Forum Transcripts

Non-Human Point of View 7/15/05

Event start time:

Fri Jul 15 19:05:45 2005

Event end time:

Fri Jul 15 20:31:55 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a good week.

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours forum.

mary rosenblum

For those of you who attended my interview with Robert Rosenwald, president of Poisoned Pen Press last night...

mary rosenblum

I wanted to add a bit here.

mary rosenblum

This is one of the small press publishers that does get attention from the big New York publishers.

mary rosenblum

The editors pay attention to the authors he publishes.

mary rosenblum

He has an excellent track record for picking good writers.

mary rosenblum

They are one of the best small press publishers in all the genres, in terms of how they treat their authors...

mary rosenblum

and how they publish.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about non human POV tonight...

mary rosenblum

because editors get a lot of it in many genres...and generally they groan.

mary rosenblum

Because most of the time it's badly done.

mary rosenblum

If you do it well, it really will stand out.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about non human POV. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

And of course, some non human POV have been very successful...

mary rosenblum

look at Brian Jacques Redwall series.

mary rosenblum

And Watership Down.

wardg

How can anyone think outside their species? Wouldn't it really be writing the POV as other people might think it would be?

mary rosenblum

Well, that's where imagination comes in ward.

mary rosenblum

Obviously you can't really know how a dog or raccon thinks unless you're a much better...

mary rosenblum

telepath than I am. :-)

mary rosenblum

But on the other hand...how we think is determined by how we perceive the world..

mary rosenblum

and if you want to give another species complex, human-like thought, it will be colored by that specie's perceptions.

mary rosenblum

A dog 'sees' with its nose first, eyes second.

mary rosenblum

Eyes are first for us and we have no sense of smell worth speaking of. :-) Just ask my dogs. They think I"m 'blind'

cosmos

Is it likely that the Poison Pen Press would have published the first book by Lillian Jackson Braun who writes the Cat Who series?

mary rosenblum

Cosmos, I'm sorry I couldn't get to your question last night...glad you brought it tonight.

mary rosenblum

Hard to say, cosmos, but it's rather a moot point. What Mr. Rosenwald DID say...

mary rosenblum

is that if your book reminds him strongly of another series, they won't publish it.

wolf122

Believe it or not, I actually use wolves in my writing. Is there anything specific editors roll eyes at?

mary rosenblum

Yes, wolf there is.

mary rosenblum

Humans in furry suits make editors do more than roll their eyes. :-)

mary rosenblum

Get REAL familiar with wolf behavior. There are some very good books out there you can read.

cosmos

I guess what I am getting at is would they publish a cozy set in a small town? It doesn't seem to fit for them.

mary rosenblum

I see what you're getting at. I think they'd publish it if it worked for them. Clearly they like historical fiction...

mary rosenblum

but just as clearly anything that is not 'another Agatha clone' is going to get looked at.

mary rosenblum

Send it to 'em and see.

speckledorf

I think the "humans in furry suits" gets to readers too. Or at least it does to me...I hate to read stories that have animals acting clearly in a way they wouldn't. Unless it is SF of course:--)

mary rosenblum

I hate it in SF!

wardg

Watership Down rocked; the rabbits were like primitive little humans with their own mythos and customs, etc... obviously imaginary but they acted like rabbits and it was cool.

mary rosenblum

Yes, and that's the great example of animal POV...and partly, I'm sure, the reason it was such a hot success.

mary rosenblum

He did create a rabbit culture. They were not people, their myths and beliefs reflected...

mary rosenblum

rabbit behaviors.

mary rosenblum

He really did his homework there.

mary rosenblum

And actually, Brian Jacques, with his very popular Redwall series is just the opposite...

mary rosenblum

his animals are people in furry suits, for the most part, right down to the moles' cockney accents. :-)

mary rosenblum

So even though I'll rant 'till the cows come home about getting animal POV real, obviously you can ignore me and succeed. :-)

mary rosenblum

But just because it worked for Jacques does not mean it will work for you and editors do tend to roll their eyes.

speckledorf

Okay..let me clarify:-) In SF I'll expect things to be a bit different. I still don't want sheep acting like wolves...

mary rosenblum

Well, any time you want to use animals as characters, they are not really going to behave entirely like animals.

wolf7

How can you get the animal to behave like an animal and have readers in the story?

