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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you had a good week.
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours forum.
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you who attended
my interview with Robert Rosenwald, president of Poisoned Pen Press last
night...
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to add a bit here.
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mary rosenblum
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This is one of the small press
publishers that does get attention from the big New York publishers.
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mary rosenblum
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The editors pay attention to
the authors he publishes.
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mary rosenblum
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He has an excellent track
record for picking good writers.
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mary rosenblum
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They are one of the best small
press publishers in all the genres, in terms of how they treat their
authors...
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mary rosenblum
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and how they publish.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about non
human POV tonight...
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mary rosenblum
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because editors get a lot of
it in many genres...and generally they groan.
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mary rosenblum
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Because most of the time it's
badly done.
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mary rosenblum
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If you do it well, it really
will stand out.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about non human
POV. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do
my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, some non human
POV have been very successful...
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mary rosenblum
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look at Brian Jacques Redwall
series.
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mary rosenblum
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And Watership Down.
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wardg
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How can anyone think outside
their species? Wouldn't it really be writing the POV as other people might
think it would be?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that's where imagination
comes in ward.
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mary rosenblum
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Obviously you can't really
know how a dog or raccon thinks unless you're a much better...
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mary rosenblum
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telepath than I am. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But on the other hand...how we
think is determined by how we perceive the world..
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mary rosenblum
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and if you want to give
another species complex, human-like thought, it will be colored by that
specie's perceptions.
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mary rosenblum
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A dog 'sees' with its nose
first, eyes second.
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mary rosenblum
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Eyes are first for us and we
have no sense of smell worth speaking of. :-) Just ask my dogs. They think
I"m 'blind'
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cosmos
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Is it likely that the Poison Pen
Press would have published the first book by Lillian Jackson Braun who
writes the Cat Who series?
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mary rosenblum
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Cosmos, I'm sorry I couldn't
get to your question last night...glad you brought it tonight.
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mary rosenblum
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Hard to say, cosmos, but it's
rather a moot point. What Mr. Rosenwald DID say...
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mary rosenblum
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is that if your book reminds
him strongly of another series, they won't publish it.
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wolf122
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Believe it or not, I actually
use wolves in my writing. Is there anything specific editors roll eyes at?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, wolf there is.
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mary rosenblum
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Humans in furry suits make
editors do more than roll their eyes. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Get REAL familiar with wolf
behavior. There are some very good books out there you can read.
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cosmos
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I guess what I am getting at is
would they publish a cozy set in a small town? It doesn't seem to fit for
them.
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mary rosenblum
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I see what you're getting at.
I think they'd publish it if it worked for them. Clearly they like
historical fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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but just as clearly anything
that is not 'another Agatha clone' is going to get looked at.
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mary rosenblum
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Send it to 'em and see.
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speckledorf
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I think the "humans in
furry suits" gets to readers too. Or at least it does to me...I hate
to read stories that have animals acting clearly in a way they wouldn't.
Unless it is SF of course:--)
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mary rosenblum
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I hate it in SF!
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wardg
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Watership Down rocked; the
rabbits were like primitive little humans with their own mythos and
customs, etc... obviously imaginary but they acted like rabbits and it was
cool.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, and that's the great
example of animal POV...and partly, I'm sure, the reason it was such a hot
success.
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mary rosenblum
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He did create a rabbit
culture. They were not people, their myths and beliefs reflected...
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mary rosenblum
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rabbit behaviors.
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mary rosenblum
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He really did his homework
there.
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mary rosenblum
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And actually, Brian Jacques,
with his very popular Redwall series is just the opposite...
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mary rosenblum
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his animals are people in
furry suits, for the most part, right down to the moles' cockney accents.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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So even though I'll rant 'till
the cows come home about getting animal POV real, obviously you can ignore
me and succeed. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But just because it worked for
Jacques does not mean it will work for you and editors do tend to roll
their eyes.
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speckledorf
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Okay..let me clarify:-) In SF
I'll expect things to be a bit different. I still don't want sheep acting
like wolves...
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mary rosenblum
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Well, any time you want to use
animals as characters, they are not really going to behave entirely like
animals.
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wolf7
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How can you get the animal to
behave like an animal and have readers in the story?
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mary rosenblum
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And that's the reason.
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mary rosenblum
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You trying for some reader
identification if those ARE your characters. We have to care...
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mary rosenblum
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so you''re going to
anthropomorphise them to a certain degree...
