Forum Transcripts

Plotting Large and Small 10/7/05

Event start time:

Fri Oct 07 19:06:20 2005

Event end time:

Fri Oct 07 20:37:22 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours forum.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to do another Forum on plotting, since this is such a central issue for writers in general...

mary rosenblum

and LR students in particular, who are faced with strict word limits.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

Plot is the backbone of your story.

mary rosenblum

It is the line from start to finish that supports the rest of your story...

mary rosenblum

and like a backbone, determines the size of your story.

mary rosenblum

Think of a whale's backbone compared to the backbone of a rabbit!

mary rosenblum

So if you want to plot a short story, starting with the backbone of a whale is going to be problematic!

mary rosenblum

And likewise, a rabbit-sized backbone may not be big enough for your novel.

lore alley

I just signed up for National Novel Writing Month, Mary, and my "word limit" is 50K! I have trouble stretching my stories out anywhere near that long. How do I make sure my plot will fill that *before* I start writing? How many subplots do you think I would need? (I'm really new at this novel thing, prefer short stories).

mary rosenblum

Well, 50,000 words is rather short, actually. :-) Most novels are 70,000 to 100,000 and my last, at it's pared-down final stage, is 120,000

mary rosenblum

It's a matter of obstacles, lore.

mary rosenblum

Start with a beginning and an end...

mary rosenblum

and see how many entertaining obstacles you can put in the path of your mc as that character makes her/his way from start to finish.

forest elf

So we want a horse size backbone?

mary rosenblum

Well, you essentially want a backbone that fits your intended story, elf.

robastor

I've always had a problem with smaller word limits; like 1,000 for example. I find it very hard to tell a story that short. How do you write something so small and not sacrifice the plot or characters?

mary rosenblum

Short short fiction is a lovely exercise and I highly recommend it to all novice writers.

mary rosenblum

Like poetry it requires you to use 'empty space' positively.

mary rosenblum

By that, I mean you need to imply a lot of stuff you simply cannot include in the short short.

mary rosenblum

It teaches you how to imply effectively, which means that even when you write much longer work you can pack even more richness into that longer piece...

mary rosenblum

without sacrificing pace and reader engagement.

mary rosenblum

Generally, effective short shorts focus on the central climax and resolution and imply both the beginning and the end.

mary rosenblum

You simply cannot introduce the world, build to a climax, and resolve everything in 1000 words!

writeaway

Writers' Digest use to have 50 word assignments you sent in on a post card.

mary rosenblum

I think that's getting below the level of effectiveness, write.

mary rosenblum

Unless you are simply creating story treatments in 50 words.

mary rosenblum

I've done contests on 'shortest story' and they are fun...

mary rosenblum

but you don't create much impact in 20 or 50 or 15 words.

lore alley

would one way of varying "plot size" be to increase or decrease the number of main characters you include? so if you need a bigger plot, create a couple more MCs?

mary rosenblum

That certainly increases the size of your plot because each main character...

mary rosenblum

should bring in his/her own character conflict to resolve during the novel.

mary rosenblum

So you will have an external plot and an internal plot for each POV character.

mary rosenblum

That will increase the size of your overall plot structure significantly.

mary rosenblum

And this is partly why writing books warn new writers not to try multiple POV in short stories right off the bat.

mary rosenblum

You don't have the space to do twin character conflicts/resolutions effectively without a lot of skill and it's hard to do...

mary rosenblum

Most new writers tend to end up with something very superficial.

mary rosenblum

Oh you CAN do it, it's just a lot harder than sticking to a single POV is all.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

Issues tend to influence the size of your plot.

mary rosenblum

If your external plot is the overthrow of a government...this is probably going to require a novel's worth of prose.

mary rosenblum

If your main plot is a son confronting his overbearing father...you can pull that off in a short story.

mary rosenblum

It's a small matter that can imply a huge and long lasting change.

mary rosenblum

And can be illustrated by a single scene.

mary rosenblum

It might be difficult to make this particular plot work for a novel lenght work unless...

mary rosenblum

you braid some really powerful subplots into it.

mary rosenblum

For example, if your MC moves to Thailand to teach English and gets involved with a couple of local residents...

mary rosenblum

and their lives, the ultimate climax might be that MC confronting that overbearing dad, same as in the short story...

