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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you had a great Fourth,
those of you below the US/Canada border. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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(Okay, and any of you in AK,
too.)
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mary rosenblum
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Now,while the fireworks and
family barbecues are fresh in your minds...
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mary rosenblum
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see if you can't come up with
a nice Fourth of July story that you can have ready...
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mary rosenblum
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to sell to editors next
winter.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I had a request for this
topic, and it's a good one to bring up.
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mary rosenblum
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Most people start out writing
with page one...
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mary rosenblum
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and write the story all the
way through, figuring it out as they go...
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mary rosenblum
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whether they're writing a
novel or a short story.
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mary rosenblum
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You can spend a lot of
rewriting time fixing structural problems that way...
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mary rosenblum
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or failing to fix structural
problems.
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mary rosenblum
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Which will cost you a sale for
sure.
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mary rosenblum
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Learning how to outline or
summarize your plot, large or small, is a great way to improve your grasp
of structure and plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Alas, most new writers have
sour memories from highschool English class...
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mary rosenblum
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of having to construct
outlines with all those capital and small letters, Roman numerals, et al...
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mary rosenblum
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and experience an attack of
nausea when the word 'ouline' crops up. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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They're not the same thing.
Don't worry.
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writerisme
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What's the process of outlining
a novel?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it can take several
forms, writer, and it's the same process for any length of work.
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mary rosenblum
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A story outline can be nothing
more than a one page summary that describes your dramatic arc...
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mary rosenblum
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we start here, this happens,
that happens, this happens, then we reaach the climax, then everything gets
wrapped up.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a working outline at
its most basic, and to be honest...
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mary rosenblum
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it's worth doing, no matter
how you fell about outlining.
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mary rosenblum
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The other end of this spectrum
is the very detailed, chapter by chapter outline.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, the author simply
summarizes each chapter, scene by scene.
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mary rosenblum
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That working outline may be
twenty five pages long and may actually function as a first draft.
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acook
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How does clustering fit into
outlining?
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mary rosenblum
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What do you mean by
clustering, acook? That's one of those 'fuzzy terms' that means what the
person using it wants it to mean. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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christopher dale
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Blatant self-promotion - As many
know I have written a Sotryboard article, published on this site. I use
this for a detailed outline for novel writing. I may or may not use a brief
outline for short stories. Just depending on how the "flow" feels
that
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, it's a good template for
that sort of chapter by chapter and scene by scene summary...
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mary rosenblum
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I recommend it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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One of the most common
arguments against outlining I've heard is that the writer...'has to be
surprised by the story'...
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mary rosenblum
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in other words, is going to
lose interest in the novel once that outline is completed.
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acook
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I learned from text books to
cluster - idea on paper.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, okay, that's what I
thought you meant, acook. Thanks.
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ling630
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If you let your intuition take
you is that not good writing?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure it's good writing. But I
hate to tell you...you are going to work wiht that draft over and over
again...
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mary rosenblum
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you are NOT going to write it
once, sell, it and see it in print.
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mary rosenblum
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So if it kills the 'fun' once
it is down on paper..brace yourself. :-) Because you're going to spend a
LOT more time with it.
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mary rosenblum
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So....let why not let your
intuition take you where it will...let the story unfold as it will...
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mary rosenblum
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by try doing it in shorthand.
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mary rosenblum
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Make notes, rough out the
story, where the characters go, what they do, how they behave...
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mary rosenblum
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and when you're done, however
many pages it takes you...
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mary rosenblum
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what you have is a working
outline or a shortand first draft...whichever you prefer.
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mary rosenblum
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And you can see if the
structure works.
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ling630
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So you are saying it is the
harder way?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it can cost you a LOT
more revision time, is all, ling.
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mary rosenblum
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If you write a 450 page ms and
then realize that too many things take place in the last third of the
novel...
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mary rosenblum
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and nothing much happens from
chapter three to that last third...
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mary rosenblum
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you're going to have to go
back and build in subplots and maybe bring in new characters to strengthen
that slow stretch.
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mary rosenblum
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And you're going to rewrite
that first draft pretty thoroughly.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you have told the story
to yourself and maybe taken 25 - 30 pages to do so, you can figure out how
to add those subplots and new characters and strengthen that weak
stretch...
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mary rosenblum
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and THEN write 450 pages that
you won't have to complete rewrite. :-)
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ling630
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Thank you. Now I know why it
takes me so long in writing.
