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mary rosenblum
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Good morning, all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all had a good
weekend and are seeing a few signs of spring, at least!
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
narrative today, a topic that is pertinent to Nonfiction writers as well as
fiction writers.
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mary rosenblum
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It can get confusing when you
constantly hear 'show, don't tell', but then some stories are definitely
'told' by the author...
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mary rosenblum
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as are personal narratives in
nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, first person
POV is a narrative, told by your Point of View character.
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mary rosenblum
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So when are these 'narratives'
instead of 'telling' and what makes narrative good?
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mary rosenblum
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There IS a difference and a
powerful narrative voice is a very important skill...
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mary rosenblum
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if you're going to write
either nonfiction personal narrative or narrative fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon
in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach
me.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, of course,
narrative, first person, and that dreaded 'telling' are all the same thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Someone...either you the
author, or your POV character...is telling the story to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not easy, as a novice
writer, to really comprehend the difference between strong narrative and
'telling'...and it's an important difference.
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mephistopheles
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then as a newbie with assignment
3 looming before me, what is the difference between narrative voice and
telling voice?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, the limitation of ALL
narrative is that you make the reader aware with every sentence...
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mary rosenblum
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that he/she is not living that
scene... Someone is telling you what is happening.
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mary rosenblum
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So, in effect, you push the
reader one step back from 'living' the adventure.
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mary rosenblum
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So the difference between
'telling' and 'narrative' is...does that telling add more to the piece than
you lose by pushing the reader back?
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kungfumama
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one of the foremost narrative
fiction POV is Watson of Sherlock Holmes fame. Even to this day, the
stories are very compelling.
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mary rosenblum
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Excellent example, Kung. And
another powerful narrative voice is...
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mary rosenblum
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Kipling's overt narrator in
the 'Just So Stories'...
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mary rosenblum
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where he addresses the reader
as 'Oh, best beloved'.
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geordee
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Mary; Please excuse this naieve
? but where is this red ?
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mary rosenblum
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What, geordee? The books? Or
the transcript of this forum?
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monicaguinta
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Like Scout in "To Kill a
Mockingbird"
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mary rosenblum
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There you go... my favorite
all time example of many things good. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And in all three cases, the
voice of the narrator adds to the story.
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cosmos
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So is narrative voice sharing or
talking to a pretend reader, which is different from internal dialogue?
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mary rosenblum
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Right, cosmos. Narrative voice
is the author, or a character speaking.
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mary rosenblum
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Internal monologue is the
character's own internal thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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And some first person
narratives are created to seem like that character's internal thought...I
tend to use that form in my first person...
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mary rosenblum
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but you're still creating a
voice that adds to the story rather than weakening it.
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mary rosenblum
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In essence the
narrator...whether it is YOU or a created character...IS a character in
that story.
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mary rosenblum
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And therefore you need to
create a three dimensional character through that voice for your reader.
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monicaguinta
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I find it hard to keep the pace
up when I write this way
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mary rosenblum
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You may simply be a natural
'third person writer', monica. I am. :-) But sometimes...
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mary rosenblum
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a story simply works better in
first person, and then I do it.
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cosmos
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Is narrative voice always done
in first person?
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ling630
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This can be done with third
person story too, can't it Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, yes.
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mary rosenblum
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First person is 'I'.
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mary rosenblum
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Many personal narratives us
that first person narrative voice.
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mary rosenblum
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In fiction, it's your
character who is 'I'.
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mary rosenblum
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In personal narrative
nonfiction it is you, the author, who is the 'I'...
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mary rosenblum
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but many personal narratives
and fiction use third...
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mary rosenblum
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with a strong 'storytelling'
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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In Kipling's Just So Stories,
for example, there is no 'I'...
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mary rosenblum
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Kipling tells the stories of
his animal characters in third person...The elephant's child did this or
that...
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mary rosenblum
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but the voice is strongly a
storyteller's voice, telling the story.
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mary rosenblum
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You see that in many personal
narratives, too, although I see 'I' used more often.
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ling630
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That is what I do, but I find
that it is hard to keep the story in one narrative. I end up with first
person along with third person. Can that work or is it best to stick to one
or the other ?
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mary rosenblum
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You really should stick to one
or the other, ling. It generally confuses the HECK out of the readers when
you switch like that.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you're using that 'I'
narrative, you can certainly tell us about what is going on for long
periods of time without intruding yourself.
