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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours forum.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to do another Forum
on plotting, since this is such a central issue for writers in general...
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mary rosenblum
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and LR students in particular,
who are faced with strict word limits.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about
plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you
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mary rosenblum
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Plot is the backbone of your
story.
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mary rosenblum
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It is the line from start to
finish that supports the rest of your story...
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mary rosenblum
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and like a backbone,
determines the size of your story.
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mary rosenblum
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Think of a whale's backbone
compared to the backbone of a rabbit!
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mary rosenblum
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So if you want to plot a short
story, starting with the backbone of a whale is going to be problematic!
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mary rosenblum
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And likewise, a rabbit-sized
backbone may not be big enough for your novel.
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lore alley
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I just signed up for National
Novel Writing Month, Mary, and my "word limit" is 50K! I have
trouble stretching my stories out anywhere near that long. How do I make
sure my plot will fill that *before* I start writing? How many subplots do
you think I would need? (I'm really new at this novel thing, prefer short
stories).
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mary rosenblum
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Well, 50,000 words is rather
short, actually. :-) Most novels are 70,000 to 100,000 and my last, at it's
pared-down final stage, is 120,000
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mary rosenblum
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It's a matter of obstacles,
lore.
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mary rosenblum
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Start with a beginning and an
end...
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mary rosenblum
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and see how many entertaining
obstacles you can put in the path of your mc as that character makes
her/his way from start to finish.
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forest elf
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So we want a horse size
backbone?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you essentially want a
backbone that fits your intended story, elf.
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robastor
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I've always had a problem with
smaller word limits; like 1,000 for example. I find it very hard to tell a
story that short. How do you write something so small and not sacrifice the
plot or characters?
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mary rosenblum
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Short short fiction is a
lovely exercise and I highly recommend it to all novice writers.
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mary rosenblum
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Like poetry it requires you to
use 'empty space' positively.
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mary rosenblum
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By that, I mean you need to
imply a lot of stuff you simply cannot include in the short short.
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mary rosenblum
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It teaches you how to imply
effectively, which means that even when you write much longer work you can
pack even more richness into that longer piece...
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mary rosenblum
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without sacrificing pace and
reader engagement.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, effective short
shorts focus on the central climax and resolution and imply both the
beginning and the end.
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mary rosenblum
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You simply cannot introduce
the world, build to a climax, and resolve everything in 1000 words!
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writeaway
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Writers' Digest use to have 50
word assignments you sent in on a post card.
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mary rosenblum
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I think that's getting below
the level of effectiveness, write.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless you are simply creating
story treatments in 50 words.
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mary rosenblum
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I've done contests on
'shortest story' and they are fun...
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mary rosenblum
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but you don't create much
impact in 20 or 50 or 15 words.
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lore alley
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would one way of varying
"plot size" be to increase or decrease the number of main characters
you include? so if you need a bigger plot, create a couple more MCs?
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mary rosenblum
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That certainly increases the
size of your plot because each main character...
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mary rosenblum
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should bring in his/her own
character conflict to resolve during the novel.
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mary rosenblum
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So you will have an external
plot and an internal plot for each POV character.
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mary rosenblum
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That will increase the size of
your overall plot structure significantly.
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mary rosenblum
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And this is partly why writing
books warn new writers not to try multiple POV in short stories right off
the bat.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't have the space to do
twin character conflicts/resolutions effectively without a lot of skill and
it's hard to do...
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mary rosenblum
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Most new writers tend to end
up with something very superficial.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh you CAN do it, it's just a
lot harder than sticking to a single POV is all.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about
plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you
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mary rosenblum
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Issues tend to influence the
size of your plot.
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mary rosenblum
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If your external plot is the overthrow
of a government...this is probably going to require a novel's worth of
prose.
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mary rosenblum
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If your main plot is a son
confronting his overbearing father...you can pull that off in a short
story.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a small matter that can
imply a huge and long lasting change.
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mary rosenblum
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And can be illustrated by a
single scene.
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mary rosenblum
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It might be difficult to make
this particular plot work for a novel lenght work unless...
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mary rosenblum
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you braid some really powerful
subplots into it.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, if your MC moves
to Thailand
to teach English and gets involved with a couple of local residents...
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mary rosenblum
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and their lives, the ultimate
climax might be that MC confronting that overbearing dad, same as in the
short story...
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mary rosenblum
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but it has come about through
the unfolding of the strong subplots about the local residents and they
have helped effect that confrontation.