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mary rosenblum
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but if you can retain some of
the species traits...
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mary rosenblum
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they will seem much more
'animal like'. .. As with Watership Down.
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wardg
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I read a short story in asimov's
i think, where the aliens were introduced first (some kind of water
creatures on Titan i think) and it was very mysterious at first to figure
out what the h*ll was going on... but it worked really well. is there
really a whole series of related approaches?
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mary rosenblum
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Well of course, in SF, alien
aliens is the big challenge. (I'm trying to remember the story, but must
have missed that one).
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mary rosenblum
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There are a lot of very human
aliens in SF.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about non human
POV. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do
my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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jmr
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So what is t, exactlly that
readers like about a non-human POV - assuming this can be summarized....
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mary rosenblum
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The real challenge, jmr, is to
give the reader a POV that SEEMS different, even though there are enough
human connections that we can empathize.
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mary rosenblum
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Nancy Kress's story 'Dancing
on Air'..which I think won one of the big awards...
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mary rosenblum
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had a dog POV. This was a
first person story, told from the dog...a cybernetically enhanced
dog...POV.
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mary rosenblum
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And she did a great job.
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mary rosenblum
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Smell came first.
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mary rosenblum
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The owner smelled worried.
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mary rosenblum
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The dog licked himself for
comfort...
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mary rosenblum
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One real basic...the dog saw
the world from a viewpoint that was abotu 24 inches from the ground.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of very small animal
characters see things that they'd have to be 6 feet tall to see. :-)
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megger
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I'm drawing a blank here. Does
someone offer a good POV outside of the human or animal world?
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mary rosenblum
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There have been some good
ones.
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mary rosenblum
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I think Scott Card did pretty
well with his hive mind aliens in Enders Game, for example...
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mary rosenblum
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it had a different concept of
one versus many.
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wardg
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so would a wiener dog POV be a
short story or not? lol
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mary rosenblum
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I'm laughing, Ward. :-)
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jmr
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.... without seeming hoaky?
That's the challenge, if it sounds hoaky to me, don't submit - right? :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That is the challenge. :-) But
don't trust yourself, jmr...
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mary rosenblum
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authors are the last person to
be objective about the story. See if it works for a reader.
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curseofthe44
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Mary, what if you are attempting
a story in which the "alien" or "animal" proves to be
human as opposed to what it was thought to be initially?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can do that. That would be
pretty easy to pull off actually...
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mary rosenblum
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if you give it behaviors that
readers will easily misinterpret.
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mary rosenblum
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Even a few details will make a
big difference.
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mary rosenblum
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If your POV's primary sense is
something other than sight...
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mary rosenblum
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that POV will seem very
nonhuman if you follow through with that.
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curseofthe44
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Is that something editors will
frown at? (alien to human)
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mary rosenblum
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Not at all, if you pull it
off. Surprises are good. :-)
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jmr
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What usually goes wrong for the
novice with non-human POV - over doing it in an attempt to show the
Non-human characteristics?
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mary rosenblum
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Other direction ,jmr...
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mary rosenblum
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by page two, you have
completely forgotten that this is an animal...it's like the three bears.
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mary rosenblum
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You have people in furry
suits.
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mary rosenblum
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And editors tend to ask...'why
not people then'?
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mary rosenblum
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But if you can create a
nonhuman POV that seems nonhuman...you will stand out.
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wolf7
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How could you combine human and
animal traits in a non human character? Example-Like a werewolf?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, wolf, maybe when your
POV is in werewolf mode, he thinks and perceives like a canid?
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mary rosenblum
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He perceives the world in
colors of scent, sounds elicit a strong fight/flight response...his
reaction...
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mary rosenblum
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to something that startles him
for example is to bite.
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mary rosenblum
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If you simply paint the world
in shades of scent you'll make him plenty nonhuman to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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He might realize he's changing
as he begins to really notice smells.
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seshat
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Is this only about scifi pov?
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mary rosenblum
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Not at all.
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mary rosenblum
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Nonhuman is used a lot in
childrens books and fantasy, and even some mainstream.
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redraven
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Garfield and Snoopy have been
successful non-human POVs
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, and the 'cartoon' animal
POV has been used a lot.
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mary rosenblum
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Look at Animal Farm.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a flat out satyre on
communism...and the animals aren't intended to seem like real animals.
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wardg
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but those are humans in animal
costumes, aren't they?
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mary rosenblum
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And they were intended to be.
