Forum Transcripts

Outlining...Learning Structure 7/5/05

Event start time:

Tue Jul 05 12:03:58 2005

Event end time:

Tue Jul 05 13:27:44 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all.

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great Fourth, those of you below the US/Canada border. :-)

mary rosenblum

(Okay, and any of you in AK, too.)

mary rosenblum

Now,while the fireworks and family barbecues are fresh in your minds...

mary rosenblum

see if you can't come up with a nice Fourth of July story that you can have ready...

mary rosenblum

to sell to editors next winter.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I had a request for this topic, and it's a good one to bring up.

mary rosenblum

Most people start out writing with page one...

mary rosenblum

and write the story all the way through, figuring it out as they go...

mary rosenblum

whether they're writing a novel or a short story.

mary rosenblum

You can spend a lot of rewriting time fixing structural problems that way...

mary rosenblum

or failing to fix structural problems.

mary rosenblum

Which will cost you a sale for sure.

mary rosenblum

Learning how to outline or summarize your plot, large or small, is a great way to improve your grasp of structure and plot.

mary rosenblum

Alas, most new writers have sour memories from highschool English class...

mary rosenblum

of having to construct outlines with all those capital and small letters, Roman numerals, et al...

mary rosenblum

and experience an attack of nausea when the word 'ouline' crops up. :-)

mary rosenblum

They're not the same thing. Don't worry.

writerisme

What's the process of outlining a novel?

mary rosenblum

Well, it can take several forms, writer, and it's the same process for any length of work.

mary rosenblum

A story outline can be nothing more than a one page summary that describes your dramatic arc...

mary rosenblum

we start here, this happens, that happens, this happens, then we reaach the climax, then everything gets wrapped up.

mary rosenblum

That's a working outline at its most basic, and to be honest...

mary rosenblum

it's worth doing, no matter how you fell about outlining.

mary rosenblum

The other end of this spectrum is the very detailed, chapter by chapter outline.

mary rosenblum

Here, the author simply summarizes each chapter, scene by scene.

mary rosenblum

That working outline may be twenty five pages long and may actually function as a first draft.

acook

How does clustering fit into outlining?

mary rosenblum

What do you mean by clustering, acook? That's one of those 'fuzzy terms' that means what the person using it wants it to mean. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

christopher dale

Blatant self-promotion - As many know I have written a Sotryboard article, published on this site. I use this for a detailed outline for novel writing. I may or may not use a brief outline for short stories. Just depending on how the "flow" feels that

mary rosenblum

Yes, it's a good template for that sort of chapter by chapter and scene by scene summary...

mary rosenblum

I recommend it. :-)

mary rosenblum

One of the most common arguments against outlining I've heard is that the writer...'has to be surprised by the story'...

mary rosenblum

in other words, is going to lose interest in the novel once that outline is completed.

acook

I learned from text books to cluster - idea on paper.

mary rosenblum

Ah, okay, that's what I thought you meant, acook. Thanks.

ling630

If you let your intuition take you is that not good writing?

mary rosenblum

Sure it's good writing. But I hate to tell you...you are going to work wiht that draft over and over again...

mary rosenblum

you are NOT going to write it once, sell, it and see it in print.

mary rosenblum

So if it kills the 'fun' once it is down on paper..brace yourself. :-) Because you're going to spend a LOT more time with it.

mary rosenblum

So....let why not let your intuition take you where it will...let the story unfold as it will...

mary rosenblum

by try doing it in shorthand.

mary rosenblum

Make notes, rough out the story, where the characters go, what they do, how they behave...

mary rosenblum

and when you're done, however many pages it takes you...

mary rosenblum

what you have is a working outline or a shortand first draft...whichever you prefer.

mary rosenblum

And you can see if the structure works.

ling630

So you are saying it is the harder way?

mary rosenblum

Well, it can cost you a LOT more revision time, is all, ling.

mary rosenblum

If you write a 450 page ms and then realize that too many things take place in the last third of the novel...

mary rosenblum

and nothing much happens from chapter three to that last third...

mary rosenblum

you're going to have to go back and build in subplots and maybe bring in new characters to strengthen that slow stretch.

mary rosenblum

And you're going to rewrite that first draft pretty thoroughly.

