose from a tulip so
he CAN'T describe it in detail for us. It is merely a garden to him.
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ducky
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I'm writing a first person short
story right now. I'm bringing out the MC in what she says about the
situation.
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mary rosenblum
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That's exactly how to do it
ducky! And hey, long time no see! Nice to see you here!
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mary rosenblum
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If, for example, we have an
old man walking through a park and he notices the 'snottly little brats'
littering the ground.
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mary rosenblum
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We know how HE feels about
little kids, right?
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mary rosenblum
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But if he stops and thinks
with a sigh about how much that little boy standing on the sidelines with
the curley hair reminds him of his grandson...
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mary rosenblum
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and how much he misses having
the grandkids underfoot...well we know how HE thinks about kids.
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tally
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ask>...Ricky jumps out of bed
when he hears door slam...
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tally
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says..."what the hell is
going on?"
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mary rosenblum
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That's good showoing, tally.
It IS third person, you realize, yes? You might try leaving out the 'says'.
Believe me, we know he said it!
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curseofthe44
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How do I keep the reader from
being confused between the spoken words and the "thought" words?
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mary rosenblum
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In First Person, curse, just
as in Third, you use "" marks to set off spoken words. Then you
simply make it clear to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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"I guess I should show
up, Jimmy." Like heck I will, I'm not stupid, but hey, Jimmy is.
"Save me a seat, okay?"
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mary rosenblum
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The reader shouldn't have any
trouble figuring out what our POV says out loud to Jimmy and what he is
thinking.
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roe
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5.8 earhquake in CA
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mary rosenblum
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Yikes! I hope we didn't lose
anybody! That's a bit of a jolt!
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mary rosenblum
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And St Helens is rumbling
again....Hmmm. Hope the west coast is still here tomorrow!
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tally
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How do make time passing
effective/10 years later?
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mary rosenblum
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The simplest way is to simply
let the MC tell us: Sam and I had a happy ten years together. Then a stroke
took him one night and all of a sudden I was alone again.
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tally
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MC commits murder/ continue
story 10 years later?
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mary rosenblum
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Do the same sort of
transition, tally. When nothing showed up in the paper, I knew I got away
with it. So I moved to Florida and spent the next ten years fishing.
Boring, but who'd ever look for me there?
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mary rosenblum
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You simply let the MC tell us
briefly what has gone on during the elapsed time. It can be more than a
sentence, but I wouldn't do more than a paragraph or maybe two at the most.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers want to get on with
the story.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Tally, I gather that your MC
was a child when your story begins and is an adult for the latter part of
the story.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are going to do this,
you're probably going to want your First person voice to be that of an
adult...
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mary rosenblum
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and you will be using that
indirect first for part of the story at least, since our MC is telling us
about events that happened long ago.
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mary rosenblum
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Although you can switch over
to direct first person...the MC thinking to himself as events happen...once
we catch up to the present.
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mary rosenblum
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It will be very hard to do a
child's voice for the first part and an adult voice for the second part
without jolting the reader out of your POV.
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mary rosenblum
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One benefit to an adult POV
telling us about a childhood event is that we get that MC's perspective on
the event...one that the child would not have had...AND that MC can tell us
any facts that will increase our understanding of that earlier event.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, Tally, think of a friend
asking you, 'What is your book about?" Your answer is the summary.
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mary rosenblum
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Sorry, your question...what is
a summary...didn't come through here.
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tally
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Sometimes childs pov evokes more
emotion/don't you think?
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mary rosenblum
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A child's POV can be very
powerful, but it is the First Person POV that I probably see done poorly
the most often.
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mary rosenblum
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The hard part for many adult
writers is not just to acquire a child's voice, but to see the world the
way a child sees it.
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mary rosenblum
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You do not see the same world
now that you saw as a five year old.
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mary rosenblum
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You had your own reasons for
the way things worked...and now you know differently.
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mary rosenblum
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The boogy man under the bed is
no longer real to you, you know what Daddy does at the office all day, you
know what divorce means in the long term.
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mary rosenblum
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So most adult novice writers
load their five year old with all that mature world knowlege and the kid
sounds like an adult.