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mary rosenblum
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Where novices run into trouble
is when they want the animal to seem like an animal.
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speckledorf
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Would you say Jack London's White
Fang was a decent animal POV?
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mary rosenblum
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I remember it as being a
strong dog POV, speck. I"m not sure I want to reread it now, with as
much canine behavior knowlege as I have. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I think I'll continue to
remember it fondly.
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cosmos
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I loved Beverly Cleary's Ralph
S. Mouse for children and how the mouse drives his own toy car and sleeps
in a sock or pocket.
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mary rosenblum
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There are some fun ones like
that...where even though the mouse is very human...
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mary rosenblum
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the perspective of something a
few inches high is maintained...
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mary rosenblum
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which gives that character a
nonhuman feel. See? Even something as simple...
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mary rosenblum
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as creating a world as seen by
a mouse, can really work.
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mary rosenblum
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The Borrowers...who were tiny
people...was another very successful childrens series...
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mary rosenblum
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and it came from their very
'nonhuman' world of tiny things and spaces in the cracks of our world.
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jmr
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So, how do you know if you NEED
an NON-human in your story...? You must really need one or need to make a
statement?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, there are several
reasons, jmr.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu are adding the
'exotic'...the world experienced by a tiny human, a turtle, a mouse...looks
very interesting and strange to us giants. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I've never camped under my
stove. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Or you can have a reason to
shift the reader's perception of the world.
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mary rosenblum
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Make people see something
usual with new eyes.
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seshat
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Virginia Woolf's "Kew
Gardens" gives the POV of a snail.
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seshat
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Mrs. Woolf was brilliant at
giving multiple POVs wasn't she?
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mary rosenblum
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That's right, she did. I had
forgotten seshat. Gosh, it's been years since I read her. About time for a
reread, I think. :-)
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redraven
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In Charlotte's Web the pig and
spider had human attributes
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mary rosenblum
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YOu really end up giving human
attributes to your animal or alien characters because... someone already
said it...
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mary rosenblum
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otherwise, they just don't
work for readers.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you can retain a sense
of 'nonhuman POV', it will work very strongly.
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wolf7
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How would you discribe a keen
sense of hearing?
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mary rosenblum
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Your character would hear
things that readers would never be able to, for example.
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mary rosenblum
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And noises we are used to
would be harsh, painful, too loud.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about non human
POV. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do
my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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wardg
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it sounds like you have to look
at what seems to work and pick an approach, then execute it creatively but
true to form?
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mary rosenblum
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That's a good way to put it,
ward.
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mary rosenblum
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Because we're really creating
something that does have human attributes or we wouldn't relate to that
character...
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mary rosenblum
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but on the other hand, it
needs to seem alien.
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wolf122
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Sort of like a wizard accessing
his familiar's senses--the whole world changes from a different perspective
(sound, taste, smell, etc.). . .
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mary rosenblum
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Excellent point.
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mary rosenblum
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T H White did that with his
Once and Future King as I recall,when he has the young Arthur changing into
an owl...
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mary rosenblum
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and eating mice.
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redraven
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It's easy for humans to identify
to some degree with other
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redraven
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mammals, but could a plant be a
POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Could be tough, but fun.
How does a tree that lives 500 years perceive us?
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seshat
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Is it difficult to portray
madness in a POV?
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seshat
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To clarify: Is madness tricky to
portray convincingly?
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for bringing that up,
seshat. Because, in a way...
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mary rosenblum
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the people who are really
outside the norm...
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mary rosenblum
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mentally ill, retarded,
sociopaths, waht have you...
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mary rosenblum
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ARE difficult to portray
convincingly and are rarely rarely used as POV characters.
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mary rosenblum
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If you think about it, most
often they are seen through a POV's eyes.
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jmr
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plant and alien - little shop of
horrors...used both...
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. :-) I've only seen the
play/movie and I don't think the plant was really...
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mary rosenblum
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intended to be awfully
realistic there. :-)
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redraven
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Perhaps because it is
frightening to identify with madness?
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mary rosenblum
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I've seen it done well...gosh,
I can't remember the writer who did it...used a schizophrenic as a POV...
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mary rosenblum
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He did a good job of creating
someone who really perceived a slightly different reality than the rest of
us...
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mary rosenblum
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Not easy to do.
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cosmos
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Isn't it sometimes easier for a
child to learn from an animal POV because an animal is less threatening?