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mary rosenblum
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-)
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, ling, I learned this the
hard way, believe me!
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tkat_2
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I prefer the story flow plan by
I'm not afraid to outline if the magazine recommends it.
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mary rosenblum
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It's definitely a matter of
personal choice in shorter work.
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mary rosenblum
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I rarely do a detailed outline
for a short story, unless I'm looking at maybe 10,000 words and a complex
plot.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm much more likely to rough
out a nonfiction article, since the logic flow and organization are
critical.
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mary rosenblum
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For novel length work
though....I am lazy. I do NOT want to rewrite 450 pages or so.
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mary rosenblum
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I love revision but not
rewriting.
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mary rosenblum
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So I get my structure solid
first and then all I am going to have to do on revision is focus on
character and details.
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mary rosenblum
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Much less time, many fewer
words, and a stronger story overall, I have found.
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mary rosenblum
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Those patches you have to
apply after the fact, show.
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christopher dale
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What's nice, to me, about an
outline is that it is not a complete work. It's something to plant sees in
my minds. And when I start writing, those seeds start growing....
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mary rosenblum
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You put your finger right on
it, Chris.
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mary rosenblum
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You are NOT casting your story
into stone when you rough it out ahead of time.
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mary rosenblum
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Who's in charge here? YOU are.
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mary rosenblum
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I have found that when I do a
thorough chapter by chapter outline...
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mary rosenblum
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I diverge from it more and
more as I get into the story . Characters grow and develope in ways I
didn't expect, new things occur to me...
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mary rosenblum
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and I simply annotate my
outline as I make changes.
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acook
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Outlines aren't set in stone
either. They can be ajusted.
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly.
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gwanny
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I outline each story. I have
found that it is easier to change the outline, as the "surprises"
come along, than to delete an entire scene because it wasn't what the story
wanted.
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, that's what I've found.
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tkat_2
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I tried writing the way ling
has. Thank heaven for wordprocessors and personal computers. I wasted a lot
of paper and ink in the beginning. :)
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, I"m sure I"m
responsible for an entire clear-cut of wasted paper, LOL.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question
mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type
/ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
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tension
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How detailed should we get when
doing a short story?
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mary rosenblum
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That's up to you, tension.
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mary rosenblum
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And how you are comfortable
working.
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mary rosenblum
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It is a good idea to know your
dramatic arc at least...
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mary rosenblum
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How much more you do beyond
depends on how you want to work.
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ling630
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Do you make an outline for an
article too?
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mary rosenblum
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I outline nonfiction much more
carefully than fiction, ling.
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mary rosenblum
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Nonfic...excluding personal
narrative...is less about creativity and more about clarity of
information...
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mary rosenblum
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and there, outlining REALLY
helps.
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mary rosenblum
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You simply will not impress a
nonfic editor with a sloppy structure or an erratic logic flow.
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mary rosenblum
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And you won't sell, either.
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ling630
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So the outline is actually the
formula?
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mary rosenblum
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I would call it more a road
map than a formula, ling, but that's just syntax.
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mary rosenblum
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What it can do, the real value
it has...
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mary rosenblum
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is it provides you with a
skeleton for your story in fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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If you begin with the skeleton
of a horse, you can add all kinds of details to turn it into a Percheron or
a pony or a racehorse, pinto, bay, gray....but it's STILL a horse.
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mary rosenblum
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Not something that looks more
like an oversized Dachshund.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
cosmos
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Why aren't there more writing
courses in colleges about structure when it is so critical before you begin
creating? If you don't have the structure down, writing can be a waste of
time until you learn it.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know, cosmos.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, it's one of the
strengths of the LR course...the 'summary' assignments...
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mary rosenblum
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where students are required to
summarize a piece before they write it.
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mary rosenblum
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Drives the students nuts, all
too often, but it's one of the best things they can learn to do.
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tkat_2
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I agree with cosomos I got more
help with courses from ICL and LR than my local college.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I think that's because
LR and ICL are specifically geared to teaching novices how to write
publishable work...
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mary rosenblum
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while college courses are more
theoretical.
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mary rosenblum
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But I'm prejudiced against
college creative writing degrees,. :-)
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christopher dale
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I read somewhere, can't remember
where, the reason those types are taught is because the TEACHERS don't
know, so they teach only what they DO know....
