Forum Transcripts

Newbie Mistakes and How To Avoid Them 7/2/04

Event start time:

Fri Jul 02 19:02:43 2004

Event end time:

Fri Jul 02 20:33:52 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I hope you've all had a good week!

mary rosenblum

For those of you with a romantic bent, I posted a new short Romance market on the New Market Updates area:

mary rosenblum

Wax Romantic.

mary rosenblum

They don't pay a lot, although they say they hope to, but there are very few markets for short romance.

mary rosenblum

Don't forget that next Thursday's speaker is Patrick Swenson..

mary rosenblum

publisher (Fairwood Press) and editor (Talebones Magazine). He was a great guest last time, and if you missed...

mary rosenblum

his first appearance here, do try to make this one.

mary rosenblum

He'll be talking about small press, and can answer any questions you have about publishing with small press publishers.

patchworkcat

Mary, I'd like to say a word of warning to everyone. I have just finished formatting my hard drive for the 4th time in as many days. I lost over 50% of my research for an article I've been working on. Please remind everyone to back up their work on removeable disks or at least print hard copies of everything.

mary rosenblum

Ouch, patchwork, that is a very hard lesson to learn!

mary rosenblum

Yes, obsessive backing up on some removable media is very very important.

mary rosenblum

Hard drives die. Viruses compromise files.

mary rosenblum

When you are done working for the day, just save your files to a 3.5 disk if nothing else.

patchworkcat

At least I had most of my work backed up. It was just the most recent stuff that I lost.

tkat_2

I learned that lesson too the same way patchwork

mary rosenblum

Most of us do, alas.

mary rosenblum

AND...I just posted a very nice 'how to' by Gary Kearney on how to back up for those who aren't sure.

mary rosenblum

He includes his usual pictures of the actual computer screen, so you don't have to translate verbal instructions.

mary rosenblum

Backup article

mary rosenblum

Here's the link to the article for you.

patchworkcat

I'm obsessive about hitting the Save button every few sentences when I write, but had been lax about backing up the entire file to a CD.

mary rosenblum

A tip for you folks with newer computers and CD burners. You can save your novel chapters in a single file folder and save that folder periodically to a CD.

mary rosenblum

It's fast. Make it a regular chore for a particular day of the week...but back up recent work every time you create it.

mary rosenblum

Floppy disks are cheap.

rupbert

My first health column was out yesterday-To Your Health")

mary rosenblum

Good for you, rupbert!

mary rosenblum

Is To Your Healt the name of the magazine or the article?

coway

I moofed, did you say Patrick Swenson will be here next week?

mary rosenblum

Yes, next Thursday. To talk about Small Press publishing.

mary rosenblum

Bring your questions.

rupbert

The name of the column in a local mag

mary rosenblum

What magazine, rupbert? One we can find?

rupbert

The article was on natural remedies for the summer

mary rosenblum

Very cool!

rupbert

My local mag in North Kingstown, RI. I can send you a copy

mary rosenblum

I'd love to have a copy. :-) Thanks!

mary rosenblum

Okay, we should get to the topic here. :-)

mary rosenblum

Which is how to avoid giving away the fact that you are a new writer...and is that really so awful?

mary rosenblum

There is sort of a feeling that if an editor even guesses that you're a new, unpublished writer you'll get rejected...

mary rosenblum

that writing is a closed shop, and you need the secret handshake to get through the door.

mary rosenblum

That is far, far from the truth.

mary rosenblum

Editors really aren't the ogre gatekeepers we all think they are when we're starting out.

mary rosenblum

Their purpose is not to keep newcomers out of their magazines and make life miserable for writers whenever possible.. :-)

mary rosenblum

They actually have the same feelings of 'my baby' about their magazine/anthology/book that we do as we write it.

mary rosenblum

And they love it when one of 'their' writers, the one they gave a break to, gets big.