mary rosenblum

And that's the reason.

mary rosenblum

You trying for some reader identification if those ARE your characters. We have to care...

mary rosenblum

so you''re going to anthropomorphise them to a certain degree...

mary rosenblum

but if you can retain some of the species traits...

mary rosenblum

they will seem much more 'animal like'. .. As with Watership Down.

wardg

I read a short story in asimov's i think, where the aliens were introduced first (some kind of water creatures on Titan i think) and it was very mysterious at first to figure out what the h*ll was going on... but it worked really well. is there really a whole series of related approaches?

mary rosenblum

Well of course, in SF, alien aliens is the big challenge. (I'm trying to remember the story, but must have missed that one).

mary rosenblum

There are a lot of very human aliens in SF.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about non human POV. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

jmr

So what is t, exactlly that readers like about a non-human POV - assuming this can be summarized....

mary rosenblum

The real challenge, jmr, is to give the reader a POV that SEEMS different, even though there are enough human connections that we can empathize.

mary rosenblum

Nancy Kress's story 'Dancing on Air'..which I think won one of the big awards...

mary rosenblum

had a dog POV. This was a first person story, told from the dog...a cybernetically enhanced dog...POV.

mary rosenblum

And she did a great job.

mary rosenblum

Smell came first.

mary rosenblum

The owner smelled worried.

mary rosenblum

The dog licked himself for comfort...

mary rosenblum

One real basic...the dog saw the world from a viewpoint that was abotu 24 inches from the ground.

mary rosenblum

A lot of very small animal characters see things that they'd have to be 6 feet tall to see. :-)

megger

I'm drawing a blank here. Does someone offer a good POV outside of the human or animal world?

mary rosenblum

There have been some good ones.

mary rosenblum

I think Scott Card did pretty well with his hive mind aliens in Enders Game, for example...

mary rosenblum

it had a different concept of one versus many.

wardg

so would a wiener dog POV be a short story or not? lol

mary rosenblum

I'm laughing, Ward. :-)

jmr

.... without seeming hoaky? That's the challenge, if it sounds hoaky to me, don't submit - right? :-)

mary rosenblum

That is the challenge. :-) But don't trust yourself, jmr...

mary rosenblum

authors are the last person to be objective about the story. See if it works for a reader.

curseofthe44

Mary, what if you are attempting a story in which the "alien" or "animal" proves to be human as opposed to what it was thought to be initially?

mary rosenblum

YOu can do that. That would be pretty easy to pull off actually...

mary rosenblum

if you give it behaviors that readers will easily misinterpret.

mary rosenblum

Even a few details will make a big difference.

mary rosenblum

If your POV's primary sense is something other than sight...

mary rosenblum

that POV will seem very nonhuman if you follow through with that.

curseofthe44

Is that something editors will frown at? (alien to human)

mary rosenblum

Not at all, if you pull it off. Surprises are good. :-)

jmr

What usually goes wrong for the novice with non-human POV - over doing it in an attempt to show the Non-human characteristics?

mary rosenblum

Other direction ,jmr...

mary rosenblum

by page two, you have completely forgotten that this is an animal...it's like the three bears.

mary rosenblum

You have people in furry suits.

mary rosenblum

And editors tend to ask...'why not people then'?

mary rosenblum

But if you can create a nonhuman POV that seems nonhuman...you will stand out.

wolf7

How could you combine human and animal traits in a non human character? Example-Like a werewolf?

mary rosenblum

Well, wolf, maybe when your POV is in werewolf mode, he thinks and perceives like a canid?

mary rosenblum

He perceives the world in colors of scent, sounds elicit a strong fight/flight response...his reaction...

mary rosenblum

to something that startles him for example is to bite.

mary rosenblum

If you simply paint the world in shades of scent you'll make him plenty nonhuman to readers.

mary rosenblum

He might realize he's changing as he begins to really notice smells.

seshat

Is this only about scifi pov?

mary rosenblum

Not at all.

mary rosenblum

Nonhuman is used a lot in childrens books and fantasy, and even some mainstream.

redraven

Garfield and Snoopy have been successful non-human POVs

mary rosenblum

Yep, and the 'cartoon' animal POV has been used a lot.

mary rosenblum

Look at Animal Farm.