mary rosenblum

but it has come about through the unfolding of the strong subplots about the local residents and they have helped effect that confrontation.

mary rosenblum

Any story IDEA can by expanded or shrunk to the size you need...

mary rosenblum

but it will almost certainly require some changes to how you use the idea.

mary rosenblum

As illustrated by my example of the story idea: Son confronts overbearing father and grows up.

mary rosenblum

We have the short story version and the novel version.

mary rosenblum

If you're writing short, say for a LR assignment...

mary rosenblum

and you find yourself including a lot of details about characters other than your POV character...

mary rosenblum

and their conflicts and lives, try focusing just on the POV character.

mary rosenblum

Yes, it's hard to put characters on the shelf, so to speak, make them back into 'spear carriers' after...

mary rosenblum

you began to evolve them into real characters...

mary rosenblum

but promise them their own story and stick narrowly to your POV if you need to reduce the size of your story.

mary rosenblum

Many of my secondary characters show up in other stories or get their own stories. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you're thinking in terms of a novel...that's the fun part!

mary rosenblum

What adventures would interest YOU?

mary rosenblum

What would make your character's journey from Start to The End entertaining for YOU?

mary rosenblum

Think up unexpected events/occurances/encounters that will jog your MC off that straight route to the end and make that character work in order to get back on track.

mary rosenblum

You'll discover some of the most fun characters you create, I'll bet, as you complicate your character's path.

lore alley

I think I figured out my problem Mary! I usually have the opposite problem, with having too little plot to work with. I just reallzed, I'm working with tiny little intimate plots and one or two POVs and the rest of the characters are plot puppets! The characters are already there in my story, I just need to develop them more.

mary rosenblum

And that's actually the magic of writing the novel, lore.

mary rosenblum

It's okay for your original plot to see 'thin'. AS your secondary characters begin to come to life...

mary rosenblum

they will suggest complications, subplots, and new side-paths.

mary rosenblum

A novel is an organic entity. It grows and evolves as you write it.

mary rosenblum

I love that sense of exploration as I bring new characters to life.

robastor

I'm always a very visual writer. I think now by shrinking a lot of that out, and centralizing on one person, maybe I can do a short short. :-)

mary rosenblum

I bet you can, Rob. And don't cut out the visuals entirely, but rather distil them to their essence.

mary rosenblum

For example, look at a forest...

mary rosenblum

Think of all the deails there...leaves, twigs, tree trunks, a squirrel, rocks, leaf-flitter, salal, a turtle...

mary rosenblum

and distil that landscape into a brief description.

mary rosenblum

One or two details that give the reader the sense of that clutter of images that your story needs.

mary rosenblum

In short stories, you have to allow the reader to do more of the work.

mary rosenblum

You cannot control all the details...

mary rosenblum

you can give the reader 'formal dining room', but you won't have enough words to describe each piece of furniture...

mary rosenblum

so you'll have to settle for a range of furniture styles, and each one suits that reader's sense of 'formal dining room'.

mary rosenblum

BUT..

mary rosenblum

in a cozy mystery, say, I might give the reader a brief tour of gate-legged tables, chintz-upholstered chairs, green velvet settee, and dusty brocade drapes.

mary rosenblum

For those of you who are going to do the NANO thing...write a 50,000 word novel in a month...

mary rosenblum

rough out your plot ahead of time... (Not a bad idea in any case!)

mary rosenblum

Think up obstacles and complications that will make your MC's path less easy.

archer

what's "NANO"?

mary rosenblum

O

mary rosenblum

It's National Novel Writing Month...a sort of challenge to write a 50,000 word novel in a month.

mary rosenblum

NANO website

mary rosenblum

You sign up and try to complete the novel. I think there's a judge and award?

mary rosenblum

Not sure of all the details, but take a look.

mary rosenblum

If nothing else, applying butt to chair and doing that 50,000 words for good or bad is going to help you.

lore alley

The stories aren't judged. Anyone who completes 50K "wins".

mary rosenblum

Oh, that's even better!

mary rosenblum

And you are a winner for doing it.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

So what are some of the problems you all have with plotting?

mary rosenblum

And by the way, there is no 'prize' for finishing the NANO challenge, but your name goes on the website and you get a certificate. And a novel.

robastor

Keeping them short! LOL I've always been into novel mode.