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mary rosenblum
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Any story IDEA can by expanded
or shrunk to the size you need...
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mary rosenblum
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but it will almost certainly
require some changes to how you use the idea.
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mary rosenblum
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As illustrated by my example
of the story idea: Son confronts overbearing father and grows up.
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mary rosenblum
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We have the short story
version and the novel version.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're writing short, say
for a LR assignment...
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mary rosenblum
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and you find yourself
including a lot of details about characters other than your POV
character...
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mary rosenblum
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and their conflicts and lives,
try focusing just on the POV character.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, it's hard to put
characters on the shelf, so to speak, make them back into 'spear carriers'
after...
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mary rosenblum
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you began to evolve them into
real characters...
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mary rosenblum
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but promise them their own
story and stick narrowly to your POV if you need to reduce the size of your
story.
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mary rosenblum
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Many of my secondary
characters show up in other stories or get their own stories. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you're thinking in terms of
a novel...that's the fun part!
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mary rosenblum
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What adventures would interest
YOU?
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mary rosenblum
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What would make your
character's journey from Start to The End entertaining for YOU?
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mary rosenblum
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Think up unexpected
events/occurances/encounters that will jog your MC off that straight route
to the end and make that character work in order to get back on track.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll discover some of the
most fun characters you create, I'll bet, as you complicate your
character's path.
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lore alley
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I think I figured out my problem
Mary! I usually have the opposite problem, with having too little plot to
work with. I just reallzed, I'm working with tiny little intimate plots and
one or two POVs and the rest of the characters are plot puppets! The
characters are already there in my story, I just need to develop them more.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's actually the magic
of writing the novel, lore.
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mary rosenblum
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It's okay for your original
plot to see 'thin'. AS your secondary characters begin to come to life...
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mary rosenblum
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they will suggest
complications, subplots, and new side-paths.
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mary rosenblum
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A novel is an organic entity. It
grows and evolves as you write it.
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mary rosenblum
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I love that sense of
exploration as I bring new characters to life.
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robastor
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I'm always a very visual writer.
I think now by shrinking a lot of that out, and centralizing on one person,
maybe I can do a short short. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I bet you can, Rob. And don't
cut out the visuals entirely, but rather distil them to their essence.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, look at a
forest...
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mary rosenblum
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Think of all the deails
there...leaves, twigs, tree trunks, a squirrel, rocks, leaf-flitter, salal,
a turtle...
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mary rosenblum
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and distil that landscape into
a brief description.
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mary rosenblum
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One or two details that give
the reader the sense of that clutter of images that your story needs.
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mary rosenblum
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In short stories, you have to
allow the reader to do more of the work.
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mary rosenblum
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You cannot control all the
details...
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mary rosenblum
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you can give the reader
'formal dining room', but you won't have enough words to describe each
piece of furniture...
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mary rosenblum
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so you'll have to settle for a
range of furniture styles, and each one suits that reader's sense of
'formal dining room'.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT..
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mary rosenblum
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in a cozy mystery, say, I
might give the reader a brief tour of gate-legged tables, chintz-upholstered
chairs, green velvet settee, and dusty brocade drapes.
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you who are going
to do the NANO thing...write a 50,000 word novel in a month...
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mary rosenblum
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rough out your plot ahead of
time... (Not a bad idea in any case!)
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mary rosenblum
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Think up obstacles and
complications that will make your MC's path less easy.
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archer
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what's "NANO"?
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mary rosenblum
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O
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mary rosenblum
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It's National Novel Writing
Month...a sort of challenge to write a 50,000 word novel in a month.
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mary rosenblum
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NANO website
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mary rosenblum
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You sign up and try to
complete the novel. I think there's a judge and award?
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mary rosenblum
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Not sure of all the details,
but take a look.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing else, applying butt
to chair and doing that 50,000 words for good or bad is going to help you.
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lore alley
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The stories aren't judged.
Anyone who completes 50K "wins".
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, that's even better!
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mary rosenblum
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And you are a winner for doing
it.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about
plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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mary rosenblum
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So what are some of the
problems you all have with plotting?
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mary rosenblum
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And by the way, there is no
'prize' for finishing the NANO challenge, but your name goes on the website
and you get a certificate. And a novel.
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robastor
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Keeping them short! LOL I've
always been into novel mode.
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mary rosenblum
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There it's often a matter of
'focusing down', Rob.