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mary rosenblum
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When readers are confused is
when you use a first person 'I' and then move to a scene where that 'I' is
not present.
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geordee
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Can you give us a simple example
of Narrative vs. telling
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mary rosenblum
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Yes. And in a first person
narrative where you, the author, are using 'I' occasionally and telling us
about your life experience, you will use a lot of third person...
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mary rosenblum
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but it's still a first person
narrative...you are telling us about things you remember.
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mary rosenblum
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You were there, obviously.
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mary rosenblum
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Example.
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janecj333
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Wasn't it Like Water For
Chocolate that has pages of telling and then switching from 1st to 3rd
person and back? It was unreadable, as I recall.
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mary rosenblum
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I haven't read it, but I did
hear that it was a difficult book.
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mary rosenblum
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Certainly, while you can do
anything, it is very hard to pull something like that off without jolting
many readers.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon
in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach
me.
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mary rosenblum
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Let me do a bit of 'telling'
first...
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mary rosenblum
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the kind of thing you're not
supposed to do. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Jeanne walked into the living
room and sat down. She looked out the window at the apple blossoms on the
old Gravenstein tree. She was annoyed that Bart was late again. Bart was
always late. She fiddled with her charm bracelet and couldn't help but
watch the clock.
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mary rosenblum
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Okay. That's telling.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, I am merely
describing the action...I am telling the readers what I see, and I'm not
really adding anything to that action.
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mary rosenblum
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This would be a stronger scene
if we just 'saw' Jeanne. I, the narrator am merely telling you that she is
annoyed iwth Bart, that Bart is always late.
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mary rosenblum
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I tell you that she can't help
watching the clock, but I, the narrator am a colorless voice...
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mary rosenblum
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adding nothing to that scene.
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geezer
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Jeanne walked into the room.
"Hi, Bart," she said. Now that is a tag and not telling unless
it's longer?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, let me give you the
showing version...
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mary rosenblum
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Before I do the stronger
narrative form:
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mary rosenblum
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Jeanne walked into the living
room and sat down. No Bart. Of course. She scowled at the old Grave,
blooming reliably. Always. He always made her late. She glanced at the
clock. Five minutes. How much longer?
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mary rosenblum
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This is HER awareness of the
wait in the living room.
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mary rosenblum
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It simply gives the reader a
stronger sense of her as a person...we share her thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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She notices 'the old Grav' and
thinks about its reliability compared to Barts.
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mary rosenblum
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Now let's do this in narrative
and see if we can convey the same things with a strong narrative voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Jeanne walked into the living
room and sat down. She had arrived exactly on time, of course. She always
arrived exactly on time. That way, she had an accurate count...
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mary rosenblum
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of exactly how many minutes
late Bart was when he'd finally arrive. That count was very important to
her, as important as the count and quality of another woman's pearls.
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mary rosenblum
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And like pearls, she polished
each tardy minute to a high gloss as she waited.
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mary rosenblum
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Frowning, she fixed her eyes
on the old Gravenstein outside the window, comparing it's steadfast
blooming with her brother's unreliability.
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mary rosenblum
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This is, of course, very
unlike our first two examples.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not just telling you what
I see.
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mary rosenblum
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In the second, 'showing'
example, we perceived the scene through Jeanne's awareness and shared her
annoyance with Bart directly...
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mary rosenblum
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without any other context.
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mary rosenblum
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But here, I, the author, know
Jeanne well. And I am filtering this scene through MY awareness...
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mary rosenblum
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adding the larger context of
Jeanne's annoyance.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm letting the reader know
that this is a long-time thing between Jeanne and Bart, that while Bart may
be late, Jeanne is focused on his lateness...
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mary rosenblum
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in a way that might suggest
larger relationship issues. I am putting my two cents worth in here, in
other words.
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rey
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Can you switch first person
point of view from character to another character in the same story?
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mary rosenblum
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I have seen it done well very
few times, rey. It's VERY hard to pull off unless your characters sound SO
different...
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mary rosenblum
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in terms of voice that the
reader INSTANTLY knows who is speaking.
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mary rosenblum
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When I have seen it (and I'm
trying to come up with a specific title, but so far drawing a blank)...
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mary rosenblum
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one voice has been
'different'...an alien, an animal, a rock...something like that...
