Forum Transcripts

Open Question Night: POV, Cinematic POV, and more 2/24/06

Event start time:

Fri Feb 24 19:04:04 2006

Event end time:

Fri Feb 24 20:31:06 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all.

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours Forum

mary rosenblum

It has been some time since I've held an 'open question' night, so I figured this was a good time.

mary rosenblum

So this is the time to ask any questions you have about anything related to writing.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

geezer

How does cinematic and telling differ?

mary rosenblum

Ooooh, GOOD question, geeze!

mary rosenblum

Cinematic is simply a type of third person POV where the author ONLY conveys visual information to the reader.

mary rosenblum

We do not know what any character is thinking, seeing, or feeling...we are looking at the scene from outside...

mary rosenblum

as if we are in a seat at the theater...hence the name 'cinematic'.

mary rosenblum

You can 'show' action cinematically.

mary rosenblum

Telling, on the other hand, is the author obviously narrating...the author is TELLING us what that author sees.

mary rosenblum

We get the information second hand.

mary rosenblum

A good 'showing' scene gives us the impression that we are seeing the action happen.

mary rosenblum

You can 'tell' a cinematic scene or 'show' it.

mary rosenblum

Let me give you an example:

mary rosenblum

The cavalry trotted into the meadow from the mouth of the valley just as the Voldorean footsoldiers struggled up from the riverbank. A sudden cloud swept across the sun and a thick dusk darkened the plain.

mary rosenblum

With a wild whoop, the cavalry spurred their shaggy ponies into a charge, curved scimitars gleaming as they pounded across the frozen grass.

mary rosenblum

We're seeing this scene from a distance, we're not inside anyone's POV...that is we are not seeing the scene through any one character's eyes.

mary rosenblum

We're seeing the whole, vast battle scene as if we are perched on a hilltop.

codeblue

Ok cenematic is how??

mary rosenblum

This is cinematic, code.

mary rosenblum

We're seeing the entire meadow, the cavalry on one side, the footsoldiers on the other, the charge of the cavalry...

mary rosenblum

but we are seeing this from a distance. We are not on a horse swinging a scimitar, we are waaaay back, seeing hundreds of individuals at once.

mary rosenblum

Now here's the TOLD version:

mary rosenblum

The cavalry trotted into the meadow from the mouth of the valley after riding all night. They were tired and their ponies's shaggy coats were caked with the red mud that lined...

mary rosenblum

the river banks like dried blood. The Voldorean footsoldiers were straggling up the riverbank. They looked like refugees from a slum in their mismatched battle gear and rusty weapons. Just as they reached the meadow...

mary rosenblum

a dark cloud swept across the sun as if the gods didn't want to watch the coming slaughter. But they still kept coming. Nobody ever said Voldoreans had any brains, but you had to admire them

mary rosenblum

This is 'telling'. You hear someone's personal opinions behind this. Yes, you get more information, and there is nothing wrong with this type of narrative...

mary rosenblum

if that is what makes the story works.

mary rosenblum

Where it does not work is if you want the reader to feel as if he/she is living that battle. Then the 'telling' voice reminds us...

mary rosenblum

with every sentence that we are not there.

codeblue

so it's action verses narration??

mary rosenblum

Pure action versus narration is showing versus telling, code.

mary rosenblum

You can 'tell' a cinematic POV or you can 'show' a cinematic POV>

mary rosenblum

Cinematic simply means 'like a movie'.

mary rosenblum

You see the action only, you do not know what any character is thinking, and the 'view' is from a distance most of the time.

andi

where does that come in

mary rosenblum

It's a great way to show a scene that one single POV cannot see. Take our battle for example...

mary rosenblum

if our POV character is one of the cavalry people, he's not going to be able to see the whole scene...

mary rosenblum

just what is in front of him.

tory

Mary, what about a closer POV than your example, where one character is observing others. EX: Sheila noticed tears in Clara's eyes. Is this showing or telling? If you say Tears rolled down Clara's cheeks" is it assumed that Sheila is noticing that?

mary rosenblum

That's a limited third person POV, tory.

mary rosenblum

Here, we are 'limited' to what Sheila sees/hears/thinks/smells/tastes/feels.

mary rosenblum

Again, you can tell or show.

mary rosenblum

Sheila noticed tears in Clara's eyes. "Come on, sweetheart." She put her hand on the girl's shoulder. "Let's go take a walk."

mary rosenblum

This is Sheila feeling sorry for Clara and wanting to comfort her. Since we have to figure that out from her words and actions, that is SHOWING. Here, I'll tell you what is going on.