mary rosenblum

Every editor wants to discover the next Stephen King. :-)

mary rosenblum

In nonfiction, every editor wants the writer who can handle any topic with a single phone call, and turn in a perfect ms before the deadline.

mary rosenblum

What this means is...if you write a powerful story, the editor could care less if you have ever sold or have three arms and green skin.

mary rosenblum

Or if you can turn in that perfectly slanted and clean article at the drop of a hat, that editor wants you to write for the mag forever.

mary rosenblum

There is absolutely nothing wront with being a new and unpublished writer...

mary rosenblum

except....

mary rosenblum

(You knew that was coming, didn't you?)...

mary rosenblum

your name will not sell one issue of the magazine. Period.

mary rosenblum

Now this is where fiction and nonfiction diverge, so I'll handle 'em separately.

mary rosenblum

Let's start with nonfic first.

mary rosenblum

Here, the writer's name rarely sells the article.

mary rosenblum

You read an article on Taos in Sunset Magazine and you enjoy it...how many of you notice who write it?

mary rosenblum

It's not your name recognition that matters to the nonfic editor...it is your ability and reliability.

mary rosenblum

So if you have no clips, Ms Editor is taking a chance that the day after the article is due, when she calls you in fury...

mary rosenblum

you tell her, gee, you couldn't get the interview you promised, so no article.

mary rosenblum

But the article was mentioned in last month's issue, and the space is already reserved in the layout, and how she has 24 hours to find something to fill that space with befiore the magazine goes to production..

mary rosenblum

and since the articles were carefully chosen to compliment each other, she now has a jangling note that doesn't fit, and she wants to KILL you.

mary rosenblum

This is why nonfic editors are wary of novice writers.

mary rosenblum

Now that does not mean that you can't sell that perfect slant that perfect topic that interview that nobody else can get. You certainly can and you can sell it to Time Magazine if it's what they want.

mary rosenblum

But say your article ISN"T perfect, but is merely a good topic and slant.

mary rosenblum

The editor looks at it. Well, if she was sure you could deliver, yeah, she could use it in the November issue.

mary rosenblum

But you're unpublished, and it's a big article and maybe she won't risk it.

mary rosenblum

BUT..

mary rosenblum

if that article is formatted professionally, your query is professional and clearly you know what you are doing...

mary rosenblum

she might just take a chance if it's something that will make that issue really good.

mary rosenblum

If you're sloppy with your typos, your formatting isn't professional, and your query letter is two pages long...

mary rosenblum

she figures you DON'T know what you are doing and probably will mess up.

mary rosenblum

Nope. Can't take the chance. Next query letter....

mary rosenblum

That is why you work very hard at appearing professional.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

we're talking about 'newbie' mistakes tonight, and why you want to appear professional when you submit.

mary rosenblum

Okay, what about the fiction editor?

mary rosenblum

Here, the story sells itself.

mary rosenblum

If the story knocks the editor's socks off, he won't care if you've sent it in printed by a dot matrix printer. (Well, he WILL care and tell you to buy a new printer with the check, but he'll still take it).

mary rosenblum

Yellow crayon won't make it, but you can get away with just about any other no-no. :-)

mary rosenblum

But okay, this is NOT the blockbuster story. It's a good story, the first paragraph hooks the editor so he reads on.

mary rosenblum

He likes it. He could publish it. But you know, it's very similar to that other story on his desk right now.

mary rosenblum

And that one is by a writer who has sold one story to a no-pay small press magazine. Not very impressive credentials, but he has sold something.

mary rosenblum

And you didn't say anything in your cover letter about sales. Maybe you have, maybe not. But the margins are only 1/2 inch, it's typed in an awful Gothic font, full of italic, and the author clearly has no idea...

mary rosenblum

what a manuscript is supposed to look like. The title is in some fancy, loopy font, and just cleaning up the formatting mistakes will take an hour right there.