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mary rosenblum
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Instead of looking at the
story of how the evil dictator was overthrown by the rightful heir to the
murdered ruler...
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mary rosenblum
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focus on the moment when that
ruler, who used to be a worker, decided to pursue his destiny.
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mary rosenblum
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That's the short story
version...it is the small center of that larger picture.
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mary rosenblum
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Think of a bulleye...you have
rings...
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mary rosenblum
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from the dot at the center,
each ring is larger until you get to the outermost ring.
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mary rosenblum
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The short short story is the
dot at the center.
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mary rosenblum
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The novel is the outermost
ring.
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mary rosenblum
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Each step outward includes
more of that entire disk.
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beckylady
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What would that dot be in a
short story mystery? What moment in the story?
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mary rosenblum
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Short short mystery is
tough...like 1000 words...you'd really have to begin one step short of the
climax, becky...
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mary rosenblum
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and maybe let the sleuth give
some backstory after the fact.
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sweett
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My problem was getting out of
short mentality and letting the other characters develop into the plot.
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mary rosenblum
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That takes practice,
sweett...it's the same thing I faced as a short story writer moving into
novel length.
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mary rosenblum
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But remember, you can do
multiple POV very effectively in novel form and that helps your other
characters grow.
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mary rosenblum
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It just takes practice. :-) Be
sure you know your secondary characters well.
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ltsonya
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for me it's writing all the
stuff in between the end and the beginning
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, that's where you get to
play, ltsonya!
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mary rosenblum
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If your middle is boring, do
something exciting.
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mary rosenblum
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Throw in a car wreck, an
unexpected stranger, a lost dog...what have you.
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mary rosenblum
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Give your characters something
to struggle with.
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speckledorf
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How do we chart a plot as far as
dramatic arc and chapters?
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to do it on multiple
levesl, speck.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll start with a rough
dramatic arc...
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mary rosenblum
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I want to start HERE...I want
to end THERE...what are the main events that will happen between here and
there? (That's the stage I'm in right now)..
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mary rosenblum
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When I have those down, I'll
start thinking about characters and what they do and fiill in more peaks in
between those main events...
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mary rosenblum
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and finally, will take it down
to a chapter by chapter summary.
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robastor
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A college instructor once told
me I creat virtual realities on paper. It was just something that came
nautral for me. :-) I have written shorter stories. :-) Did you find it was
natural for you to write shorter things first? I thought I was odd always
doing the longer things first.
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mary rosenblum
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People do it both ways, rob.
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mary rosenblum
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I read more novels, actually,
when I started writing seriously, but found short stories a challenge and
fell in love with 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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The challenge is to create the
rich virtual reality without sacrificing the strength of your plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Too much detail smothers your
story.
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aulait
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How detailed do you get with a
plot outline?
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mary rosenblum
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For short work, I usually
write out a short summary, rather like a book jacket blurb.
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mary rosenblum
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For a novel, I may take it
down to a scene by scene summary of every chapter.
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mary rosenblum
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That's how I do it
now...didn't do it that way when I started.
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mary rosenblum
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Then it was start...know where
I was going and more or less how I planned to get there...and have at it.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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But I"m lazy and I HATE
first drafts...a detailed summary IS a first draft for me.
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mary rosenblum
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Takes just as much creative
energy, but saves me typing a lot of words I'm going to change anyway.
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mary rosenblum
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But again...that is just MY
way of doing it. What works for you is the best way for you to do it.
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wolf122
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My arrows (stories) are all
landing in the 22-26K range for fantasy--not too big of a market for
novellettes--should I wait for the right anthology, try working them into
novels, or. . .?
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mary rosenblum
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That's an awkward length, yes,
wolf, when you don' t have an established name.
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mary rosenblum
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Doesn't mean you won't sell,
but does mean it has to knock the editor's socks off.
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mary rosenblum
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Hard to say whether you should
expand 'em or reduce 'em into short stories.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're happy with 'em, hold
'em and wait for a market or revise 'em and sell 'em later when you have an
established name and focus on staying under...
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mary rosenblum
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10,000 words on the next few
you write. :-)
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paminnapa
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have you ever combined your
shorts into a novel?
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mary rosenblum
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I have used short stories in
novels, yes...haven't really combined 'em... My short stories are strongly
resolved and don't really combine well...
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mary rosenblum
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but a couple have served as
first chapters. (Stone Garden and The Tomorrow Horizon, the one to be
published next summer).