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mary rosenblum
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If you can truely capture the
way a child looks at the world, it is a VERY powerful voice.
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mary rosenblum
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I think Scout in To Kill a
Mockingbird, although she is a very mature kid, still works very well as a
child narrator.
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mary rosenblum
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Which is one reason the book
has lasted as long as it has, I suspect. Her naivete allows readers to form
their own conclusions.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that our character's
every sentence will reveal his/her character to us.
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mary rosenblum
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But one very important
exercise to do, before you begin that First Person story...
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mary rosenblum
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is to clarify for yourselves
just how your MC thinks, feels, sees the world, and what he/she does NOT
know.
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mary rosenblum
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If you just start writing,
focusing on the plot, on what happens next, your first person MC WILL be
you.
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mary rosenblum
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That' s not a big deal in your
first draft. You're busy nailing the two by fours together to build a house
here...
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mary rosenblum
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don't worry about the
wallpaper yet!
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mary rosenblum
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But later on, you DO need to
choose that wallpaper.
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mary rosenblum
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On your second draft, say, start
thinking about every paragraph.
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mary rosenblum
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Is this really how THIS
character would think? Would say this?
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mary rosenblum
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Our old man walking through
the park...kids pick his flowers and spray paint his house with graffiti.
Would he really notice that 'cute kid with freckles'? Do you really think
he'd see a 'cute kid' when a kid just trampled his favorite rose bush?
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tally
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I want the reader to think..aww
poor kid early,but later..hmmm...the reader will have mixed feelings.
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mary rosenblum
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This is one of the reasons to
use First Person, tally.
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mary rosenblum
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As I said earlier, Third
Person is a transparent POV. We see into the character's head so he/she
can't lie to us.
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mary rosenblum
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But since the First Person MC
is telling us the story, he/she can lie like a rug! So in your case...
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mary rosenblum
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the MC can tell us about his
childhood, how abused and miserable he was, and how he is only doing what
God asks him to do...
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mary rosenblum
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and we can slowly begin to
realize that this man is a serial killer who has convinced himself that
what he does is right.
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jr souza jr
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This may be too much to ask but
can you give examples of direct vs indirect 1st POV and are they different
than limited, omnipotent 1st POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Limited and omnipotent first
person may mean something similar, souza. Direct and indirect are my own
lables...
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mary rosenblum
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they simply mean that we
either share the action directly with the MC or we learn about it
later...indirectly...as the MC tells us about past events.
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mary rosenblum
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Okay. Here's the indirect
version: I was ten and I remember it like yesterday. Here I was up on the
barn loft, getting ready to swing down on the rope into the hay -- that was
our favorite game, even though Mama promised to tan our hides if she caught
us at it -- and all of a sudden there's this noise like thunder and maybe a
steam engine right over my head on the roof. I sure jumped, let me tell
you..
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mary rosenblum
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Darn near fell of the beam and
of course, let go of the rope. So now I was stuck. And then this big, shiny
blue claw pokes through the old shingles and they start falling off the
roof like leaves.
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mary rosenblum
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That's our MC telling us about
this event in the past. Okay..one thing right here... We know he survived
right? He's here to tell us about it!
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, now we'll plop ourselves
up on the beam with the kid as it all happens. I tend to use present tense
for direct first since it makes the immediacy of the events more clear.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm up on the beam, getting
ready to swing, just waiting for Carly to get out of the hay pile. She's so
slow...but she's a girl. And she finally gets out of the way and I grab the
rope and then...there's this crashing over my head and I think of the steam
engine roaring up from the mine and I think for a second it's falling on me
and I nearly wet myself and I let go of the rope.
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mary rosenblum
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Everything shakes and I just
flop down on the beam and maybe I'm screaming and then this...this big blue
claw just sort of pokes through the roof...
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mary rosenblum
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and wood and stuff is falling
all around and Cary's screaming or maybe it's me and this...eye...looks in
at me.
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mary rosenblum
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As you can see, these are VERY
different narratives, and very different characters telling us the story.
We have a kid and the adult who, for example, knew that the wood and stuff
were shingles...