mary rosenblum

Shela noticed the tears in Clara's eyes. She felt terribly sorry for the poor girl. Maybe she should take her for a walk and let her know what was really going on. "Come on, sweetheart.' She put her hand on the girl's shoulder. "Let's go take a walk.'

mary rosenblum

So we know lots more...we know everything that is going on in Sheila's head...BUT...that is not how we figure out ...

mary rosenblum

what someone is thinking and feeling in real life. In real life we'd hear Sheila's words, see the hand on the shoulder, and think...

mary rosenblum

what a nice woman Sheila is to go comfort Clara.

mary rosenblum

More is often less in fiction. Allowing your readers to figure it out for themselves makes the readers feel as if they are really there.

geezer

So if I were to give a quick "lay of the land" it would be cinematic?

mary rosenblum

That's often the best way to do it, geeze, unless your POV character has a reason to look around carefully.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

wingedwarrior24

you cannot switch from show to tell or vice verca?

mary rosenblum

Telling can be the BEST way to do something. If your narrator has a powerful voice, it may actually add to the story. But if you are 'showing' the story..

mary rosenblum

then no, I would not tell. Yes, it's harder to get information to the reader, but every time you tell, you pop your head into the scene and say...'hey, reader, guess what? This isn't real'.

mary rosenblum

And the readers hear you.

mary rosenblum

One of the big divides between good story ideas that do not sell and good story ideas that DO sell...

mary rosenblum

is when the novice writer masters 'show don't tell' and good characterization.

mary rosenblum

It is hard to do and those are the two biggest reasons slush stories stay in the slush,

tory

I htought the first was showing, but someone told me it's telling and to change it. Thanks for clarifying.

mary rosenblum

A lot of people have misconceptions about what show and tell mean, tory.

mary rosenblum

A character's thoughts are not 'telling'.

mary rosenblum

They are in the character's voice. The author's voice is telling.

wingedwarrior24

If an editor rejects a peice, can you rewrite it and send again?

mary rosenblum

Not unless the editor has made a specific comment, winged. If the editor says, 'nice story, but the ending dind't work for me. I thought the guy should go back'.

mary rosenblum

And you decide that ending could work, you can revise the story and send it back.

mary rosenblum

Then you include a letter, 'Dear Editor, thank you so much for your helpful comments on my story Excalibur. You know you're right. My ending really was weak. I tried having him go back, as you suggested, and I'm really pleased with how it turned out. I'm enclosing a copy in case you'd like to take another look.'

mary rosenblum

More often than not, if you have gotten a specific critique and you change the story accordingly, the editor will take it.

mary rosenblum

Not always. Sometimes you don't make enough of a change...

mary rosenblum

and sometimes the editor is just being helpful because you are close to selling and she'd like to help you out...

mary rosenblum

but she never planned to buy the story in the first place.

codeblue

does descriptive paragraphs work for showing and telling??

mary rosenblum

Well descriptive paragraphs are just paragraphs of visuals or action, code. You can either tell us about it or we can see it for ourselves. Either way.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Also remember that if you get personal comments from an editor, it means that editor thinks he or she is going to buy from you shortly...

mary rosenblum

and is taking time to help you along so he/she can!

mary rosenblum

Send everything good to that editor first!

janecj333

So, changing "Maybe she should take her for a walk..." to "I should take her for a walk..." becomes 'showing' because it's in the pov character's voice?

mary rosenblum

Yes, you could do that. But you know what? Too much thought bogs down the scene. I think nearly every reader would make the same assumptions...

mary rosenblum

that Sheila felt sorry for Carla and was going to take her for a walk to comfort her or try and cheer her up without any thought on Sheila's part.

mary rosenblum

I started out using a lot of thought to reveal character motivations when I first started writing...

mary rosenblum

but I have found that I can use very few thoughts and reveal most of my characters' feelings and thoughts just fine...

mary rosenblum

through actions and words. So I can keep thought to a minimum.

janecj333

so, just leave the sentence out

mary rosenblum

I would. We hear her say something that suggests she sympathizes. We see her put her arm around Carla's shoulders...

mary rosenblum

and we hear her say let's go for a walk. I bet 99 percent of your readers will get it. :-) Or more.

geezer

The headwaters of the White River originated in the high mountains that bordered Zuzim. By the time they reached the caldera below they were a raging river. Cinematic and telling?

mary rosenblum

Telling geeze. We can't SEE that the headwater originated in the high mountains. we're at the caldera below, right?

mary rosenblum

Here's showing:

mary rosenblum

The White River tumbled down the mountain in a curtain of white spray, churning the caldera into foam before they raged down to the sea.