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about
plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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tellastory
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Does a story for a magazine
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tellastory
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have to be a totally new concept
to be accepted?
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mary rosenblum
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Goodness no!!!
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mary rosenblum
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How many versions of Romeo and
Juliet are there?
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mary rosenblum
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There is no 'new concept' so
don't sweat it.
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mary rosenblum
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You do it your way with your
characters and it's new.
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mary rosenblum
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One exercise I use in all-day
workshops is I give the group the SAME story idea...
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mary rosenblum
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and everybody writes a short
short. SAME idea. And you know what? The stories are all radically
different.
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aulait
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I often have scenes in my head
without knowing a conclusion. In developing and writing the scene only then
do I know where to go next. If you think this way how can you outline the
story?
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mary rosenblum
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If this is what works for you,
then don't try to outline, aulait.
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mary rosenblum
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If it ain't broke, don't fix
it. Good advice any day. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I know well published writers
who write that way to this day.
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mary rosenblum
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If they know the end, they're
bored...so they start with page one and go find out what happened.
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mary rosenblum
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Now this can also yield a
long, meandering ms, that will require a LOT of editing and revising, but
if that is not a problem, don't worry about it.
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ltsonya
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what about short fantasy or
science fiction? I tend to get caught up in creating the world while trying
to write the story. what's a good way to show that world and still tell a
story?
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mary rosenblum
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It's a real art, ltsonya, as I
know well! :-) (I do mostly SF)
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mary rosenblum
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The trick is to start with a
scene of action that illustrates the world for the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Think about that, don't just
dive into a cool scene and try to explain what is going on and where.
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mary rosenblum
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Instead, think of a strong scene
where the character's actions and/or dialogue will give the reader the key
points about this world...
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mary rosenblum
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that are sufficient so that
the reader can wait for more clues about this universe.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that the reader does
not have to know EVERYTHING on page one.
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mary rosenblum
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All we MUST know are the
details that give us a basic sense of 'where'.
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lorib
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These 1000 word limits make me
hold my breath and write faster...lol
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, they're short, but as I
said earlier, they are really an excellent exercise, even if you want to be
a novelist eventually.
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beckylady
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My problem is I tend to write a
beginning and don't know where the characters are going to end up. So maybe
I need a beginning and an end BEFORE I start writing the middle?
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a hard time making
an end work, becky, then it might be a good idea to at least know where you
want to end up and why.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's look at the difference
between a strong plot and a weak plot.
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mary rosenblum
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A strong plot can be complex
or simple, but it is always driving toward the final climax and resolution.
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mary rosenblum
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Every scene, no matter how
many there are, is pointing us in that directio.
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mary rosenblum
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A weak plot meanders. Scenes
don't really drive us toward the ultimate climax and resolution. Instead
they simply bring in interesting scenes that don't really push us any
closer to that climax.
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mary rosenblum
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The ending may seem to leap
out of nowhere.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, the reader thinks, I
didn't know that's where we were headed.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a strong plot, the
ending derives very naturally from everything that has gone on before. It
is the natural conclusion of all that has come before.
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mary rosenblum
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Your reader may not (should
not) guess it beforehand, but when they get there, you get a resounding 'of
course'.
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lore alley
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so these obstacles that we
should throw in to increase the size of our plot... they need to all point
toward the climax and resolution?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, they should be, lore.
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mary rosenblum
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Think of it this way...
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mary rosenblum
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you can have, say, a band of
people on a quest...
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mary rosenblum
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and they can simply encounter
a lot of physical obstacles...a flooded river, a snowy pass, a desert...
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mary rosenblum
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but if each of these obstacles
is more directly linked to the plot...
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mary rosenblum
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the flooded river is the
result of the evil wizard's weather manipulation and now they know he has
spotted them...
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mary rosenblum
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the snowy pass claims the life
of an important character (or the rest of the band thinks he's dead at
least),
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mary rosenblum
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if the desert is because of a
mutiny and bad choice made by a character...
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mary rosenblum
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these obstacles become much more
a part of the plot rather than mere barriers.
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tellastory
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I just read your story about the
boy given a new face, Mary
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mary rosenblum
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Skin Deep. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That's a very internal,
character driven story and one of my very rare first person POV stories.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, characters provide
a wealth of complications and obstacles!
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tellastory
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Do you dislike first person POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Not at all. I only use it when
I feel it benefits the story. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Most of my stories work as
well or better in third and I feel third is more flexible, all other things
being equal.