mary rosenblum

There it's often a matter of 'focusing down', Rob.

mary rosenblum

Instead of looking at the story of how the evil dictator was overthrown by the rightful heir to the murdered ruler...

mary rosenblum

focus on the moment when that ruler, who used to be a worker, decided to pursue his destiny.

mary rosenblum

That's the short story version...it is the small center of that larger picture.

mary rosenblum

Think of a bulleye...you have rings...

mary rosenblum

from the dot at the center, each ring is larger until you get to the outermost ring.

mary rosenblum

The short short story is the dot at the center.

mary rosenblum

The novel is the outermost ring.

mary rosenblum

Each step outward includes more of that entire disk.

beckylady

What would that dot be in a short story mystery? What moment in the story?

mary rosenblum

Short short mystery is tough...like 1000 words...you'd really have to begin one step short of the climax, becky...

mary rosenblum

and maybe let the sleuth give some backstory after the fact.

sweett

My problem was getting out of short mentality and letting the other characters develop into the plot.

mary rosenblum

That takes practice, sweett...it's the same thing I faced as a short story writer moving into novel length.

mary rosenblum

But remember, you can do multiple POV very effectively in novel form and that helps your other characters grow.

mary rosenblum

It just takes practice. :-) Be sure you know your secondary characters well.

ltsonya

for me it's writing all the stuff in between the end and the beginning

mary rosenblum

Ah, that's where you get to play, ltsonya!

mary rosenblum

If your middle is boring, do something exciting.

mary rosenblum

Throw in a car wreck, an unexpected stranger, a lost dog...what have you.

mary rosenblum

Give your characters something to struggle with.

speckledorf

How do we chart a plot as far as dramatic arc and chapters?

mary rosenblum

I tend to do it on multiple levesl, speck.

mary rosenblum

I'll start with a rough dramatic arc...

mary rosenblum

I want to start HERE...I want to end THERE...what are the main events that will happen between here and there? (That's the stage I'm in right now)..

mary rosenblum

When I have those down, I'll start thinking about characters and what they do and fiill in more peaks in between those main events...

mary rosenblum

and finally, will take it down to a chapter by chapter summary.

robastor

A college instructor once told me I creat virtual realities on paper. It was just something that came nautral for me. :-) I have written shorter stories. :-) Did you find it was natural for you to write shorter things first? I thought I was odd always doing the longer things first.

mary rosenblum

People do it both ways, rob.

mary rosenblum

I read more novels, actually, when I started writing seriously, but found short stories a challenge and fell in love with 'em.

mary rosenblum

The challenge is to create the rich virtual reality without sacrificing the strength of your plot.

mary rosenblum

Too much detail smothers your story.

aulait

How detailed do you get with a plot outline?

mary rosenblum

For short work, I usually write out a short summary, rather like a book jacket blurb.

mary rosenblum

For a novel, I may take it down to a scene by scene summary of every chapter.

mary rosenblum

That's how I do it now...didn't do it that way when I started.

mary rosenblum

Then it was start...know where I was going and more or less how I planned to get there...and have at it. :-)

mary rosenblum

But I"m lazy and I HATE first drafts...a detailed summary IS a first draft for me.

mary rosenblum

Takes just as much creative energy, but saves me typing a lot of words I'm going to change anyway.

mary rosenblum

But again...that is just MY way of doing it. What works for you is the best way for you to do it.

wolf122

My arrows (stories) are all landing in the 22-26K range for fantasy--not too big of a market for novellettes--should I wait for the right anthology, try working them into novels, or. . .?

mary rosenblum

That's an awkward length, yes, wolf, when you don' t have an established name.

mary rosenblum

Doesn't mean you won't sell, but does mean it has to knock the editor's socks off.

mary rosenblum

Hard to say whether you should expand 'em or reduce 'em into short stories.

mary rosenblum

If you're happy with 'em, hold 'em and wait for a market or revise 'em and sell 'em later when you have an established name and focus on staying under...

mary rosenblum

10,000 words on the next few you write. :-)

paminnapa

have you ever combined your shorts into a novel?

mary rosenblum

I have used short stories in novels, yes...haven't really combined 'em... My short stories are strongly resolved and don't really combine well...

mary rosenblum

but a couple have served as first chapters. (Stone Garden and The Tomorrow Horizon, the one to be published next summer).