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that probably is a gross
generalization, Chris. :-)
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cosmos
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I know I wouldn't have published
without courses with ICL and LR!
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mary rosenblum
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They're good courses and, as I
said, very specifically oriented to publishing.
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mary rosenblum
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And structure is a BIG part of
that...
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mary rosenblum
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because the publishing world
IS highly competitive and always has been and always will be.
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mary rosenblum
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And a good idea and bad
writing wont get you anything.
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mary rosenblum
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If you turn in a really great
idea and the structure is bad...
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mary rosenblum
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but the editor really thinks
your novel will sell big, do you know what that editor will do?
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mary rosenblum
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Send it back to you, tell you
the structure stinks, and tell you that if you fix it, he'll look at it
again.
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mary rosenblum
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You're still gonna have to fix
it. And if the idea/characters didn't knock his socks off...
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mary rosenblum
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he'll reject it and give you
no reason.
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mary rosenblum
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So learn to look at structure.
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mary rosenblum
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If you simply cannot bring
yourself to outline before you write those 450 pages...
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mary rosenblum
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if you are SURE that you will
kill your story by doing it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Then outline it AFTER you
write it.
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mary rosenblum
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Because that brief summary of
your dramatic high and low points will allow you to look...
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mary rosenblum
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at the dramatic arc and see if
you have the skeleton of a horse here, as you thought you did, or if you
turned out a Dachshund after all. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And to my way of thinking,
you're saving yoruself time if you do the outline before you write that 450
pages. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It is VERY hard as a new
writer to actually see what your plot looks like.
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mary rosenblum
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It gets obscured by character
and setting details.
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mary rosenblum
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It takes quite a bit of
experience, I have found, to develop that good x-ray vision so that you...
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mary rosenblum
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see your plot-skeleton from
the begining.
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christopher dale
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I do several things when writing
long items (novels, etc)... 1) I outline what I would LIKE each chapter to
be. 2) Write out a character discription of ALL the main players 3) Write
out a Timeline (Big gotcha if you forget your timeline... :-)
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christopher dale
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4) Storyboard each chatoer as I
get to it... Not a perfect formula, but seems to work for me.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that's a very meticulous
way to do it, Chris....I'd say your at the 'complete' end of the
spectrum...
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mary rosenblum
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as opposed to the 'three page
road map' end of the spectrum. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But that's certainly going to
give you a solid 'first draft working outline'.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't have to do that
much, though, to still benefit your work.
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ling630
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What is needed in an outline for
a story or article?
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mary rosenblum
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A map of your dramatic points
is going to help you enormously, ling.
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mary rosenblum
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A story arc, large or small,
is made up of a series of dramatic peaks that rise in intensity to the
climax...the highest point of the arc...
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mary rosenblum
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and then generally fall off
quickly to the end.
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mary rosenblum
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If you know what the strong
points of the story will be...
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mary rosenblum
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you can make sure that your
scenes balance...
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mary rosenblum
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so that you don't have a huge
stretch of backstory and not-much-happening...
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mary rosenblum
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and then four strong dramatic
points and your climax all in a handful of pages.
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mary rosenblum
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It's like creating a graph on
graph paper.
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mary rosenblum
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I have, at times, actually
drawn an arc and written in the points where I wanted a dramatic point to
occur...
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mary rosenblum
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and made sure I brought the
story to that peak at about that place in the novel.
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cosmos
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What do you think about National
Novel Writing Month? Do you feel it jumpstarts the process of novel
writing?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Anything that gets
people writing is good.
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mary rosenblum
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It's much better to simply
jump into it and 'learn to swim' as you go than to contemplate it forever
and never do it.
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mary rosenblum
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The more you know about craft,
the better, but just writing a novel length work knowing NOTHING about
craft will help you.
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christopher dale
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Yeah. I got bit BIG without a
timeline.. Ended up 3 months SHORT of where I needed to be. Do you know how
HARD it is to make up 3 months in an A/A?!?!? LOL!
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mary rosenblum
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Timeline is another value of
some kind of working outline.
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mary rosenblum
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Whether your story spans a day
or a year...
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mary rosenblum
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it's a good idea to know when
something is supposed to happen...
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mary rosenblum
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so you don't end up rewriting
half the book, changing winter to summer so that the time works out. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Done that, too.