mary rosenblum

It is obvious that this person either has not sold anything or is going to be so contentious and hard to work with that it's not worth it. The other story is just as good.

mary rosenblum

Rejection.

mary rosenblum

The inattention to professional details tells the editor that this is an unpublished writer, and since the similar story will at least have a little name recognition, you lose out to that story.

mary rosenblum

And that is the 'why' of acting professional.

mary rosenblum

It doesn't matter if your piece is perfect.

mary rosenblum

But how often are our pieces perfect?

rupbert

How many clips is enough to show a national mag?

mary rosenblum

One if it's to another national magazine, rupbert. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you have amassesd several published clips, mention two or three from the largest circulation magazines.

rupbert

What if they are from small press mags or newspapers?

mary rosenblum

Any clip is fine. It tells the editor that you wrote to slant and market, and that you turned your work in on deadline.

patchworkcat

Mary, when you submit a story or article for consideration do you use Times Roman font or Courier? How about for the query or cover letter?

mary rosenblum

You can use either, patch.

mary rosenblum

I use Times myself. Many use Courier.

frazz

Does all of this apply to novels, too?

mary rosenblum

Yes and no, frazz.

mary rosenblum

New names are actually GOOD in novels!

mary rosenblum

If a writer's sales are poor, he/she will often be pressured by the publisher to take on a new pen name and appear as a 'first time novelist'.

mary rosenblum

Now what IS an issue is editing time.

mary rosenblum

Two similar books, with equal potential.

mary rosenblum

One is in a hard to read font.

mary rosenblum

The margins are so narrow that there isn't room for typesetting instructions...

mary rosenblum

and it's in 1 1/2 space rather than double, so the editing will be difficult for the typesetter to read.

mary rosenblum

The other is very professional. Both are new authors.

mary rosenblum

Want to guess whose novel gets bought?

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

deb1234

Isn't it best to have magazine clips before trying to sell a novel?

mary rosenblum

No, deb. Yes, they CAN help. If you had a short story that was a contender for a major award or even won it, and you offer the novel that contains that story, it will help sell the book.

mary rosenblum

But book editors see magazine readers as a different population from book readers.

wolf122

Or self-publishing short-story/novel 1st?

mary rosenblum

Self publishing will not impress an editor one bit.

mary rosenblum

You can self publish excerpts from the phone book. There is no indication of quality.

janp

The author who turnsin professional work. He/She just happens to be a LR student or grad and was taught that way from day one.

mary rosenblum

Which is why we teach you all, but when you're looking at a huge stack of ms, you're not going to waste time guessing who's really a pro and who just knows the format.

mary rosenblum

BUT there are some things that shout 'unpublished newbie' to an editor...

mary rosenblum

and also suggest that you don't know anything about submitting and publishing work.

mary rosenblum

And these you should avoid like the plague!

gerryd429

What if it is an online newsletter that is self-published?

mary rosenblum

Alas, Gerry, the only thing that will impress an editor at all is if your self published work sold more than say, 5000 copies.

mary rosenblum

In fact...I hate to say this...but proudly announcing that you self publislhed a book is one of those 'I'm a newbie and I don't know how to do this' things.

mary rosenblum

Unless you can quote substantial sales that the editor can confirm, just don't say anything.

mary rosenblum

It simply reveals that you don't know anything about the publishing business.

mary rosenblum

Now if your mystery has sold even a couple of thousand copies through Amazon.com and the publisher's website, DO mention that.

mary rosenblum

Those aren't great numbers, but since readers are awash in self published books, they're not terrible.

mary rosenblum

But if you have sold a couple of hundred and you published four years ago, just don't say anything ! :-)

gerryd429

Ok, then what about all the online articles that may or may not pay but have a large readership?

mary rosenblum

No pay is not necessarily a bad thing.

mary rosenblum

If you get a piece published in 'Wired Magazine' for no pay, that is a well respected magazine and your acceptance means you wrote a good piece.