mary rosenblum

I'm sitting on a crag where I can see the river fall into the caldera, spill over, and dissappear seaward down the hill.

mary rosenblum

To do cinematic, pick a spot in your world, sit your backside down on it, and look at your world.

mary rosenblum

Now describe to the reader exactly what you see and NOTHING else.

mary rosenblum

Not what you KNOW. What you SEE.

mary rosenblum

That's cinematic. :-) It is what you see not what you know.

codeblue

so it is like seeing every moment in time as it actually hap

mary rosenblum

Yep! Exactly!!!

mary rosenblum

Hey, POV, showing and telling are HARD!!!

mary rosenblum

That's why you start selling when you master 'em. You don't have a huge amount of competition. :-)

megger

"The aisle looked miles long. I knew my new husband waited at the end of that long walk and I stepped into a new world." Cinematic?

mary rosenblum

This is first person, megger. Cinematic is a third person POV. Now I've really confused you right? :-)

mary rosenblum

But think about it...first person is a character telling us the story. Period.

andi

the one i sent out and sent back with the characters weak. should i sent it back there>?

mary rosenblum

If the editor didn't write anything on it, don't send it back, andi. Just send a story with stronger characters next time. Fix this story and send it to someone else.

mary rosenblum

Editors get REMEMBER stories. :-) And they don't read 'em if they come back again without an invitation.

mary rosenblum

(specific comments on a rejection are considered to be an invitation)

mary rosenblum

Do realize that 'nice story but it didn't work for me' is not a specific comment.

mary rosenblum

It is a nice no thanks that editors use. Translation: I don't want this story.

megger

"I knew she was thinking about the long walk . Her eyes told the story of the journey she was just beginning." Not terribly cinematic but third person, yes?

mary rosenblum

You're still doing first, megger. I knew she was thinking about the long walk. That 'I' makes it first person. I is telling the story, whoever he/she is.

andi

like them saying the mc didn't stand out.

mary rosenblum

Well, that's actually fairly specific andi. If you revise the story and make the character come alive, you could try it again. Tell the editor that thanks to his/her comments...

mary rosenblum

you went back and fixed it.

mary rosenblum

Your only cost is postage.

mary rosenblum

Megger, here's the third person version.

mary rosenblum

Randy knew she was thinking about the long walk. Her eyes told the story of the journey she was just beginning.

mary rosenblum

Randy is thinkin that her eyes tell the story of her journey. That's limited third. We're aware of Randy's throughts.

mary rosenblum

In Cinematic you have no thoughts, no knowing...you just see.

mary rosenblum

Well, you can hear, too. :-)

megger

Thanks, Mary. I seem to do first person every time I put pen to paper.

mary rosenblum

Well, that's probably your natural voice.

mary rosenblum

Everybody seems to favor one or the other.

mary rosenblum

I'm a natural third. I had to work HARD to get good at first.

mary rosenblum

I still only use it when the story demands it.

mary rosenblum

And sometimes it does.

mary rosenblum

I hated it when I first tried to write it. And boy did that show, LOL.

mary rosenblum

I do it really well now, but I still don't LIKE to use it.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

ashton

This isn't a question, just a thought to ponder. Several years ago I left a comment on a space/astronomy site and the editor wrote me back, said my way of writing intrigued her. A few emails later I was their new staff writer/researcher. You just never know "who" is truly watching what you write when you write it. Just takes one good line to hook an editor and keep them wanting to read more. That said...Hello everyone!

mary rosenblum

Oh, marvelous point, Ashton!!!

mary rosenblum

And congratulations, by the way.

mary rosenblum

Let me talk about the 'cast your bread upon the waters' aspect of a writing career.

mary rosenblum

It is all about that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

Don't get so focused on getting paid for every word you write that you don't do anything that you can't submit for money.

mary rosenblum

Get your words out there.

mary rosenblum

Show up on internet boards and chat rooms frequented by people in the genre you write in...

mary rosenblum

and be articulate and entertaining.

mary rosenblum

You never know when one of those posters or chatters is an editor. :-)

mary rosenblum

They're at least future fans.

mary rosenblum

I've met people on boards and chat rooms or at cons and been impressed with them...

mary rosenblum

and have done my best to give 'em a hand up later.

mary rosenblum

If I've had the opportunity. People did that for me, too.

mary rosenblum

The more you are visible, the more people will see you...and remember you. Positively, right???? :-)

mary rosenblum

I have asked people to submit stuff to me for the LR website because of something they wrote, or posted on the Post It or said in the chatroom.

mary rosenblum

The nice thing about the writing community is that it's a very welcoming community.