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

tellastory

Does a story for a magazine

tellastory

have to be a totally new concept to be accepted?

mary rosenblum

Goodness no!!!

mary rosenblum

How many versions of Romeo and Juliet are there?

mary rosenblum

There is no 'new concept' so don't sweat it.

mary rosenblum

You do it your way with your characters and it's new.

mary rosenblum

One exercise I use in all-day workshops is I give the group the SAME story idea...

mary rosenblum

and everybody writes a short short. SAME idea. And you know what? The stories are all radically different.

aulait

I often have scenes in my head without knowing a conclusion. In developing and writing the scene only then do I know where to go next. If you think this way how can you outline the story?

mary rosenblum

If this is what works for you, then don't try to outline, aulait.

mary rosenblum

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Good advice any day. :-)

mary rosenblum

I know well published writers who write that way to this day.

mary rosenblum

If they know the end, they're bored...so they start with page one and go find out what happened.

mary rosenblum

Now this can also yield a long, meandering ms, that will require a LOT of editing and revising, but if that is not a problem, don't worry about it.

ltsonya

what about short fantasy or science fiction? I tend to get caught up in creating the world while trying to write the story. what's a good way to show that world and still tell a story?

mary rosenblum

It's a real art, ltsonya, as I know well! :-) (I do mostly SF)

mary rosenblum

The trick is to start with a scene of action that illustrates the world for the reader.

mary rosenblum

Think about that, don't just dive into a cool scene and try to explain what is going on and where.

mary rosenblum

Instead, think of a strong scene where the character's actions and/or dialogue will give the reader the key points about this world...

mary rosenblum

that are sufficient so that the reader can wait for more clues about this universe.

mary rosenblum

Remember that the reader does not have to know EVERYTHING on page one.

mary rosenblum

All we MUST know are the details that give us a basic sense of 'where'.

lorib

These 1000 word limits make me hold my breath and write faster...lol

mary rosenblum

Yes, they're short, but as I said earlier, they are really an excellent exercise, even if you want to be a novelist eventually.

beckylady

My problem is I tend to write a beginning and don't know where the characters are going to end up. So maybe I need a beginning and an end BEFORE I start writing the middle?

mary rosenblum

If you have a hard time making an end work, becky, then it might be a good idea to at least know where you want to end up and why.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at the difference between a strong plot and a weak plot.

mary rosenblum

A strong plot can be complex or simple, but it is always driving toward the final climax and resolution.

mary rosenblum

Every scene, no matter how many there are, is pointing us in that directio.

mary rosenblum

A weak plot meanders. Scenes don't really drive us toward the ultimate climax and resolution. Instead they simply bring in interesting scenes that don't really push us any closer to that climax.

mary rosenblum

The ending may seem to leap out of nowhere.

mary rosenblum

Oh, the reader thinks, I didn't know that's where we were headed.

mary rosenblum

If you have a strong plot, the ending derives very naturally from everything that has gone on before. It is the natural conclusion of all that has come before.

mary rosenblum

Your reader may not (should not) guess it beforehand, but when they get there, you get a resounding 'of course'.

lore alley

so these obstacles that we should throw in to increase the size of our plot... they need to all point toward the climax and resolution?

mary rosenblum

Yes, they should be, lore.

mary rosenblum

Think of it this way...

mary rosenblum

you can have, say, a band of people on a quest...

mary rosenblum

and they can simply encounter a lot of physical obstacles...a flooded river, a snowy pass, a desert...

mary rosenblum

but if each of these obstacles is more directly linked to the plot...

mary rosenblum

the flooded river is the result of the evil wizard's weather manipulation and now they know he has spotted them...

mary rosenblum

the snowy pass claims the life of an important character (or the rest of the band thinks he's dead at least),

mary rosenblum

if the desert is because of a mutiny and bad choice made by a character...

mary rosenblum

these obstacles become much more a part of the plot rather than mere barriers.

tellastory

I just read your story about the boy given a new face, Mary

mary rosenblum

Skin Deep. :-)

mary rosenblum

That's a very internal, character driven story and one of my very rare first person POV stories.

mary rosenblum

Believe me, characters provide a wealth of complications and obstacles!

tellastory

Do you dislike first person POV?