For example, Cleary's Ralph S. Mouse changed and learned to understand
about feelings and boundaries. I'm sure that a little boy who reads this
book identifies with the little boy in the story trying to teach Ralph S.
Mouse lessons that the reader may also need to learn.
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely, cosmos, and I
think that's why you see so much animal pov in children's literature.
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mary rosenblum
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The animals ARE meant to be a
metaphor for people.
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wolf7
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How about SK? He's a master.
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mary rosenblum
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He's really good at creating
twisted POV. :-)
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wardg
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isn't animal POV totally
different for kids than for adults?
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mary rosenblum
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In the majority of children's
fiction I've read over the years, I would say that animals are mostly
people-metaphors. BUT...
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mary rosenblum
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I have read some very good
books for kids with animal POVs where the animal acts like an animal.
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly these were books meant
to teach kids about the species's behavior.
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mary rosenblum
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And the animal was humanized
as it went about its business. Some were very good.
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cosmos
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I think that the POV of the
trees in Lord of the Rings was brilliant and may be responsible for more
people being sympathetic to environmental issues.
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mary rosenblum
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He did a good job with the Ent
POV, definitely, cosmos.
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mary rosenblum
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They had a different
perspective on time and the relative importance of events.
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mary rosenblum
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Even the physical restrictions
of the nonhuman body make a difference.
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mary rosenblum
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I did one or two SF stories
with a genetically engineered centaur.
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mary rosenblum
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Had to do a lot of
choreography to get it right...how something that big gets around in human
spaces.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a dog POV, spend some
time on the floor on your hands and knees.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a different world down
there.
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wardg
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and where did they sit?
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mary rosenblum
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LOL, yep ward. You really
don't sit. Joints don't work that way very well. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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ACtually it took a LOT of
careful thought to get it right.
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mary rosenblum
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Non human POV offers you the
potential of 'fresh and new'...
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mary rosenblum
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because it's rare.
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mary rosenblum
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And you have to make it good,
because editors are weary of it...they get mostly bad.
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mary rosenblum
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It is a huge stereotype in
childrens lit.
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wardg
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so don't have garfield rely on
his smell and hearing, just let him eat lasagna and kick Odie... and don't
have your white wolf scream "Yesss..." and do the happy dance...?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if you're going to
create a cartoon or an Animal Farm, you create the cartoon or the people
metaphor.
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mary rosenblum
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But don't use a people
metaphor if your story is supposed to portray the animal or nonhuman
character realistically.
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mary rosenblum
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And it has a ton of potential.
Can you create an elf who is not a human?
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mary rosenblum
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There is a fantasy writer who
has a character who was raised by trolls...
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mary rosenblum
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he is human, but he grew up
with a troll's perspective.
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mary rosenblum
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And it is not human. He does
it very well.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll have to send you
something of his, speck.
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wardg
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that elf will be in my second
novel, mary lol
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mary rosenblum
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Glad to hear it, ward! I was
hoping someone would do it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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He does not THINK like a
person.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is the really tough
part.
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cosmos
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Please send me info about the
writer who writes about trolls too. I'm working on a troll story.
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mary rosenblum
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I should have thought of him
as an example and sorted through my F&SF here to find his name.
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wolf7
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What type of prospective would
an elf have of a human? They live for so long. Would they see us as some
type of dog, that has a short life span?
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mary rosenblum
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That's EXACTLY what I mean,
wolf. Bravo.
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mary rosenblum
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And our troll-changeling for
example...
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mary rosenblum
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people are meat. You don't see
them as a person any more than a cow is a person.
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mary rosenblum
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This writer has been doing a
good job of having his troll-changeling struggle to learn 'human'
behaviors.
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mary rosenblum
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And he's selling like
gangbusters...because he is doing this unique POV well.
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mary rosenblum
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It's rare that writers get
into a nonhuman POV...most of the time they are portrayed from the
outside..
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mary rosenblum
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because they are difficult to
do.
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speckledorf
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Charles Colman Findlay---The
Prodigal Troll:--)
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...
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mary rosenblum
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Just found it in F &SF>
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mary rosenblum
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He has a book out, and does a
lot of short stories featuring Maggot, his troll-changeling.
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mary rosenblum
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He's in the June issue.
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mary rosenblum
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Charles Coleman Finlay
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wardg
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are short stories like that just
ads for the books?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, they sure can work that
way, ward...
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mary rosenblum
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I use 'em as character
studies, myself...
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mary rosenblum
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most of my novels derive from
characters who have already appeared in short stories.