mary rosenblum

A lot of people in the biz did nice things for me as I was clawing my way over the wall.

mary rosenblum

If you think about it, we are all competing with each other, but the sense is 'we're all in this together against the publishing world and numbers'. LOL

ashton

Exactly! My story continued when the founder of the TBRC read one of my stories as he was surfing. He got in contact with me and the next thing I knew I had a piece featured in his national newsletter! Let me tell you...I was on cloud nine. Still am. He wrote me back and thanked me, asked if I'd be interested in writing for him again...and he said he'd gotten a lot of positive feedback from my story.

mary rosenblum

There you go! That's a classic case of 'bread upon the waters'. :-) Good for you, ashton.

geezer

I've read several books by an author that I like, but in two she uses first perso. She says things like: I poured the coffee. I put sugar in it. I stirred it. Is this bad writing or am I hypercritical?

mary rosenblum

It's hard to say, geeze, without seeing a bigger sample. She might have been creating the effect of someone in shock, noticing every detail, or creating...

mary rosenblum

the effect of boredom, or of time stretching out. Hard to say.

mary rosenblum

Alas, 'published' is absolutely NO guarantee of quality.

mary rosenblum

If readers are willing to by dreck...and many are... and the dreck is publishable, that is what gets published.

mary rosenblum

Really wonderful things are published, too, but there is no absolute standard by which all fiction is measures.

mary rosenblum

And that is SO frustrating when you read something while you are struggling like mad to get published and you think...

mary rosenblum

I can write better than that! How come THAT got published and mine isn't?

mary rosenblum

It will drive you nuts if you dwell on it.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Remember...this is 'ask any question' night. :-)

mary rosenblum

We've been getting some good ones!

codeblue

So how do you put 3yrs into 3ooo words??

mary rosenblum

Transitions, code.

mary rosenblum

YOu can end a scene...say it's summer. Then skip a line, center a * on it . Next scene begins...

mary rosenblum

Winter winds howled down the chimney and Rachel shivered, wondering if Brenner would ever return.

mary rosenblum

We have a when...winter...the who..Rachel...and a bit of what is going on. That's a clear transition.

codeblue

one inportant event to the next??

mary rosenblum

Well find a place to end the action now, decide when your next important scene will take place and then just LEAP there...

mary rosenblum

bring the readers in for a solid landing by instantly...like in the first sentence...giving us time, place, and POV.

megger

My book club just read 'Gilead' and I'm still struggling to figure out why it was a Pulitzer prize winner. Perspective is a very interesting thing....

mary rosenblum

Well, megger, awards are funny things.

mary rosenblum

Most of them are very political. They are juried, like the Edgar Awards or the Pulitzer...

mary rosenblum

or they are chosen by readers, like the Hugo.

mary rosenblum

Or they are voted on by other writers, like the Nebulas.

mary rosenblum

When you get juried awards, the politics of who likes whom, who is whose protege, etc, comes into play. :-)

mary rosenblum

I personally think that the readers awards are the most important. THEY buy your books! :-) But it's true...

mary rosenblum

that a Pulitzer or a Newbury will send your sales rocketing. So will Oprah! LOL

megger

Which would you rather win?

mary rosenblum

The reader award.

mary rosenblum

I've been a Hugo nominee...that means that enough readers wrote in an nominated my story that I was one of five people that year chosen as a finalist.

mary rosenblum

That is VERY important to me. It means I connected with my readers.

mary rosenblum

I've won some other readers awards and been a finalist for most of the sf juried awards.

wingedwarrior24

very good mary, on that subject have you gotten any more info in the release of horizon?

mary rosenblum

It'll be out in November, Winged. I saw the rough sketch for the cover. It looks good. :-)

ltsonya

I've been looking at guidelines for magazines and am confused with the different subgenres of fantasy - high fantasy, magic realism, sword & sorcery, traditional, heroic. Can you help me out, Mary?

mary rosenblum

Sure ltsonya...those subgenres sort of overlap a bit.

mary rosenblum

High fantasy is sort of Tolkienesque...elves warriors, etc.

mary rosenblum

Good and evil battle, good wins in the end.

mary rosenblum

That pretty much covers sword and sorcery, too...you have magic and swords.

mary rosenblum

Contemporary fantasy is set in the modern world.

mary rosenblum

I suppose Harry Potter could be called contemporary fantasy for that matter.

mary rosenblum

Magic realism is a type of contemporary fantasy...it's mostly in the eye of the beholder. :-)

mary rosenblum

I write magic realism that often sometimes sells to mainstream antholgies and sometimes sells to fantasy anthologies. :-)

mary rosenblum

Depends on which editor likes what.