mary rosenblum

But if you have told the story to yourself and maybe taken 25 - 30 pages to do so, you can figure out how to add those subplots and new characters and strengthen that weak stretch...

mary rosenblum

and THEN write 450 pages that you won't have to complete rewrite. :-)

ling630

Thank you. Now I know why it takes me so long in writing.

mary rosenblum

-)

mary rosenblum

Oh, ling, I learned this the hard way, believe me!

tkat_2

I prefer the story flow plan by I'm not afraid to outline if the magazine recommends it.

mary rosenblum

It's definitely a matter of personal choice in shorter work.

mary rosenblum

I rarely do a detailed outline for a short story, unless I'm looking at maybe 10,000 words and a complex plot.

mary rosenblum

I'm much more likely to rough out a nonfiction article, since the logic flow and organization are critical.

mary rosenblum

For novel length work though....I am lazy. I do NOT want to rewrite 450 pages or so.

mary rosenblum

I love revision but not rewriting.

mary rosenblum

So I get my structure solid first and then all I am going to have to do on revision is focus on character and details.

mary rosenblum

Much less time, many fewer words, and a stronger story overall, I have found.

mary rosenblum

Those patches you have to apply after the fact, show.

christopher dale

What's nice, to me, about an outline is that it is not a complete work. It's something to plant sees in my minds. And when I start writing, those seeds start growing....

mary rosenblum

You put your finger right on it, Chris.

mary rosenblum

You are NOT casting your story into stone when you rough it out ahead of time.

mary rosenblum

Who's in charge here? YOU are.

mary rosenblum

I have found that when I do a thorough chapter by chapter outline...

mary rosenblum

I diverge from it more and more as I get into the story . Characters grow and develope in ways I didn't expect, new things occur to me...

mary rosenblum

and I simply annotate my outline as I make changes.

acook

Outlines aren't set in stone either. They can be ajusted.

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

gwanny

I outline each story. I have found that it is easier to change the outline, as the "surprises" come along, than to delete an entire scene because it wasn't what the story wanted.

mary rosenblum

Yep, that's what I've found.

tkat_2

I tried writing the way ling has. Thank heaven for wordprocessors and personal computers. I wasted a lot of paper and ink in the beginning. :)

mary rosenblum

Oh, I"m sure I"m responsible for an entire clear-cut of wasted paper, LOL.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tension

How detailed should we get when doing a short story?

mary rosenblum

That's up to you, tension.

mary rosenblum

And how you are comfortable working.

mary rosenblum

It is a good idea to know your dramatic arc at least...

mary rosenblum

How much more you do beyond depends on how you want to work.

ling630

Do you make an outline for an article too?

mary rosenblum

I outline nonfiction much more carefully than fiction, ling.

mary rosenblum

Nonfic...excluding personal narrative...is less about creativity and more about clarity of information...

mary rosenblum

and there, outlining REALLY helps.

mary rosenblum

You simply will not impress a nonfic editor with a sloppy structure or an erratic logic flow.

mary rosenblum

And you won't sell, either.

ling630

So the outline is actually the formula?

mary rosenblum

I would call it more a road map than a formula, ling, but that's just syntax.

mary rosenblum

What it can do, the real value it has...

mary rosenblum

is it provides you with a skeleton for your story in fiction.

mary rosenblum

If you begin with the skeleton of a horse, you can add all kinds of details to turn it into a Percheron or a pony or a racehorse, pinto, bay, gray....but it's STILL a horse.

mary rosenblum

Not something that looks more like an oversized Dachshund.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

cosmos

Why aren't there more writing courses in colleges about structure when it is so critical before you begin creating? If you don't have the structure down, writing can be a waste of time until you learn it.

mary rosenblum

I don't know, cosmos.

mary rosenblum

Actually, it's one of the strengths of the LR course...the 'summary' assignments...

mary rosenblum

where students are required to summarize a piece before they write it.

mary rosenblum

Drives the students nuts, all too often, but it's one of the best things they can learn to do.

tkat_2

I agree with cosomos I got more help with courses from ICL and LR than my local college.

mary rosenblum

Well, I think that's because LR and ICL are specifically geared to teaching novices how to write publishable work...

mary rosenblum

while college courses are more theoretical.