mary rosenblum

It's a flat out satyre on communism...and the animals aren't intended to seem like real animals.

wardg

but those are humans in animal costumes, aren't they?

mary rosenblum

And they were intended to be.

mary rosenblum

Where novices run into trouble is when they want the animal to seem like an animal.

speckledorf

Would you say Jack London's White Fang was a decent animal POV?

mary rosenblum

I remember it as being a strong dog POV, speck. I"m not sure I want to reread it now, with as much canine behavior knowlege as I have. :-)

mary rosenblum

I think I'll continue to remember it fondly.

cosmos

I loved Beverly Cleary's Ralph S. Mouse for children and how the mouse drives his own toy car and sleeps in a sock or pocket.

mary rosenblum

There are some fun ones like that...where even though the mouse is very human...

mary rosenblum

the perspective of something a few inches high is maintained...

mary rosenblum

which gives that character a nonhuman feel. See? Even something as simple...

mary rosenblum

as creating a world as seen by a mouse, can really work.

mary rosenblum

The Borrowers...who were tiny people...was another very successful childrens series...

mary rosenblum

and it came from their very 'nonhuman' world of tiny things and spaces in the cracks of our world.

jmr

So, how do you know if you NEED an NON-human in your story...? You must really need one or need to make a statement?

mary rosenblum

Well, there are several reasons, jmr.

mary rosenblum

YOu are adding the 'exotic'...the world experienced by a tiny human, a turtle, a mouse...looks very interesting and strange to us giants. :-)

mary rosenblum

I've never camped under my stove. :-)

mary rosenblum

Or you can have a reason to shift the reader's perception of the world.

mary rosenblum

Make people see something usual with new eyes.

seshat

Virginia Woolf's "Kew Gardens" gives the POV of a snail.

seshat

Mrs. Woolf was brilliant at giving multiple POVs wasn't she?

mary rosenblum

That's right, she did. I had forgotten seshat. Gosh, it's been years since I read her. About time for a reread, I think. :-)

redraven

In Charlotte's Web the pig and spider had human attributes

mary rosenblum

YOu really end up giving human attributes to your animal or alien characters because... someone already said it...

mary rosenblum

otherwise, they just don't work for readers.

mary rosenblum

But if you can retain a sense of 'nonhuman POV', it will work very strongly.

wolf7

How would you discribe a keen sense of hearing?

mary rosenblum

Your character would hear things that readers would never be able to, for example.

mary rosenblum

And noises we are used to would be harsh, painful, too loud.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about non human POV. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

wardg

it sounds like you have to look at what seems to work and pick an approach, then execute it creatively but true to form?

mary rosenblum

That's a good way to put it, ward.

mary rosenblum

Because we're really creating something that does have human attributes or we wouldn't relate to that character...

mary rosenblum

but on the other hand, it needs to seem alien.

wolf122

Sort of like a wizard accessing his familiar's senses--the whole world changes from a different perspective (sound, taste, smell, etc.). . .

mary rosenblum

Excellent point.

mary rosenblum

T H White did that with his Once and Future King as I recall,when he has the young Arthur changing into an owl...

mary rosenblum

and eating mice.

redraven

It's easy for humans to identify to some degree with other

redraven

mammals, but could a plant be a POV?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Could be tough, but fun. How does a tree that lives 500 years perceive us?

seshat

Is it difficult to portray madness in a POV?

seshat

To clarify: Is madness tricky to portray convincingly?

mary rosenblum

Thanks for bringing that up, seshat. Because, in a way...

mary rosenblum

the people who are really outside the norm...

mary rosenblum

mentally ill, retarded, sociopaths, waht have you...

mary rosenblum

ARE difficult to portray convincingly and are rarely rarely used as POV characters.

mary rosenblum

If you think about it, most often they are seen through a POV's eyes.

jmr

plant and alien - little shop of horrors...used both...

mary rosenblum

Yep. :-) I've only seen the play/movie and I don't think the plant was really...

mary rosenblum

intended to be awfully realistic there. :-)

redraven

Perhaps because it is frightening to identify with madness?

mary rosenblum

I've seen it done well...gosh, I can't remember the writer who did it...used a schizophrenic as a POV...

mary rosenblum

He did a good job of creating someone who really perceived a slightly different reality than the rest of us...

mary rosenblum

Not easy to do.

cosmos

Isn't it sometimes easier for a child to learn from an animal POV because an animal is less threatening? For example, Cleary's Ralph S. Mouse changed and learned to understand about feelings and boundaries. I'm sure that a little boy who reads this book identifies with the little boy in the story trying to teach Ralph S. Mouse lessons that the reader may also need to learn.