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mary rosenblum
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so that it didn't speak like
the other first person character.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not something to attempt
casually and expect a lot of success with.
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andi
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so seing it through Jeanne eyes
all that last wouldn't be in there
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, Andi. She is just
annoyed with Bart. She isn't aware that this is a metaphor for a power
struggle between her and her brother.
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curseofthe44
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I recently read an article on a
writing site that many editors are tired of seeing stories in first person.
Do you think this is true?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes and no, curse.
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mary rosenblum
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What editors are tired of is
poor quality first person. It's very hard to write GOOD first person...
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mary rosenblum
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and most first person stories
really shouldn't be in first person, in my opinion.
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mary rosenblum
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We're talking unpublished ms,
here. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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When a story needs first
person, it really works...but as with my narrative examples...
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mary rosenblum
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if your first person character
is merely describing action...
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mary rosenblum
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use third person.
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janecj333
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Is this still narrative?
"Next thing I know Jeanne wanders into the room. She's doing this
thing with her wrist, like looking at the watch is gonna hurry that bum up.
Bart's always late, I wanna tell her. He's always GONNA be late. An idiot
could've divined her entire married future when he wriggled through the
gate at St. Gabriel's in his slippers and and robe."
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, Jane.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a very strong
narrative voice. Notice that this narrator is commenting on Jeanne, not
just describing action with bland prose.
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mary rosenblum
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"An idiot could have
devined....' This is the narrator's opinion of Jeanne.
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mary rosenblum
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We are getting a sense of what
the narrator thinks of Jeanne.
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cosmos
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I went off to read some of
Kipling's Just So stories from my bookcase. So third person narrative is
story telling, as in fairy tales. Good story telling doesn't tell but show
through narrative. Is this correct?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...although it doesn't
always have to be that fairytale 'once upon a time' voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Jane's version is also a
storyteller telling us about Jeanne.
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mary rosenblum
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I just read a retelling of
Cinderella by Gardner Doizois in narrative form...
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mary rosenblum
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and again, the narrative voice
is strong and adds a lot of personal perception to the story...think of it
as 'spin'.
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cosmos
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How do you know your first
person story isn't working and you should switch to third person?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, generally, if a story
just won't work for me, and I can't put my finger on the reason it feels
'flat'...
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mary rosenblum
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I'll just try writing the
first scene in first person. If the story takes off...that's the right
voice.
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rey
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thanks, I have been practice
writing with two characters, one is very arrogant and thinks he can take on
the world, while the other is living in a time with a lot of social
standards and trys to keep up with society standards
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mary rosenblum
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They sound like a good
character pair, rey...instant friction! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon
in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach
me.
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andi
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Mary off the topic. i'm starting
a story about my pet and i was thinking of trying for a childrens book does
it always have to have drawings?
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mary rosenblum
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It depends on the reading
level, andi, and what you are trying to accomplish.
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mary rosenblum
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Realize that publishers prefer
to select the artist.
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mary rosenblum
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They do not expect...nor
want...you to send drawings to accompany your text.
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geordee
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Mary; thanks for that example.
It cleared out al lot of fog.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm glad, geordee...it is very
difficult to understand where telling ends and narrative begins when you
are first writing.
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mary rosenblum
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And as far as first person POV
stories go, there are good reasons to select first person.
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mary rosenblum
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ONe is if your story is very
internal.
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mary rosenblum
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If you find that your
character is doing a lot of thinking...try using first person.
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mary rosenblum
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If your story is very action
driven, you might be better off with third.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that narrative
allows...and really requires...the input of your narrator..
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mary rosenblum
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that narrator should give us
more than a mere description of the action.
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cosmos
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When you say that narrative
voice is spin, then do you mean that a great public speaker who shares a
passion to an audience is speaking in narrative voice? Just like the great
story tellers who come to the library to share tales with children?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Any time you speak in
public you should be delivering a narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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Even if it's a biology
lecture!
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mary rosenblum
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THat is the essence of good
public speaking...think of the college lectures that put you to sleep.
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mary rosenblum
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That's an example of bad
narrative.
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dfitz
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Mary, I am having difficutly
with lesson 3. I am doing a factual article that discusses current
developments in the medical field. HOw do I insert my opinions into this to
make it a stronger narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you may not be able to
in a factual narrative, dfitz...