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gwanny
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I draw a lopsided bell curve
first for a short story...I have learned that this helps. For a 1k word
story, I allow 350 words for opening, 500 as I reach climax, and 150 for my
ending...general rule. Is that about right Mary/
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mary rosenblum
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That's a good proportion,
gwanny.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't let yourself get TOO
stuck on numbers though.
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mary rosenblum
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If you write a dynamite story
with a500 word opening, 450 to reach your climax and a 50 word end and it
works...that's great.
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gwanny
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I don't...but it's a formula
that I am working on that seems to keep me better focused
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever works for you
....works. :-)
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
cosmos
|
National Novel Writing Month is
November. www.nanowrimo.org Chris Baty started it in 1999 and wrote the
book NO PLOT? NO PROBLEM!
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mary rosenblum
|
And quite a few people take up
the challenge every year to write one. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
It's good publicity and good
support for those people who want to write and need the motivaiton to get
started.
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mary rosenblum
|
And do realize, there is
nothing wrong with just starting and seeing where you go...
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mary rosenblum
|
but you will very likely,
unless you have a very strong sense of structure...
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mary rosenblum
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end up having to do quite a
bit of rewriting in order...
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mary rosenblum
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to come up with a really
strong novel.
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writerisme
|
Aproximately how long should a
novel take to write ;-}
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mary rosenblum
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Wow, writer, that's entirely
up to you, your life, your ability to create...
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mary rosenblum
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many factors.
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mary rosenblum
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David Guterson took ten years
to write Snow Falling on Cedars.
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mary rosenblum
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I know a couple of writers
who, on a dare, wrote an entire novel in a four day weekend. Yes they
published it.
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mary rosenblum
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(No, I didn't think it was
very good. :-))
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mary rosenblum
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My agent will get me at least
nine months to write a novel, but I can do it in six if I want to push
myself.
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christopher dale
|
My novel took just over 1 year
(by 1 months?!?!) to write the first draft (Okay - with all the critiquers
I had - 3rd draft... ;-P)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
cosmos
|
Dramatic arc implies rising, a
crest, and falling but in Robert McKee's book, STORY, he talks about the
need of an opposing or opposite reaction to every positive one making the
action arc more jagged. Like laugh/cry.
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mary rosenblum
|
(Sorry, publishing phone call)
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mary rosenblum
|
That's true in a way, but
McKee, like many authors of how to write books...
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mary rosenblum
|
is being, in my opinion, a bit
too formulaic here.
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mary rosenblum
|
While it is the dramatic peak,
valley, dramatic peak jaggedness that carries the story to the...
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mary rosenblum
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climax...it does not HAVE to
be a action/opposition to make that happen.
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mary rosenblum
|
It can be a moment of
revelation on the part of a character followed by a slackening of tension.
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mary rosenblum
|
It can be an arguement,
followed by a reconciliation.
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mary rosenblum
|
Many how to write books get
very specific...
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mary rosenblum
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this many obstacles to your
MC's success...that many failures.
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mary rosenblum
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There are MANY ways to tell a
story well.
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mary rosenblum
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Beware formulas. :-)
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seigfried007
|
Formulas sound kinda like
domesticating the story...
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seigfried007
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capturing it and forcing it into
a little cage
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I share that feeling,
seig.
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mary rosenblum
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Books that offer very specific
formulas for structuring stories are, in my opinion, sort of like training
wheels.
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, they keep you balanced,
but sooner or later you have to take them off and ride on your own.
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tension
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So there's really no set
guidelines to outline. As a novice writer, should I come up with a synopsis
of my story, pick key events that will happen and then expand on these
events. I haven't outlined in the past and have instead tried to walk in
the characters shoes andlet the story unfold that why. What would happen if
.....
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mary rosenblum
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Well, tension, that can work
pretty well in a short story...
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mary rosenblum
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but it's problematical in a
novel length work...
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mary rosenblum
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where you have more than one
story unfolding at the same time...
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mary rosenblum
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your plot and subplots...and
you need to step back...
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mary rosenblum
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and look at the larger picture
so that those various story lines converge and diverge at the right time
and place.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have written that first
draft, try summarizing it...
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mary rosenblum
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go from dramatic peak to
dramatic peak.
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mary rosenblum
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That gives you the plot
skeleton of your story.
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mary rosenblum
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Then stand back and look at it
for awhile.
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mary rosenblum
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Are your dramatic moments
pretty evenly spaced?