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, cosmos, and I think that's why you see so much animal pov in children's literature.

mary rosenblum

The animals ARE meant to be a metaphor for people.

wolf7

How about SK? He's a master.

mary rosenblum

He's really good at creating twisted POV. :-)

wardg

isn't animal POV totally different for kids than for adults?

mary rosenblum

In the majority of children's fiction I've read over the years, I would say that animals are mostly people-metaphors. BUT...

mary rosenblum

I have read some very good books for kids with animal POVs where the animal acts like an animal.

mary rosenblum

Mostly these were books meant to teach kids about the species's behavior.

mary rosenblum

And the animal was humanized as it went about its business. Some were very good.

cosmos

I think that the POV of the trees in Lord of the Rings was brilliant and may be responsible for more people being sympathetic to environmental issues.

mary rosenblum

He did a good job with the Ent POV, definitely, cosmos.

mary rosenblum

They had a different perspective on time and the relative importance of events.

mary rosenblum

Even the physical restrictions of the nonhuman body make a difference.

mary rosenblum

I did one or two SF stories with a genetically engineered centaur.

mary rosenblum

Had to do a lot of choreography to get it right...how something that big gets around in human spaces.

mary rosenblum

If you have a dog POV, spend some time on the floor on your hands and knees.

mary rosenblum

It's a different world down there.

wardg

and where did they sit?

mary rosenblum

LOL, yep ward. You really don't sit. Joints don't work that way very well. :-)

mary rosenblum

ACtually it took a LOT of careful thought to get it right.

mary rosenblum

Non human POV offers you the potential of 'fresh and new'...

mary rosenblum

because it's rare.

mary rosenblum

And you have to make it good, because editors are weary of it...they get mostly bad.

mary rosenblum

It is a huge stereotype in childrens lit.

wardg

so don't have garfield rely on his smell and hearing, just let him eat lasagna and kick Odie... and don't have your white wolf scream "Yesss..." and do the happy dance...?

mary rosenblum

Well, if you're going to create a cartoon or an Animal Farm, you create the cartoon or the people metaphor.

mary rosenblum

But don't use a people metaphor if your story is supposed to portray the animal or nonhuman character realistically.

mary rosenblum

And it has a ton of potential. Can you create an elf who is not a human?

mary rosenblum

There is a fantasy writer who has a character who was raised by trolls...

mary rosenblum

he is human, but he grew up with a troll's perspective.

mary rosenblum

And it is not human. He does it very well.

mary rosenblum

I'll have to send you something of his, speck.

wardg

that elf will be in my second novel, mary lol

mary rosenblum

Glad to hear it, ward! I was hoping someone would do it. :-)

mary rosenblum

He does not THINK like a person.

mary rosenblum

And that is the really tough part.

cosmos

Please send me info about the writer who writes about trolls too. I'm working on a troll story.

mary rosenblum

I should have thought of him as an example and sorted through my F&SF here to find his name.

wolf7

What type of prospective would an elf have of a human? They live for so long. Would they see us as some type of dog, that has a short life span?

mary rosenblum

That's EXACTLY what I mean, wolf. Bravo.

mary rosenblum

And our troll-changeling for example...

mary rosenblum

people are meat. You don't see them as a person any more than a cow is a person.

mary rosenblum

This writer has been doing a good job of having his troll-changeling struggle to learn 'human' behaviors.

mary rosenblum

And he's selling like gangbusters...because he is doing this unique POV well.

mary rosenblum

It's rare that writers get into a nonhuman POV...most of the time they are portrayed from the outside..

mary rosenblum

because they are difficult to do.

speckledorf

Charles Colman Findlay---The Prodigal Troll:--)

mary rosenblum

Yep...

mary rosenblum

Just found it in F &SF>

mary rosenblum

He has a book out, and does a lot of short stories featuring Maggot, his troll-changeling.

mary rosenblum

He's in the June issue.

mary rosenblum

Charles Coleman Finlay

wardg

are short stories like that just ads for the books?