mary rosenblum

I would cite any publilshed work that was accepted by an editor and not self published whether you got paid...

mary rosenblum

or not and whether it's a tiny, teensy press or a big circulation magazine.

mary rosenblum

Editors don't know EVERY magazine out there.

mary rosenblum

If your story was published in Au Prentemps Literary Review...

mary rosenblum

how will the editor know that it has a circulation of 47 in a small cow town college?

mary rosenblum

She probably won't bother to go look it up...maybe...but that will be after she reads the story and decides, in most cases.

mary rosenblum

Present yourself as a publishing author.

mary rosenblum

Okay, here are some things you should not do, because it makes editorial eyes roll and does NOT help your case.

mary rosenblum

Do not announce, "this is my first story ever' or anything like that!

mary rosenblum

Do not say "I am a writing student and have never published'.

mary rosenblum

Editor thinks, 'great, class assignment...'

mary rosenblum

Do not use colored paper, fancy stationary, colored type..

mary rosenblum

fancy fonts, stickers, and so forth on your letters.

mary rosenblum

They should look like they came from a lawyer's office, not like an invitation to a family reunion!

mary rosenblum

Do not tell the fiction editor all about your story...he'll read it for himself, thank you.

mary rosenblum

And never, ever, ever, ever tell the editor why she simply cannot reject this story. And never EVER tell her...

mary rosenblum

that if she DOES reject the story she is a ....[insert invective of choice here]

mary rosenblum

And if you are giggling, don't, because I have read actual examples of all of the above!

mary rosenblum

Keep nonfiction query letters to a single page.

mary rosenblum

Keep fiction cover letters to a half page.

mary rosenblum

And do NOT please put your social security number on the ms.

mary rosenblum

It's not going to make the editor's eyes roll, but it is very dangerous in this day and age of identity theft.

mary rosenblum

People who work in publishing mail rooms are usually minimum wage people and they look at your ms.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Format your manuscript professionally.

mary rosenblum

Double space, always, Times New Roman or Courier font, 12 point in size, NOT 10 point.

mary rosenblum

Use 20 lb bond paper...something a little lighter in weight is okay, but don't use VERY flimsy paper. It's hard to handle. The postage is a business expense.

mary rosenblum

Make sure the type is clear and easy to read.

mary rosenblum

It is FINE to make corrections on the page. You don't need to reprint 300 pages for a couple of typos.

mary rosenblum

If you don't want the ms returned, write 'disposable ms' clearly on the top of the first page.

mary rosenblum

In the top right hand corner of every page after the first page, you print your last name in lower case/title keyword/page number.

mary rosenblum

A page from my story 'Skin Deep' would look like this:

mary rosenblum

rosenblum/skin/24

mary rosenblum

That's page 24.

mary rosenblum

After the last line of your story, center on a new line: [end]

mary rosenblum

That tells the editor you really ARE done and she's not just missing page 34.

mary rosenblum

To indicate a scene break, center a * on a blank line.

mary rosenblum

The asterisk won't show up in the published text...

mary rosenblum

but should the break occur on the last line of the page, the editor will know it's a break.

mary rosenblum

And will also know that your printer didn't hiccough and stick a blank line in by accident.

mary rosenblum

Those are the basics.

mary rosenblum

Many professional writers don't mention their publications.

mary rosenblum

So if you don't mention any, it won't instantly tell the editor that you are unpublished.

mary rosenblum

And do mention any personal experience that applies to what you are submitting, fiction or non.

mary rosenblum

If you are submitting a story set in an ER, and you have been an ER doc for ten years...say so.

mary rosenblum

That tells the editor that your descriptions are accurate. :-)

mary rosenblum

Remember that editors WANT to discover good new writers...

mary rosenblum

but you have to show them that you have done your part and are not causing them extra and unnecessary work.

elisabetam

all of this juicy info applies to any submission, correct? Fict, non, magazine, novel??

