Forum Transcripts

Learning to be a Good Writer in Ten Minutes; 5/31/05

Event start time:

Tue May 31 12:07:22 2005

Event end time:

Tue May 31 13:32:07 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you're having a good week and had a fine holiday weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about how to become a good writer in ten minutes! : If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Me, I have a cold, courtesy of my good friend with whom I stayed while I was in Seattle. Sigh.

mary rosenblum

Be glad this type of virus doesn't propagate over the internet!

mary rosenblum

I may have to duck out of here for a couple of minutes...my agent is expecting Tor Books to present their formal offer for my next SF book today and may call me during the Forum.

gail

Ten minutes?!!! I guess I've WAY over-shot the mak -- it's been years and I'm still not "there" yet.

mary rosenblum

Well, the original request was said facetiously...but it got me to thinking...

mary rosenblum

that we tell people what good writing includes in workshops and classes...

mary rosenblum

but we don't always give much detail about what you do exactly to get better as a writer...

mary rosenblum

so a lot of folks feel as if they are drowning in 'do this, don't do that'...

mary rosenblum

and don't really know what to do with it all. It CAN seem very overwhelming as you keep getting told 'do that this way' over and over again.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about how to become a good writer in ten minutes! : If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

The ten minute part is simply to indicate that 'getting better' is something you really do in small accessible steps...

mary rosenblum

I personally think of them as 'quantum leaps'...that 'Wow!' moment when suddenly something I kept trying to do suddenly works and I KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

mary rosenblum

And afterward, it seems so obvious! But it sure wasn't before that 'wow' moment.

mary rosenblum

I see a very common mindset in novice writers...was my own, too, when I first started out!

mary rosenblum

And that is the believe that everybody has a static measure of 'talent'...and it doesn't change...it's merely a matter of writing the right story and getting that foot in the door.

gail

lol Sorry, I just had to laugh. You commented about people telling us to "do that this way" over and over again. But, in my mind, if I'm being told something over and over again, then I'm not "learning" very well at all! :-D

mary rosenblum

Well, actually, what I meant gail is that you master THIS technique, then you get told, 'now do this other thing differently'...'this isn't working''....

mary rosenblum

so you feel after awhile as if the bar is always being raised.

mary rosenblum

But what really slows down that 'learning' is the feeling that every story you write has to be the next Pulitzer winner.

mary rosenblum

So you tend to do the same thing...I'll try it again and get it right this time, I'll try again and get it right this time....

mary rosenblum

and when you get rejections, you get told 'this is weak', 'that doesn't work'... you can feel that you are being told your writing ability is not adequate.

gwanny

if someone doesnt raise my bar I will only be mediocre, true

mary rosenblum

Well, you know, gwanny, the people who end up as really good writers raise their OWN bar.

mary rosenblum

I'm still raising mine, and falling on my face when I try to jump that new height the first few times. :-)

gwanny

point taken,,ty

mary rosenblum

Most of us are our own worst critics, gwanny. I have many PUBLISHED works that I'm not particularly pleased with. Could have been better...should have thought of that.... that sort of thing.

smilingsunflower

I'm finding that writing is all about asking the right questions about each section of writing to see if you have what you need. I'm making a writing notebook with questions for each area...about character, etc.

mary rosenblum

Good for you, sunflower. That is an excellent thing to do.

mary rosenblum

And actually, learning to separate questions from doubts is a big first step.

mary rosenblum

It's really easy to end up thinking..."Is this any good?" and feeling that it is not. That's a doubt and probably has little to do with the reality of the story.

mary rosenblum

When we're in doubting mode, everything seems awful.

redneckgirl-7

What should you do when in doubting mode?

mary rosenblum

This is when a good reader or two really really counts.

mary rosenblum

Find another starting writer or a very good reader who gives you sound feedback on your stories.

mary rosenblum

When all you can see is 'yuck'...give the story to those readers and include a list of the doubts that are tormenting you at the end...to be read after the story.

mary rosenblum

Is my character real? Did you believe his actions at the climax? Did you really like my world?

mary rosenblum

That sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

And always the very important question that you MUST include.

mary rosenblum

What were the best things about this story?

mary rosenblum

You need to know your strengths as well as your weak points.

writeaway

How do we get out of the doubting mode when your rejections give you no hint as to why your ms was rejected.

mary rosenblum

You have to understand that until you start publishing regularly, rejections are not a tool to help you improve.

mary rosenblum

They are a brusque 'no thanks' and that is all.

mary rosenblum

And they can be dangerous if they are more than that.

mary rosenblum

One editor may reject your story and tell you that the main character seemed to gentle..

mary rosenblum

so you hurry up and change the story, make the main character a real tough guy...