mary rosenblum

But I'm prejudiced against college creative writing degrees,. :-)

christopher dale

I read somewhere, can't remember where, the reason those types are taught is because the TEACHERS don't know, so they teach only what they DO know....

mary rosenblum

Well, that probably is a gross generalization, Chris. :-)

cosmos

I know I wouldn't have published without courses with ICL and LR!

mary rosenblum

They're good courses and, as I said, very specifically oriented to publishing.

mary rosenblum

And structure is a BIG part of that...

mary rosenblum

because the publishing world IS highly competitive and always has been and always will be.

mary rosenblum

And a good idea and bad writing wont get you anything.

mary rosenblum

If you turn in a really great idea and the structure is bad...

mary rosenblum

but the editor really thinks your novel will sell big, do you know what that editor will do?

mary rosenblum

Send it back to you, tell you the structure stinks, and tell you that if you fix it, he'll look at it again.

mary rosenblum

You're still gonna have to fix it. And if the idea/characters didn't knock his socks off...

mary rosenblum

he'll reject it and give you no reason.

mary rosenblum

So learn to look at structure.

mary rosenblum

If you simply cannot bring yourself to outline before you write those 450 pages...

mary rosenblum

if you are SURE that you will kill your story by doing it. :-)

mary rosenblum

Then outline it AFTER you write it.

mary rosenblum

Because that brief summary of your dramatic high and low points will allow you to look...

mary rosenblum

at the dramatic arc and see if you have the skeleton of a horse here, as you thought you did, or if you turned out a Dachshund after all. :-)

mary rosenblum

And to my way of thinking, you're saving yoruself time if you do the outline before you write that 450 pages. :-)

mary rosenblum

It is VERY hard as a new writer to actually see what your plot looks like.

mary rosenblum

It gets obscured by character and setting details.

mary rosenblum

It takes quite a bit of experience, I have found, to develop that good x-ray vision so that you...

mary rosenblum

see your plot-skeleton from the begining.

christopher dale

I do several things when writing long items (novels, etc)... 1) I outline what I would LIKE each chapter to be. 2) Write out a character discription of ALL the main players 3) Write out a Timeline (Big gotcha if you forget your timeline... :-)

christopher dale

4) Storyboard each chatoer as I get to it... Not a perfect formula, but seems to work for me.

mary rosenblum

Well, that's a very meticulous way to do it, Chris....I'd say your at the 'complete' end of the spectrum...

mary rosenblum

as opposed to the 'three page road map' end of the spectrum. :-)

mary rosenblum

But that's certainly going to give you a solid 'first draft working outline'.

mary rosenblum

You don't have to do that much, though, to still benefit your work.

ling630

What is needed in an outline for a story or article?

mary rosenblum

A map of your dramatic points is going to help you enormously, ling.

mary rosenblum

A story arc, large or small, is made up of a series of dramatic peaks that rise in intensity to the climax...the highest point of the arc...

mary rosenblum

and then generally fall off quickly to the end.

mary rosenblum

If you know what the strong points of the story will be...

mary rosenblum

you can make sure that your scenes balance...

mary rosenblum

so that you don't have a huge stretch of backstory and not-much-happening...

mary rosenblum

and then four strong dramatic points and your climax all in a handful of pages.

mary rosenblum

It's like creating a graph on graph paper.

mary rosenblum

I have, at times, actually drawn an arc and written in the points where I wanted a dramatic point to occur...

mary rosenblum

and made sure I brought the story to that peak at about that place in the novel.

cosmos

What do you think about National Novel Writing Month? Do you feel it jumpstarts the process of novel writing?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Anything that gets people writing is good.

mary rosenblum

It's much better to simply jump into it and 'learn to swim' as you go than to contemplate it forever and never do it.

mary rosenblum

The more you know about craft, the better, but just writing a novel length work knowing NOTHING about craft will help you.

christopher dale

Yeah. I got bit BIG without a timeline.. Ended up 3 months SHORT of where I needed to be. Do you know how HARD it is to make up 3 months in an A/A?!?!? LOL!

mary rosenblum

Timeline is another value of some kind of working outline.

mary rosenblum

Whether your story spans a day or a year...

mary rosenblum

it's a good idea to know when something is supposed to happen...