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wardg
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i know this is off topic but is
that a good approach to sell a novel?
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mary rosenblum
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It's a great appraoch ward.
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mary rosenblum
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I sold my first novel because
I had been getting a lot of critical attention for my 'dryland stories'...
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mary rosenblum
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and the novel was set in that
universe and used some characters from the stories.
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mary rosenblum
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If you get attention for your
short fiction it makes you stand out from the slush, that's for sure.
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shoutjoy
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What does Representative Clips
mean?
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mary rosenblum
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It means clips of something
similar to what you plan to submit, shout.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're querying a travel
mag, they want clips of travel articles you have written, not clips of
fiction stories or cooking articles.
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shoutjoy
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what if it is your first
submission ever?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can do one of two things,
shout...
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mary rosenblum
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you can send 'em a writing
sample, or you can send 'em the entire article and tell them that you're
using it as your writing sample.
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mary rosenblum
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I had a student who did that
when she was breaking in.
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mary rosenblum
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She kept track for me. About
half the time, they just rejected her flat, about half the time, they
looked at the article.
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shoutjoy
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ok (shaking knees) I am so
chicken to submit :o)
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mary rosenblum
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Why?
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mary rosenblum
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You'll probably get a
rejection, but you might not. Wouldn't that be cool?
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mary rosenblum
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You're going to get plenty of
rejections in your writing life. I still get 'em...everybody does.
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mary rosenblum
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People dont' always want what
you have to offer, that's all.
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mary rosenblum
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But you don't sell if you
don't submit! THAT is an inviolable law. LOL
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shoutjoy
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I don't think I'm good enough I
guess
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mary rosenblum
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Nobody ever does.
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mary rosenblum
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Just keep writing and you'll
get beter.
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shoutjoy
|
Doing research, how do you keep
from plaguerizing?
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mary rosenblum
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Ha, I can't spell it either.
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mary rosenblum
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Just don't use someone else's
words, that's all.
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mary rosenblum
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And editors want original
research...they don't want research that a reader can do online.
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mary rosenblum
|
Or in the library.
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wolf7
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How do you know if you have a
block buster? Like JK Rowling?
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mary rosenblum
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Sweetheart NOBODY knows they
have a blockbuster until they sell that first 100,000 copies.
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mary rosenblum
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THEN they know. :-)
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shoutjoy
|
so if you don't do it online or
library, where does it come?
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mary rosenblum
|
Interviews with people who
know what you need to find out, shout.
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mary rosenblum
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People love to be interviewed.
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mary rosenblum
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Visits to places.
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mary rosenblum
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You have to go do it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
You can interview online or by
phone.
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wardg
|
the wiener dog looked up at the
ham sandwich on the coffee table. must have it. he leapt as if his life
depended on it. he nipped the edge of the plate and the treasure fell to
the floor... so it is for first submissions...
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mary rosenblum
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There you go! :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Go for that sandwich!
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shoutjoy
|
but if it is about a plant,
can't interview that
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mary rosenblum
|
Ah, but you can interview a
master gardner, a botanist, your local nursery owner though.
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redraven
|
LOL, shoutjoy
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mary rosenblum
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And if you interview the plant
and it talks to you...that's an even bigger story. :-)
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shoutjoy
|
well I was writing "in 1st
person", plant speaking.
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wolf7
|
you can show the pasage of time
and the other trees.
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redraven
|
Though an imaginary interview
with a plant could be good!
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mary rosenblum
|
It could be. :-)
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shoutjoy
|
my tutor likes it
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mary rosenblum
|
Good. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
|
Now you can all go write
interesting and unusual nonhuman POV. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And do read Finlay's troll
stories. He does a nice job.
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wolf7
|
How is the weather in Oregon?
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mary rosenblum
|
Sunny. Finally.
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mary rosenblum
|
I'm going to post the
transcript in the usual place...
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mary rosenblum
|
Writing Craft, Forum
Transcripts...
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mary rosenblum
|
and then go outside. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
It has been hot today, cooling
off a bit now.
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mary rosenblum
|
Do join us for our Sunday open
chat...
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mary rosenblum
|
same time, same place..
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mary rosenblum
|
we just get together to talk
about whatever.
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redraven
|
Freda the fern waves her fronds
goodbye
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mary rosenblum
|
-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Good night all!
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mary rosenblum
|
See you on Sunday.
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mary rosenblum
|
Good night!
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