mary rosenblum

Yep, formatting is the same for print publications, nearly always.

mary rosenblum

Now, DO read the submission guidelines, especially for online submissions.

mary rosenblum

Often those are different. And there is always an exception that proves the rule!

mary rosenblum

If the guidelines don't say anything specific about formatting, they expect the format I've described above.

mary rosenblum

But some ezines want single space, or a particular font, and will often specify the file type.

mary rosenblum

Now for a novel.

mary rosenblum

You include a title page.

mary rosenblum

Title page has your name, address, phone number, email, or fax number in the upper left corner.

mary rosenblum

The approximate word count appears in the right.

mary rosenblum

A word count, by the way, of 113,411 by the way, is another NEWBIE flag. :-) 113,000 is fine.

mary rosenblum

Same thing with 5432 words. 5400 is fine.

mary rosenblum

For the novel title page, center your title about 1/3 down the page,

mary rosenblum

you by line is centered one space below that. Put your pen name here if you are using one.

mary rosenblum

Your REAL name must go in that upper left corner. Unless your pen name can cash the check.

mary rosenblum

If you are using a pen name, that's all you need. It's the By Tom Jones that tells the editor whose name will appear on the book.

mary rosenblum

The check may be going to Genevieve Smith.

mary rosenblum

No other explanation is needed.

mary rosenblum

You begin your novel on the next page, and you number the whole book consecutively from page one to the end.

mary rosenblum

Every page has that header in the upper right corner: name/title/#

mary rosenblum

Start a new chapter on a new page.

mary rosenblum

You can title every chapter or just label them Chapter One, Chapter Two, and so forth.

mary rosenblum

Same thing for fiction/nonfiction, although most nonfiction books of course will have chapter headings.

mary rosenblum

"FInding A House' instead of Chapter One

mary rosenblum

Making The Offer.

mary rosenblum

Approaching a Lender.

mary rosenblum

That sort of thing...

arfelin

Is it necessary to indicate a scene break?

mary rosenblum

Always, arfelin, or the reader will read right through it and hit a wall when we go suddenly from downtown Shanghai to London in a drizzle.

frazz

What if your book is broken into sections?

mary rosenblum

You would simply title each section with the appropriate heading

info

Which is more common, chapters with or without headings?

mary rosenblum

In fiction, chapter are usually numbered.

mary rosenblum

But sometimes they are titled...especially in books for kids.

mary rosenblum

In nonfic, of course, the sections have headers, which are listed in the index.

t green

does this novel format go for the first three chapters that most editors want in their submission guidelines? do you estimate the word count of the finished novel in your cover letter?

mary rosenblum

Yes! Those three chapters are a test. If your format is poor, the editor assumes the rest of the book will be, too.

mary rosenblum

And yes, you need to tell the editor how long the book is.

bud

Name in the upper right corner is your real name or your pen name?

mary rosenblum

Pen name.

mary rosenblum

Your real name won't appear in the book at all.

mary rosenblum

The manuscript will be labeled by staff using your pen name...

mary rosenblum

the Freeman mystery, in my case, for example.

frazz

Is your informaiton in the upper right afftected?

mary rosenblum

by what, frazz?

tkat_2

Most of the magazines I've encountered ask to put exact word count so in this case would it be ok to use 5432?

mary rosenblum

Absolutely!

mary rosenblum

I'm giving you the 'default' here.

mary rosenblum

Always do exactly what the guidelines tell you to do. If they want the page number in the center bottom of the page...put it there! :-)

frazz

If you've broken your book up into titled sections, does thi

mary rosenblum

Oh, I see. No, it doesn't frazz..

mary rosenblum

the reason you do it that way, is that when the editorial assistant drops the pile of pages on the floor with three other novels...

mary rosenblum

makes it a WHOLE lot easier to sort.

mary rosenblum

And that really happened to an editor friend of mine.

mary rosenblum

Two ms got dropped, and both were numbered only...no name or title key.