mary rosenblum

and your next rejection is because the MC is tough, not gentle... even an editor's opinion is only one opinion...

mary rosenblum

get your input from readers, not editors.

redneckgirl-7

Mary I can't think of the word what do you call it when you

redneckgirl-7

go from a chapter to a background them back to story again?

mary rosenblum

Flashback, redneck?

tkat_2

Mary, Where did you get your "motivation" to become a better writer? Did it come from writer friends or self-determination?

mary rosenblum

Oh, goodness, t, it's totally internal and will drive me until I die.

mary rosenblum

My motivation is not simply to be published...never was.

mary rosenblum

My motivation was to touch readers the way books touched me.

mary rosenblum

THAT will always drive me to get better, reach more readers, be more accessible, more powerful as a writer.

gwanny

I just wanna write for heavens sake,,

gwanny

sorry, just discouraged today,,,oh tomorrow come!

mary rosenblum

Ah, welcome to the real world of writing, gwanny. You simply get these 'I"m never gonna make it' days.

mary rosenblum

And later, you still get 'em, they just have new forms...

mary rosenblum

"I'm never gonna finish this book...I'm never gonna write something as good as XXX...I'm never gonna sell another book... and so on.

mary rosenblum

Forever.

mary rosenblum

And ever.

mary rosenblum

And it doesn't matter how much success you have!

mary rosenblum

You just realize there IS a tomorrow on the other side of that down time.

redneckgirl-7

isit an ok thing to do

redneckgirl-7

In my true crime book I started story in a chapter and then

mary rosenblum

Sorry..posted them backward. I think I lost part of your question, red, but I gather you started..

mary rosenblum

and then shifted to flashback.

mary rosenblum

Well it can work, but you need to be careful. At the beginning of a book...

mary rosenblum

the reader doesn't know much yet, so it's easy to confuse 'em with a flashback and you run the risk that the reader might prefer the 'flashback universe'..

mary rosenblum

and quit reading when you return to your story.

mary rosenblum

Might want to put it up as a prologue?

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about how to become a good writer in ten minutes! : If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

smilingsunflower

Mary, you said your writing made a dramatic leap when you went to a writing retreat for fiction writers in your interview for WILLAMETTE WRITERS NEWSLETTER. Since I don't have the bucks, I want to create this experience in an inexpensive way. Ideas?

mary rosenblum

A good critique group will have a similar effect.

mary rosenblum

What that writers workshop did for me...and this ties rather nicely into what we're talking about...is that it...

mary rosenblum

gave me a golden opportunity and a lot of encouragement to experiment.

mary rosenblum

It's easy, when you're only sending your work off to editors...

mary rosenblum

to try too hard. This HAS to be the winner, the one that sells...

mary rosenblum

so you do what you think works and you do it again and again and again...

mary rosenblum

and you don't take risks because a sale is on the line.

mary rosenblum

What I learned to do there was to 'mess around'.

mary rosenblum

I tried things I wouldn't have written had I been intending to send a story off.

mary rosenblum

What did I have to lose? Nineteen people saying 'yuck', that's all.

mary rosenblum

And surprise! I found out I could do things I probably wouldn't have tried for a long time otherwise...if ever.

mary rosenblum

And it was a lesson I have used since.

mary rosenblum

I write all kinds of stuff.

mary rosenblum

If it works, I sell it.

mary rosenblum

If it doesn't, I learned something, and sometimes I can rewrite 'em and sell 'em late...

mary rosenblum

later...when I'm better at this.

gail

Those "risks" you tried, did you submit any of them?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Some sold, many did not. A few have sold recently when I looked back at 'em and realized what the flaw was.

gail

I belong to an on-line writer's (critique & companionship) group and there's one thing I've noticed about critiques. While all the writers are fairly consistent in the "mechanics" of the writing, there is seldom any consensus on the plot. Opinions seem to be based upon the writer-reader's genre of preference. How can I gleen "what works" from this context?

mary rosenblum

It is hard in a mixed-genre group like that.

mary rosenblum

What works for a SF reader will go over the head of a non SF reader...

mary rosenblum

same with the other genres. Every genre has its own 'conventions' and readers are used to them.

mary rosenblum

By conventions I don't mean writers conferences but rather style, how much you have to explain, what you can assume the reader already knows, etc.

mary rosenblum

So my expectations from a non SF reader are different than I would have from a SF reader if I'm critiquing a SF story.

mary rosenblum

In fact, I tend to workshop my SF stories with other SF writers and my mystery stories iwth Mystery or mainstream writers.

mary rosenblum

Some universals like good characterization, description, pacing, etc tend to cross genres.

redneckgirl-7

How much flashback is to much in a crime novel mary?