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mary rosenblum
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Is there a huge stretch of
pages where Nothing Much Happens?
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mary rosenblum
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Before Chris leaves...
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mary rosenblum
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He does offer you his template
directly...
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christopher dale
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And for those that do NOt want
to go through MS Word's tables and what-not - Send me an e-mail
(Author@candp-ent.com) And I will GLADLY send you a pre-created, blank
tempalte... :-P
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mary rosenblum
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If you're going to plot scene
by scene, it's a nice layout to use.
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mary rosenblum
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I want to bo back to acook's
early question about clustering for a second.
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mary rosenblum
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That outline is very useful
when you're thinking about a new novel...a process I happen to be in the
middle of right now.
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mary rosenblum
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You can begin with
ideas...conflicts you might use, events, action scenes., characeter
issues...
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mary rosenblum
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and simply list them.
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mary rosenblum
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Then begin to lay them out.
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mary rosenblum
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This might come in here...this
later...
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mary rosenblum
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and other incidents might
occur that relate to this or that one of your major ideas...
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mary rosenblum
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Think of them as jigsaw puzzle
pieces and start moving them around.
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mary rosenblum
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See what pictures you can form
with 'em.
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seigfried007
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What is "a huge stretch of
pages"?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, Seig, enough pages that
your readers will be bored. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If I have to plod through a
fifteen page chapter where Nothing Much Happens, you'd sure better wow me
in the first pages of the next chapter.
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mary rosenblum
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If I hit TWO fifteen pages
chapters where Nothing Much Happens...well...I've got this HUGE stack of
books waiting to be read!
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cosmos
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I find that it helps to buy
newsprint rolls to tape on walls to draw the planning story arcs and plot.
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mary rosenblum
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That's an excellent way of
doing it, cosmos.
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cosmos
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For writers on the West Coast,
Mary is teaching workshops at the Willamette Writer's Conference in
Portland August 5-7.
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mary rosenblum
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Thank you, Cosmos. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I am indeed. In August.
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mary rosenblum
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First weekend.
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seigfried007
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What is Nothing Much Happens?
Does plot-related dialogue count?
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mary rosenblum
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What I mean by that,
seigfried, is that there is no dramatic peak.
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mary rosenblum
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There is no rising action or
tension...
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mary rosenblum
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things just happen and happen
and happen...
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mary rosenblum
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and there is no moment when we
think 'wow'.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, say we have a
group of people on a quest...
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mary rosenblum
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and for thee chapters they
make their way through the forest.
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mary rosenblum
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They cross streams, climb
steep cliffs...
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mary rosenblum
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but nobody is at risk, nobody
gets hurt, nobody has a fight over what they're doing, ...
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mary rosenblum
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that is 'Nothing Much Happens'
no matter how pretty the visuals are.
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seigfried007
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so every fifteen pages I have to
'wow' people?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. But not every fifteen
pages. No formulas please.
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mary rosenblum
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But yes, you do need these
small peaks of tension.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be one person catching
a sizzling look passing between his fiance and best friend.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be her sudden
understanding of an earlier cyptic comment that sheds light on the plot...
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mary rosenblum
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it can be an angry
confrontation between two friends over something.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be a very small
dramatic peak or a huge one, like at attack.
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mary rosenblum
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But that is how you create
pacing and keep the reader enthralled...
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mary rosenblum
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it is a constant pressure and
release effect...
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mary rosenblum
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tighten the tension...release
it...tighten the tension...release it.
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mary rosenblum
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Writing IS craft. :-) You DO
these things. They don't just happen.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, they do just happen at
first, then you figure out what you're doing and you do it on purpose.
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cosmos
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www.willamettewriters.com
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks, cosmos. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I'll take the shameless self
promotion opportunity! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I'm going to have to
wrap this up a few minutes early today..
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mary rosenblum
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but essentially, outlining or
summarizing your story is an excellent way to improve your ability to plot
and to create a sound story structure. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you do it first, it will
save you a lot of rewriting, but at least do it.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll start to recognize your
story's skeleton that way.
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mary rosenblum
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And to make it nice and
strong.
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming all!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcript.
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mary rosenblum
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And do drop into our casual
chat...same time and place tomorrow.
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mary rosenblum
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Now that I have finished my
revision marathon, I have a brain again. More or less. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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See you tomorrow!
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