mary rosenblum

so you don't end up rewriting half the book, changing winter to summer so that the time works out. :-)

mary rosenblum

Done that, too.

gwanny

I draw a lopsided bell curve first for a short story...I have learned that this helps. For a 1k word story, I allow 350 words for opening, 500 as I reach climax, and 150 for my ending...general rule. Is that about right Mary/

mary rosenblum

That's a good proportion, gwanny.

mary rosenblum

Don't let yourself get TOO stuck on numbers though.

mary rosenblum

If you write a dynamite story with a500 word opening, 450 to reach your climax and a 50 word end and it works...that's great.

gwanny

I don't...but it's a formula that I am working on that seems to keep me better focused

mary rosenblum

Whatever works for you ....works. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

cosmos

National Novel Writing Month is November. www.nanowrimo.org Chris Baty started it in 1999 and wrote the book NO PLOT? NO PROBLEM!

mary rosenblum

And quite a few people take up the challenge every year to write one. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's good publicity and good support for those people who want to write and need the motivaiton to get started.

mary rosenblum

And do realize, there is nothing wrong with just starting and seeing where you go...

mary rosenblum

but you will very likely, unless you have a very strong sense of structure...

mary rosenblum

end up having to do quite a bit of rewriting in order...

mary rosenblum

to come up with a really strong novel.

writerisme

Aproximately how long should a novel take to write ;-}

mary rosenblum

Wow, writer, that's entirely up to you, your life, your ability to create...

mary rosenblum

many factors.

mary rosenblum

David Guterson took ten years to write Snow Falling on Cedars.

mary rosenblum

I know a couple of writers who, on a dare, wrote an entire novel in a four day weekend. Yes they published it.

mary rosenblum

(No, I didn't think it was very good. :-))

mary rosenblum

My agent will get me at least nine months to write a novel, but I can do it in six if I want to push myself.

christopher dale

My novel took just over 1 year (by 1 months?!?!) to write the first draft (Okay - with all the critiquers I had - 3rd draft... ;-P)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about outlining. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

cosmos

Dramatic arc implies rising, a crest, and falling but in Robert McKee's book, STORY, he talks about the need of an opposing or opposite reaction to every positive one making the action arc more jagged. Like laugh/cry.

mary rosenblum

(Sorry, publishing phone call)

mary rosenblum

That's true in a way, but McKee, like many authors of how to write books...

mary rosenblum

is being, in my opinion, a bit too formulaic here.

mary rosenblum

While it is the dramatic peak, valley, dramatic peak jaggedness that carries the story to the...

mary rosenblum

climax...it does not HAVE to be a action/opposition to make that happen.

mary rosenblum

It can be a moment of revelation on the part of a character followed by a slackening of tension.

mary rosenblum

It can be an arguement, followed by a reconciliation.

mary rosenblum

Many how to write books get very specific...

mary rosenblum

this many obstacles to your MC's success...that many failures.

mary rosenblum

There are MANY ways to tell a story well.

mary rosenblum

Beware formulas. :-)

seigfried007

Formulas sound kinda like domesticating the story...

seigfried007

capturing it and forcing it into a little cage

mary rosenblum

Well, I share that feeling, seig.

mary rosenblum

Books that offer very specific formulas for structuring stories are, in my opinion, sort of like training wheels.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, they keep you balanced, but sooner or later you have to take them off and ride on your own.

tension

So there's really no set guidelines to outline. As a novice writer, should I come up with a synopsis of my story, pick key events that will happen and then expand on these events. I haven't outlined in the past and have instead tried to walk in the characters shoes andlet the story unfold that why. What would happen if .....

mary rosenblum

Well, tension, that can work pretty well in a short story...

mary rosenblum

but it's problematical in a novel length work...

mary rosenblum

where you have more than one story unfolding at the same time...

mary rosenblum

your plot and subplots...and you need to step back...

mary rosenblum

and look at the larger picture so that those various story lines converge and diverge at the right time and place.

mary rosenblum

If you have written that first draft, try summarizing it...

mary rosenblum

go from dramatic peak to dramatic peak.

mary rosenblum

That gives you the plot skeleton of your story.

mary rosenblum

Then stand back and look at it for awhile.

mary rosenblum

Are your dramatic moments pretty evenly spaced?