mary rosenblum

Not at all. I only use it when I feel it benefits the story. :-)

mary rosenblum

Most of my stories work as well or better in third and I feel third is more flexible, all other things being equal.

mary rosenblum

This story would not have worked well in third person.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're talking about plotting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

The thing to remember about plot is that it is an infinitely elastic thing.

mary rosenblum

You can expand it, and you can shrink it.

mary rosenblum

You can focus in on a very small detail for a short short...

mary rosenblum

or give us the fall of an empire for a fantasy series.

mary rosenblum

It's all about the string of events you include in that plot...

mary rosenblum

you get the backbone of a shrew...or the backbone of a blue whale...and everything in between.

mary rosenblum

If you want to include the adventures of four main characters, you are likely to have a HUGE book if you give them adequate attention.

tellastory

My problem is not the beginning or end but figuring out all the plot details in the middle, what happens to the characters on the way.

mary rosenblum

That's where you have license to have FUN tell!

mary rosenblum

When you suddenly realize you've run out of fun stuff to do and you're only on page 100, stop and take a look at your end.

mary rosenblum

Where do you need to end up?

mary rosenblum

Okay, now with that in mind...what wacky, weird, exciting, and/or unexpected things can you do to complicate life for your characters between here and there?

mary rosenblum

And how will it affect those characters?

mary rosenblum

What happens if your strong leader is incapacitated and the bumbler has to take over?

mary rosenblum

What if they are separated?

mary rosenblum

What if one is captured and must either be rescued or left behind?

mary rosenblum

Can they encounter witchcraft? Attack? Echoes from someone's past?

mary rosenblum

Oh, a blank middle is such a gift. You can add wonderful secondary characters, strange side trips, all kinds of things.

mary rosenblum

The main thing to remember is...your plot is not cast in stone.

mary rosenblum

If it is not working, try something new and radical.

mary rosenblum

Change direction and see if that works.

mary rosenblum

See if someone else will make a better MC.

speckledorf

Hey...don't know if you know or not..but TC got her mag online today sometime. Roe told me druing forum. Thought you might want to know:--)

mary rosenblum

Oh cool!

mary rosenblum

This is TC McMullen, who did Crimson Dagger, and has a new Ezine online: Silver Moon.

mary rosenblum

She has a story of mine in it...a story I first published in Asimov's some years ago.

lore alley

Mary, I have a completely unrelated question. When you run out of steam in a story, do you think it's better to slog through and hope that jumpstarts your muse or do you take a break and just let it simmer a while?

mary rosenblum

Lore I do tend to take a break and then try to figure out why it's stuck.

mary rosenblum

Usually the muse kicks in after a bit.

mary rosenblum

Ooh, Silver Moon looks nice and she's taking submissions. Don't know if she pays or not.

mary rosenblum

Silver Moon Magazine

mary rosenblum

I interviewed her back when she was doing Crimson Dagger.

mary rosenblum

It's in Surviving and Thriving: Interview Transcripts.

tellastory

Do you do many stories for online magazines Mary?

mary rosenblum

Depends on the magazine, tell. I'll let people use reprints if they are willing to accept limited rights, but I make my living on my fiction...

mary rosenblum

so I don't write for markets that don't pay or don't pay well.

mary rosenblum

I have a story on SciFiction's website. They are the top paying SF market.

mary rosenblum

I sell many of my stories multiple times so I'm very proprietary about rights, believe me!

robastor

Are there any on-line publishing sites you would recomend for submitting science fiction?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Like I said, SciFiction is the top paying market.

mary rosenblum

There's another good one...I need to send them something, the editor has been nagging me forever, sigh.

mary rosenblum

Strange Horizons Magazine

mary rosenblum

Strange Horizons is a well respected pro market, Rob.

tellastory

Have you heard about Ralan? They have great listings for magazines and markets.

mary rosenblum

I have. I haven't checked it out.

mary rosenblum

You'll find quite a few market lists online.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

I've spent all day retyping the 40 pages of on-deadline ms that I managed to erase from my harddrive AND backup.

mary rosenblum

A little caution to not only save and backup, but make sure you are saving and backing up the RIGHT MS!

mary rosenblum

Drop in here Sunday,

mary rosenblum

same time as the Forum, for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

we just hang out and talk about writing.

mary rosenblum

Or whatever.

mary rosenblum

Have a great weekend and I'll see you then!

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcript.

 

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