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mary rosenblum
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This story would not have
worked well in third person.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about
plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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mary rosenblum
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The thing to remember about
plot is that it is an infinitely elastic thing.
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mary rosenblum
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You can expand it, and you can
shrink it.
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mary rosenblum
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You can focus in on a very
small detail for a short short...
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mary rosenblum
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or give us the fall of an
empire for a fantasy series.
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mary rosenblum
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It's all about the string of
events you include in that plot...
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mary rosenblum
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you get the backbone of a
shrew...or the backbone of a blue whale...and everything in between.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to include the
adventures of four main characters, you are likely to have a HUGE book if
you give them adequate attention.
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tellastory
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My problem is not the beginning
or end but figuring out all the plot details in the middle, what happens to
the characters on the way.
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mary rosenblum
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That's where you have license
to have FUN tell!
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mary rosenblum
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When you suddenly realize
you've run out of fun stuff to do and you're only on page 100, stop and
take a look at your end.
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mary rosenblum
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Where do you need to end up?
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, now with that in
mind...what wacky, weird, exciting, and/or unexpected things can you do to
complicate life for your characters between here and there?
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mary rosenblum
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And how will it affect those
characters?
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mary rosenblum
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What happens if your strong
leader is incapacitated and the bumbler has to take over?
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mary rosenblum
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What if they are separated?
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mary rosenblum
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What if one is captured and
must either be rescued or left behind?
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mary rosenblum
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Can they encounter witchcraft?
Attack? Echoes from someone's past?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, a blank middle is such a
gift. You can add wonderful secondary characters, strange side trips, all
kinds of things.
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mary rosenblum
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The main thing to remember
is...your plot is not cast in stone.
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mary rosenblum
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If it is not working, try
something new and radical.
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mary rosenblum
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Change direction and see if
that works.
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mary rosenblum
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See if someone else will make
a better MC.
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speckledorf
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Hey...don't know if you know or
not..but TC got her mag online today sometime. Roe told me druing forum.
Thought you might want to know:--)
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mary rosenblum
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Oh cool!
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mary rosenblum
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This is TC McMullen, who did
Crimson Dagger, and has a new Ezine online: Silver Moon.
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mary rosenblum
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She has a story of mine in
it...a story I first published in Asimov's some years ago.
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lore alley
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Mary, I have a completely
unrelated question. When you run out of steam in a story, do you think it's
better to slog through and hope that jumpstarts your muse or do you take a
break and just let it simmer a while?
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mary rosenblum
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Lore I do tend to take a break
and then try to figure out why it's stuck.
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mary rosenblum
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Usually the muse kicks in
after a bit.
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mary rosenblum
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Ooh, Silver Moon looks nice
and she's taking submissions. Don't know if she pays or not.
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mary rosenblum
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Silver Moon Magazine
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mary rosenblum
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I interviewed her back when
she was doing Crimson Dagger.
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mary rosenblum
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It's in Surviving and
Thriving: Interview Transcripts.
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tellastory
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Do you do many stories for
online magazines Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on the magazine, tell.
I'll let people use reprints if they are willing to accept limited rights,
but I make my living on my fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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so I don't write for markets
that don't pay or don't pay well.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a story on SciFiction's
website. They are the top paying SF market.
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mary rosenblum
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I sell many of my stories
multiple times so I'm very proprietary about rights, believe me!
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robastor
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Are there any on-line publishing
sites you would recomend for submitting science fiction?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Like I said, SciFiction
is the top paying market.
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mary rosenblum
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There's another good one...I
need to send them something, the editor has been nagging me forever, sigh.
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mary rosenblum
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Strange Horizons Magazine
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mary rosenblum
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Strange Horizons is a well
respected pro market, Rob.
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tellastory
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Have you heard about Ralan? They
have great listings for magazines and markets.
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mary rosenblum
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I have. I haven't checked it
out.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll find quite a few market
lists online.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I've spent all day retyping
the 40 pages of on-deadline ms that I managed to erase from my harddrive
AND backup.
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mary rosenblum
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A little caution to not only
save and backup, but make sure you are saving and backing up the RIGHT MS!
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mary rosenblum
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Drop in here Sunday,
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mary rosenblum
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same time as the Forum, for
our casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
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we just hang out and talk
about writing.
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mary rosenblum
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Or whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a great weekend and I'll
see you then!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcripts in
the usual place:
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcript.
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