mary rosenblum

Is there a huge stretch of pages where Nothing Much Happens?

mary rosenblum

Before Chris leaves...

mary rosenblum

He does offer you his template directly...

christopher dale

And for those that do NOt want to go through MS Word's tables and what-not - Send me an e-mail (Author@candp-ent.com) And I will GLADLY send you a pre-created, blank tempalte... :-P

mary rosenblum

If you're going to plot scene by scene, it's a nice layout to use.

mary rosenblum

I want to bo back to acook's early question about clustering for a second.

mary rosenblum

That outline is very useful when you're thinking about a new novel...a process I happen to be in the middle of right now.

mary rosenblum

You can begin with ideas...conflicts you might use, events, action scenes., characeter issues...

mary rosenblum

and simply list them.

mary rosenblum

Then begin to lay them out.

mary rosenblum

This might come in here...this later...

mary rosenblum

and other incidents might occur that relate to this or that one of your major ideas...

mary rosenblum

Think of them as jigsaw puzzle pieces and start moving them around.

mary rosenblum

See what pictures you can form with 'em.

seigfried007

What is "a huge stretch of pages"?

mary rosenblum

Well, Seig, enough pages that your readers will be bored. :-)

mary rosenblum

If I have to plod through a fifteen page chapter where Nothing Much Happens, you'd sure better wow me in the first pages of the next chapter.

mary rosenblum

If I hit TWO fifteen pages chapters where Nothing Much Happens...well...I've got this HUGE stack of books waiting to be read!

cosmos

I find that it helps to buy newsprint rolls to tape on walls to draw the planning story arcs and plot.

mary rosenblum

That's an excellent way of doing it, cosmos.

cosmos

For writers on the West Coast, Mary is teaching workshops at the Willamette Writer's Conference in Portland August 5-7.

mary rosenblum

Thank you, Cosmos. :-)

mary rosenblum

I am indeed. In August.

mary rosenblum

First weekend.

seigfried007

What is Nothing Much Happens? Does plot-related dialogue count?

mary rosenblum

What I mean by that, seigfried, is that there is no dramatic peak.

mary rosenblum

There is no rising action or tension...

mary rosenblum

things just happen and happen and happen...

mary rosenblum

and there is no moment when we think 'wow'.

mary rosenblum

For example, say we have a group of people on a quest...

mary rosenblum

and for thee chapters they make their way through the forest.

mary rosenblum

They cross streams, climb steep cliffs...

mary rosenblum

but nobody is at risk, nobody gets hurt, nobody has a fight over what they're doing, ...

mary rosenblum

that is 'Nothing Much Happens' no matter how pretty the visuals are.

seigfried007

so every fifteen pages I have to 'wow' people?

mary rosenblum

Yep. But not every fifteen pages. No formulas please.

mary rosenblum

But yes, you do need these small peaks of tension.

mary rosenblum

It can be one person catching a sizzling look passing between his fiance and best friend.

mary rosenblum

It can be her sudden understanding of an earlier cyptic comment that sheds light on the plot...

mary rosenblum

it can be an angry confrontation between two friends over something.

mary rosenblum

It can be a very small dramatic peak or a huge one, like at attack.

mary rosenblum

But that is how you create pacing and keep the reader enthralled...

mary rosenblum

it is a constant pressure and release effect...

mary rosenblum

tighten the tension...release it...tighten the tension...release it.

mary rosenblum

Writing IS craft. :-) You DO these things. They don't just happen.

mary rosenblum

Well, they do just happen at first, then you figure out what you're doing and you do it on purpose.

cosmos

www.willamettewriters.com

mary rosenblum

Thanks, cosmos. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'll take the shameless self promotion opportunity! :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, I'm going to have to wrap this up a few minutes early today..

mary rosenblum

but essentially, outlining or summarizing your story is an excellent way to improve your ability to plot and to create a sound story structure. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you do it first, it will save you a lot of rewriting, but at least do it.

mary rosenblum

You'll start to recognize your story's skeleton that way.

mary rosenblum

And to make it nice and strong.

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming all!

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcript.

mary rosenblum

And do drop into our casual chat...same time and place tomorrow.

mary rosenblum

Now that I have finished my revision marathon, I have a brain again. More or less. :-)

mary rosenblum

See you tomorrow!

 

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