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that all nonfiction
pieces are not narratives in the sense of author involvement.
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mary rosenblum
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You have no narrative voice in
journalism...it's a big NO.
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mary rosenblum
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ladyg, try typing /ask in your
regular send bar and then your question...
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mary rosenblum
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you can do a longer question
that way.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are trying to convey
information for an 'informative piece' without delivering an opinion...
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mary rosenblum
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then you don't use narrative
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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You simply deliver the
information factually, in a well organized manner...
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mary rosenblum
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using clear, succinct,
uncluttered prose.
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mary rosenblum
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(Read Zinsser's chapters on
clutter and simplicity in On Writing Well for a great 'how to')
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cosmos
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For dfitz...I find experts with
the opinions I want in the article and include their quotes.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, and you can deliver
factual information as a persuasive piece, where, for example...
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mary rosenblum
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you are trying to persuade the
reader that we need stricter gas mileage standards...
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mary rosenblum
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and there you will use a bit
more sense of narrative voice, but nothing like we used in the Jeanne
example.
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janecj333
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So, if strong narrative voice is
important in 1st person, I'm thinking that narrative sometimes has to be
plain, too. Things happen and there's no emotional content.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, not necessarily, Jane. If
you have a lot happening and your narrator isn't going to comment on it
much, maybe you'd be better off with third person.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes sometimes, your first
person narrator is just going to say...
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mary rosenblum
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I got my horse out of the
stable and hit the road before Dukie could wake up from his drunken stupor
and realize...
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mary rosenblum
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his purse was missing...
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mary rosenblum
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But if you're doing to do a
lot of 'and then everybody went to have dinner in the inn. After that we
bedded down in the stable loft for the night...
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mary rosenblum
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and this goes on and on...it's
boring.
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mary rosenblum
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Use third person and let us
scratch fleas with the POV for awhile.
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ladyg
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Will you comment on the success
of Annie Dillard, etc, with regard to "telling vs showing in
non-fiction? Is that the ability to "spin"?
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mary rosenblum
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I haven't read all her books,
but her early ones were very much narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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'Pilgrim at Tinker Creek' was
the first I read...
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mary rosenblum
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and that's a strong narrative
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of Ken Kesey's writing
is, as well.
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ladyg
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...but with a lot of the color
that comes from using the showing techiniques used in fiction...?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes...
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mary rosenblum
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that's part of what goes into
strong narrative...
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mary rosenblum
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a powerful use of details and
imagery...
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...bland prose is
bland prose, whether you use it in first person, third person, narrative,
or limited third POV.
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mary rosenblum
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It's weak.
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mary rosenblum
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When you couple a bland
narrative voice with bland descriptions of the action and visuals...you
have boring prose. Period.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon
in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach
me.
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kungfumama
|
in your opinion, what are some
books and/or authors we should read to get a good perspective on narrative
voice?
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mary rosenblum
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well, To Kill a Mockingbird is
a very nice example of fiction done in narrative form.
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mary rosenblum
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Scout is the narrator.
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mary rosenblum
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Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at
Tinker Creek is strong narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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I think that book won a couple
of awards as I recall.
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mary rosenblum
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The personal narrative writers
like Bailey White are good examples of narrative voice.
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ladyg
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and Zinsser would love it--it's
short! :)
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mary rosenblum
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LOL, ladyg.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, Sherlock
Holmes, narrated by Watson, is a prime example. :-)
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janecj333
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Maybe it's present versus past
tense that's bothering me, in 1st person.
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mary rosenblum
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You can use either one, Jane. I
tend to prefer present tense, but it's hard to keep that tight focus all
the way through.
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janecj333
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I guess that when I read 1st
person it all sounds like dialogue, even the narrative, because of the
narrator.
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mary rosenblum
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In a way, it IS dialogue,
jane. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's a one sided conversation
with the reader.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon
in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach
me.
|
|
dfitz
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Poisonwood Bible?
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mary rosenblum
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Sorry, dfitz...you sent me
this some time ago..
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, that's very narrative as
I recall.
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mary rosenblum
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The main thing to remember is
that the dividing line between 'telling' and 'narrative'...
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mary rosenblum
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is the contribution of the
narrator.
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mary rosenblum
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That narrator should add
something. It should not be an unvarnished rendition of the action only.