mary rosenblum

Well, they sure can work that way, ward...

mary rosenblum

I use 'em as character studies, myself...

mary rosenblum

most of my novels derive from characters who have already appeared in short stories.

wardg

i know this is off topic but is that a good approach to sell a novel?

mary rosenblum

It's a great appraoch ward.

mary rosenblum

I sold my first novel because I had been getting a lot of critical attention for my 'dryland stories'...

mary rosenblum

and the novel was set in that universe and used some characters from the stories.

mary rosenblum

If you get attention for your short fiction it makes you stand out from the slush, that's for sure.

shoutjoy

What does Representative Clips mean?

mary rosenblum

It means clips of something similar to what you plan to submit, shout.

mary rosenblum

If you're querying a travel mag, they want clips of travel articles you have written, not clips of fiction stories or cooking articles.

shoutjoy

what if it is your first submission ever?

mary rosenblum

YOu can do one of two things, shout...

mary rosenblum

you can send 'em a writing sample, or you can send 'em the entire article and tell them that you're using it as your writing sample.

mary rosenblum

I had a student who did that when she was breaking in.

mary rosenblum

She kept track for me. About half the time, they just rejected her flat, about half the time, they looked at the article.

shoutjoy

ok (shaking knees) I am so chicken to submit :o)

mary rosenblum

Why?

mary rosenblum

You'll probably get a rejection, but you might not. Wouldn't that be cool?

mary rosenblum

You're going to get plenty of rejections in your writing life. I still get 'em...everybody does.

mary rosenblum

People dont' always want what you have to offer, that's all.

mary rosenblum

But you don't sell if you don't submit! THAT is an inviolable law. LOL

shoutjoy

I don't think I'm good enough I guess

mary rosenblum

Nobody ever does.

mary rosenblum

Just keep writing and you'll get beter.

shoutjoy

Doing research, how do you keep from plaguerizing?

mary rosenblum

Ha, I can't spell it either.

mary rosenblum

Just don't use someone else's words, that's all.

mary rosenblum

And editors want original research...they don't want research that a reader can do online.

mary rosenblum

Or in the library.

wolf7

How do you know if you have a block buster? Like JK Rowling?

mary rosenblum

Sweetheart NOBODY knows they have a blockbuster until they sell that first 100,000 copies.

mary rosenblum

THEN they know. :-)

shoutjoy

so if you don't do it online or library, where does it come?

mary rosenblum

Interviews with people who know what you need to find out, shout.

mary rosenblum

People love to be interviewed.

mary rosenblum

Visits to places.

mary rosenblum

You have to go do it. :-)

mary rosenblum

You can interview online or by phone.

wardg

the wiener dog looked up at the ham sandwich on the coffee table. must have it. he leapt as if his life depended on it. he nipped the edge of the plate and the treasure fell to the floor... so it is for first submissions...

mary rosenblum

There you go! :-)

mary rosenblum

Go for that sandwich!

shoutjoy

but if it is about a plant, can't interview that

mary rosenblum

Ah, but you can interview a master gardner, a botanist, your local nursery owner though.

redraven

LOL, shoutjoy

mary rosenblum

And if you interview the plant and it talks to you...that's an even bigger story. :-)

shoutjoy

well I was writing "in 1st person", plant speaking.

wolf7

you can show the pasage of time and the other trees.

redraven

Though an imaginary interview with a plant could be good!

mary rosenblum

It could be. :-)

shoutjoy

my tutor likes it

mary rosenblum

Good. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

Now you can all go write interesting and unusual nonhuman POV. :-)

mary rosenblum

And do read Finlay's troll stories. He does a nice job.

wolf7

How is the weather in Oregon?

mary rosenblum

Sunny. Finally.

mary rosenblum

I'm going to post the transcript in the usual place...

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft, Forum Transcripts...

mary rosenblum

and then go outside. :-)

mary rosenblum

It has been hot today, cooling off a bit now.

mary rosenblum

Do join us for our Sunday open chat...

mary rosenblum

same time, same place..

mary rosenblum

we just get together to talk about whatever.

redraven

Freda the fern waves her fronds goodbye

mary rosenblum

-)

mary rosenblum

Good night all!

mary rosenblum

See you on Sunday.

mary rosenblum

Good night!

 

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