mary rosenblum

traditional covers just about everything except contemporary... Actually HP would probably be called more 'traditional' than contemporary.

mary rosenblum

It just means it has a strong fantasy element, magic or ghosts or what have you.

mary rosenblum

Heroic,...features a strong hero theme. Is probably also a S&S piece...

mary rosenblum

Like I said... these subgenres are all shades of the same color. :-)

ltsonya

oh my, so i suppose the only way to really know what a magazine wants is to read it?

mary rosenblum

Actually, ltsonya, that is the ONLY way.

mary rosenblum

If you read the guidelines for Asimov's and Analog they are almost identical.

mary rosenblum

The fiction published in each is VERY different.

mary rosenblum

What Gordon publishes in F & SF is hardly evident from his guidelines!

wingedwarrior24

do you need a pen name if you write different genres?

mary rosenblum

Not unless you don't want the fans of one genre to know that you write in another.

mary rosenblum

I used a pen name when I wrote my mystery series because I got asked to write a cozy series...

mary rosenblum

and I thought my SF readers would be disappointed. So I wanted them to know it was a different 'me'.

mary rosenblum

Now I wish I hadn't. I'm stuck with Mary Freeman in mystery and my SF fans like my mystery just fine. Oh well.

mary rosenblum

BUT...now we get to talk about numbers.

mary rosenblum

Many authors who have had poor sales records in a genre choose a different name when they try a new genre.

mary rosenblum

Your sales figures are in every bookstore's data base for three years.

mary rosenblum

If they are lousy, that can cost you.

mary rosenblum

Say you had lousy sales in Mystery, and you want to try Romance.

mary rosenblum

When the salesman comes to Barnes and Noble and presents your hot new romance book to the buyer....

mary rosenblum

he looks up your name in the data base. Uh oh. they only sold 100 of your mysteries in all their stores. They shipped tons back. "We'll take 100' the buyer says...

mary rosenblum

instead of the 1500 he might have bought.

wingedwarrior24

does a book release mean you have to tour?

mary rosenblum

Not unless I want to spend my own money, winged! Publishers only do tours for the top one or two books of ALL their imprints. That's not me. Would be nice. LOL

mary rosenblum

I'll do more writers conferences than usual in the next year in 07.

megger

Are you coming to the Midwest, Mary?

mary rosenblum

Gosh, I don't know, megger. :-) A lot of the big conferences move from city to city and I haven't looked up the 07 schedule yet.

mary rosenblum

I post my schedule on my website. :-) I usually have it put together in the fall.

mary rosenblum

Any last questions before we run out of Oregon hour?

geezer

How's the contest going?

mary rosenblum

The anthology? I'll be posting it March 1, Tuesday. :-)

ashton

wanted to talk about paragraphing...the do's and don'ts

mary rosenblum

What about 'em ash?

biffy

know about lit. hoax of WinonaRyder/JTLeroy/LauraAlbert?

mary rosenblum

I don't know that one, biffy. Did someone make it up?

geezer

What time? :-)

mary rosenblum

Not sure when I'll get it up, geeze...I'll send an announcement out, don't worry.

ashton

like what all can fit in a paragraph before you switch voice

mary rosenblum

A paragraph usually contains a single topic or focus... and when you move on to another topic or focus, start a new paragraph.

mary rosenblum

And of course you start a new paragraph every time the speaker changes in dialogue.

mary rosenblum

actually, longer paragraphs are better if you're writing a novel!

mary rosenblum

The number of pages matters...too many pages and they have to charge more for your book.

mary rosenblum

Lots of short paragraphs take up many more pages.

mary rosenblum

How's that for a mechanical reason to paragraph?

mary rosenblum

I intentionally use longer paragraphs in novel form.

geezer

That's a good Q. In Freshman comp, etc. they teach to have a topic sentence and three or so points. Then a summary sentence. Is that why English reachers aren't writers?

mary rosenblum

LOL One of the many reasons!

mary rosenblum

Actually, I tutor a very bright young woman ...I have for years...and I long ago taught her to write one way for English papers and another way for other purposes. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

ashton

Hopefully this will make sense.... If a character is talking, say mumbling in his sleep, Can your pov be thinking something in the middle of all this without having to indents and start a new paragraph?

mary rosenblum

Only if your POV is doing the mumbling. If it's another character then, yes, you need to indent just as if your POV was speaking.

mary rosenblum

Otherwise you'll confuse your readers. They'll see those thoughts as belonging to the mumbling sleeper.

mary rosenblum

Do come by Sunday for our casual chat!

mary rosenblum

See you all then!

mary rosenblum

And have a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts

 

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