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mary rosenblum
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and had the leisure to compare
them to shedding autumn leaves.
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tally
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Which is more effective/present
or past tense ?
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mary rosenblum
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In your case, Tally, since
your POV is probably telling about childhood events after the fact, you're
most likely going to find that past tense is less confusing to the reader.
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tally
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Can't you mix it up and make it
work?
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mary rosenblum
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If you can make it work. If
your reader is confused or thinks that you have two different characters
here, or if they are not engaged by one of your 'voices' your story may not
work.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember there is only one
rule for fiction: The story must work.
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mary rosenblum
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If it works, then what you did
is the correct thing to do.
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mary rosenblum
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If it does not work, then what
you did is not the correct thing to do.
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mary rosenblum
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Those are THE rules.
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speckledorf
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So what was it? Angy crab?
Alien? Run away steam shovel?
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know! LOL Personally,
I think it's a dragon in Appalachia.
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mary rosenblum
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But take a look at the two
examples. There are a couple of illustrations of that 'adult' versus 'kid'
POV here.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that this is the same
person speaking. But when he was ten, he knew that roofs were shingled but
the ability to instantly identify the debris raining down around him wasn't
there. It was just stuff. And he doesn't think of the barn area as a loft.
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mary rosenblum
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He's just up on a beam.
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mary rosenblum
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Labels are not a big deal to
him.
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mary rosenblum
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But our adult puts the right
labels on things.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to write strong
child POV, listen to kids that age.
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mary rosenblum
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Notice how many specific
labels they use as opposed to 'that green stuff' or 'things' or 'school
stuff'.
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mary rosenblum
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To that six year old, Daddy's
office is just a universe where he goes when he's not home, unless that kid
helps out on the job.
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mary rosenblum
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An older kid might know that
Daddy's a lawyer and goes to court.
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mary rosenblum
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World view is a powerful
window onto character.
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mary rosenblum
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A rural woman who has lived
all her life on the farm and never reads the news or watches TV will see a
different world than you do, and her words should reflect that.
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mary rosenblum
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So should her vocabulary! If
she glibly talks about computers, and hard drives as she plants turnips I
sure want to know how she became so knowlegible!
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mary rosenblum
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If you love to do First
Person, then do it. But DO think hard and long about your MC.
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mary rosenblum
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What is his/her education? WHat
is her world view? How does he feel about people?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, by the way...
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mary rosenblum
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on Friday, we're going to do
one of our 'hands on workshops'...
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mary rosenblum
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this one on 'openings'.
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mary rosenblum
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I invite you to bring your
opening paragraph...short ones, please, a few sentences only....
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mary rosenblum
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and I'll do a critique of them
in terms of a strong or weak start and why.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have no problem sending
me long questions, you can cut and paste your opening into the question bar
here...
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mary rosenblum
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but if you have to use /ask or
send me short bits, then email me your paragraph (SHORT remember)
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mary rosenblum
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and I'll put them up here for
you. You can email them to me at maryrsn@comcast.net and DO put PARAGRAPH
in the subject line so I don't delete it with the spam avalanch I get every
day !
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good week, all! And do
join me on Thursday for my interview with Steve Hamilton.
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mary rosenblum
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He is a mystery writer who is
selling very well, and will have a lot to say about mystery today.
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roe
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Is there a limit we should send
like one per person?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, I think one per person is
all. I may get too many to do as is! If so, I'll do a second sesson later
on.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good week, all!
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mary rosenblum
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See you tomorrow for our
casual chat, same time same station! LOL
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janp
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Thank you for another great
Tidbits on Tuesdays. This one sure fits a story under construction!!!
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mary rosenblum
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Hey, I like that title, Janp.
:-) I may just start calling this Tidbits on Tuesday! Glad it helps.
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curseofthe44
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Is this during the day or in the
evening?
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mary rosenblum
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The casual chats are the same
time as this forum, curse. The interviews are in the evenings.
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mary rosenblum
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See you all on the website.
I'll post the transcript of the session in Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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curseofthe44
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Thanks, Mary. If I can't attend,
can I email my opening beforehand?
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely, curse.
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mary rosenblum
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bye all! have a good week!
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