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dfitz
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I intended that as an example of
multiple first person POV
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mary rosenblum
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Ah...I couldn't remember.
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mary rosenblum
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I had forgotten she did that.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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That was not a book that stuck
in my memory very much.
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mary rosenblum
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God of Small THings by
Arundhati Roy is another piece of strong, narrative fiction.
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geezer
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So the amount of
"telling" distinguishes between a tag and the narrative. What's
the dividing lone?
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mary rosenblum
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Geezer, a 'tag' is just the
identifier attached to a line of dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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"I don't know," Ruby
said.
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mary rosenblum
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Ruby said is the tag.
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mary rosenblum
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It identifies the speaker of
'I don't know'.
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mary rosenblum
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Or you can use what I call an
'action tag'.
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mary rosenblum
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"I don't know." Ruby
crossed her arms.
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mary rosenblum
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Ruby crossed her arms, is a
beat of action that identifies the speaker of "I don't know'.
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mary rosenblum
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If Ruby is our POV, she is
simply aware of crossing her arms.
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mary rosenblum
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If another character is the
POV, he/she sees Ruby cross her arms.
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mary rosenblum
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If we're doing narrative, we'd
probably add more to this.
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mary rosenblum
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"I don't know." Ruby
crossed her arms, giving us that 'you won't make me so don't even bother'
look.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, the narrator gives us a
larger picture rather than the action.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's the key difference.
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mary rosenblum
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In 'showing' you let the
readers figure out what is going on for themselves...
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mary rosenblum
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which makes them feel as if
they are sharing a real adventure.
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mary rosenblum
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IN narrative, the narrator
adds a lot more context to the action so that even while we're being told
the story, the story is rich enough...
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mary rosenblum
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that it compensates.
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geezer
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But, if he comtinued from there
it would become telling?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, narrative IS telling.
It's just that the 'telling' you don't want to do is MERELY telling the
reader what the narrator sees.
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mary rosenblum
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And good narrative is telling
the reader things that add interest to the action.
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mary rosenblum
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As with many things in
writing, it's a matter of degree.
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mary rosenblum
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Ideally, your narrative voice
is much different than plain description.
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mary rosenblum
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AS in our example of Jeanne,
the narrator is giving us her 'spin' on Jeanne's behavior.
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mary rosenblum
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And we get a sense of the
narrator's feelings about jeanne.
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mary rosenblum
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When you're doing first person
narrative...take the time to develope a strong unique voice for your first
person character...
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mary rosenblum
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so that it doesn't become
bland 'telling'.
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mary rosenblum
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Give us a sense of your POV
character's personality with every sentence in the story.
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kungfumama
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which means developing your
character first, like on a character sheet, before you write?
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mary rosenblum
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It helps most people, kung.
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mary rosenblum
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Othewise, most novice writers
have a tendency to just turn that character into a plot puppet...
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mary rosenblum
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that does or says whatever the
plot requires. Not very realistic and readers know it.
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mary rosenblum
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It always takes me some time
to really 'hear' a first person character's speech patterns...
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mary rosenblum
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so that I can do a strong
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to let that character
ramble on for a few days, commenting on all the things going on around the
house before I put that person onto the page. :-)
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geezer
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Off topic. Does the manuscript
for a novel require a word count the same as a SS?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, it does, geeze, rounded
off to the nearest thousand.
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kungfumama
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what about the Lemony Snickett
series? It has a very quirky narrative style.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, yes, great example!
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mary rosenblum
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That's half the book! It's the
voice that makes those adventures really appeal.
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mary rosenblum
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Written without that quirky
voice, they'd just be kids being chased by the evil bad guy.
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mary rosenblum
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Really good narrative voice is
as important as the story plot itself.
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mary rosenblum
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Take it away and the story
suffers.
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mary rosenblum
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If you take it away and the
story does NOT suffer...
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mary rosenblum
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maybe you shouldn't be using
narrative voice!
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all have a good
week...and if you're going to write narratives, really take that voice
'over the top'.
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janecj333
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I'm thinking of some of the
horrible narrative voices...with dialect you have to wade through.
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mary rosenblum
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yeah, well some people INSIST
on writing phonetic dialect...
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mary rosenblum
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she says, thinking of Brian
Jacques cockney moles!
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geezer
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Uncle Remus
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...we'll talk about dialect
on another Forum. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcripts in
the usual place, all.
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good week!
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