mary rosenblum

Took an assistant all day to sort 'em out page by page.

patchworkcat

Using 3-hole punched paper and binding the whole thing together with a shoestring is a no-no?

mary rosenblum

Correct, patch.

mary rosenblum

Pages are always loose, never stapled, punched, and oh yes...

mary rosenblum

the bound ms with the pretty paper cover or plastic sheet cover is another "Reject me!' appeal. :-)

mary rosenblum

You can send your book length ms in a box or a padded mailer.

mary rosenblum

If you want it back, include return postage and a mailing label.

mary rosenblum

They'll supply the padded mailer or reuse your box.

mary rosenblum

Use rubber bands in a padded mailer or it can get pretty battered.

mary rosenblum

And send it so that you have a tracking code: UPS or FedEx.

mary rosenblum

You can use their cheap rates.

frazz

How is italics handled (like dream sequence or thoughts)?

mary rosenblum

Unless specified otherwise in the guidelines, frazz, underline indicates italic.

mary rosenblum

Unless the guidelines tell you it is okay to do so, do not use italic or bold face type.

mary rosenblum

The typesetter doesn't know what to do with it unless the editor makes a note in the margin. More work for the editor and it's work she shouldn't have to be doing.

mary rosenblum

Lesseee...I think we've covered just about everything here.

mary rosenblum

Names matter in fiction, but not as much as a good story.

mary rosenblum

Ability matters in nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

Present your work professionally and it tells the editor that you are serious about your writing,

mary rosenblum

you have taken the time to find out what the profession demands, and you have done it properly.

mary rosenblum

That disposes the editor to publish you if possible. :-)

mary rosenblum

BUT...

mary rosenblum

LIsten up here...

mary rosenblum

Do not lie in bed and sweat over whether you remembered to put that title header on the left or the right.

mary rosenblum

It's not a big deal.

mary rosenblum

A formatting mistake alone will not get you instantly rejected.

mary rosenblum

Many mistakes coupled with mediocre writing will.

mary rosenblum

Many mistakes might cause the editor to choose an equal piece with fewer mistakes.

mary rosenblum

One or two small boo boos are no big deal.

mary rosenblum

But read those guidelines.

mary rosenblum

If they tell you 'do this or we will send it back' then DO it.

mary rosenblum

Or they WILL send it back.

mary rosenblum

There is a magazine, True Romance, that states VERY clearly in its guidelines that ALL stories must be in first person.

mary rosenblum

I get a lot of third person student romances that are intended for that magazine...

mary rosenblum

They won't tell you why they rejected you...you'll just get a form.

mary rosenblum

But do remember...one small mistake isn't going to hurt you.

mary rosenblum

Editors WANT new writers, but they do expect you to do your part.

mary rosenblum

Their job is to polish your prose, not fix formatting errors you should not have made.

mary rosenblum

There is an article of submission basics on the website;

mary rosenblum

Submission Format 101

mary rosenblum

Well, thanks for coming, all!

mary rosenblum

Have a great Fourth, all of you...well, those of you in the US anyway!

doodledorry

you post these too don't you mary

mary rosenblum

I sure do, doodle. Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

arfelin

How informative! Thanks Mary and have a great Fourth!

mary rosenblum

I hope it helps! Have a good Fourth, all. I'll be here Sunday evening for our open chat..

mary rosenblum

it's 5 PM Pacific time...still daylight!

mary rosenblum

Have a great Fourth, all!

janp

Thanks and you have a great fourth, fifth, sixth.......ad infinitum

mary rosenblum

Thanks, Jan. You, too!

gerryd429

Mary...where is that submission basics?

mary rosenblum

It's in Surviving and Thriving: Getting Started Submission Format 101 is the title.

mary rosenblum

There's an index of articles on the site, too, remember.

mary rosenblum

You can find articles by topic.

mary rosenblum

Good night, all!

 

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