mary rosenblum

It's too much when the reader is no longer sure where or when he/she is...or when it becomes more interesting than your main plot, redneck. Readers will have to tell you if you cross that line.

gwanny

Assignment 3 is getting to me,I dont like non f writing.

mary rosenblum

Aha...but here is your chance to take that risk, gwanny, and improve what you do.

mary rosenblum

Don't think of it that way. Think of it this way: What can I get away with for this assignment that will help me? What do I need to work on?

mary rosenblum

What about narrative voice? That helps with first person, too.

mary rosenblum

Okay. I'm going to write a nonfiction narrative about the misadventures of my neice's wedding day...

mary rosenblum

and I'm going to see if I can make it funny. I'm lousy at humor, so maybe I'll discover something here...

mary rosenblum

and I can use it later when I do a first person story.

mary rosenblum

LR is another place where you can take risks.

mary rosenblum

Do things you have never tried.

mary rosenblum

Work on things that you think you need to improve on.

mary rosenblum

Do a totally descriptive 'there and back again' story and see if you can balance rich detail with action so that the pace doesn't drag.

mary rosenblum

Who cares if its publishable if you learn better how to balance pacing and action...

mary rosenblum

and later on, maybe you're rewrite it and sell it.

mary rosenblum

If you approach every piece as a potential pulitzer winner or a test, you will improve very slowly...

mary rosenblum

because you will not try risky things.

mary rosenblum

If you give yourself permission to mess up...you'll improve a lot faster and save those 'messes'. You'll see the problems and fix 'em later on.

writeaway

Right now I'm having difficulty in getting my story from thought process to typed form. Any suggestions?

mary rosenblum

Well, to me, it always feels like standing on the edge of a cold swimming pool on a hot day. I know I'll have fun once I get in there...

mary rosenblum

but I hate that 'shock' of jumping into the cold water...so I hesitate.

mary rosenblum

Jump in. Just start writing.

mary rosenblum

ONly way, write.

gail

Would you recommend that I find out the members' genre preferences and then ask them (only) for a critique? Or, would that be exclusionary and limiting in the feedback?

mary rosenblum

That tends to not work well in a group setting gail. Just don't give as much weight to what your other genre writers tell you.

mary rosenblum

I never take a groups opinions equally...

mary rosenblum

I know this person never gets what I'm doing with characters (but he's good with science), and that person ALWAYS wants more internal monologue, but this person is great at spotting character weaknesses...

mary rosenblum

even if she can't see a plot hole even if she falls into it!

mary rosenblum

So I cherry-pick.

mary rosenblum

I listen to this comment, ignore that one...

roe

Just for the record I HATED non fiction. Had a terrible time with Assignment 3 Since then, thanks to encouragement from a writing buddy, Speck, I've had over 30 non fiction articles published Hang in there all of you who don't like it, I think You don't like it cause you THINK you don't know anything I found out I did know about stuff after all

mary rosenblum

And you don't have to know anything, actually. :-)_ You just have to know someone who knows something.

mary rosenblum

I have friends who are serious nonfiction freelancers...support themselves.

mary rosenblum

They are not experts in anything at all, not one of 'em (except freelance nonfiction)...

mary rosenblum

they are simply good at writing. They find out the stuff that the editors want, interview a couple of people, and write it up.

ling630

When writing an article piece is it better to just state facts and write the piece or is it better to have your opinion in the piece too?

mary rosenblum

Ling it depends on what you are doing.

mary rosenblum

The only weakness I see in the LR course..,.and it's not a big one...is that they let you write articles...

mary rosenblum

before you have chosen a market.

mary rosenblum

You don't do that in the real world of freelance...

mary rosenblum

You write FOR your market...so if a magazine features a lot of opinion pieces, you offer the editor a piece that includes your opinion.

mary rosenblum

If teh magazine features very cut and dried how-to pieces...that's what you offer, and you keep your personal voice or opinions to yourself.

mary rosenblum

It entirely depends on which magazine you want to sell this to.

gwanny

ty mary, I am gonna re-write the N/F and use humor

mary rosenblum

Do that, gwanny. It will really help improve your first person voice, when you use first person in a story.

mary rosenblum

And remember, all you nonfiction people...

mary rosenblum

when you're doing a narrative piece, create yourself as a STRONG character...

mary rosenblum

don't fade into the woodwork. Decide who you are, make yourself a bit more extreme than you are, and your narrative piece will stand out from those boring monotones.

geezer

Define risky things?

mary rosenblum

Writing something you don't know how to do and have no idea how to sell.

mary rosenblum

Experimenting, in other words, with no certainty of success.

ling630

Is it possible to combine non fiction and fiction together for a piece on epilepsy true experience along with fictional story line?

mary rosenblum

Probably not for the nonfiction markets, ling. Certainly lots of fiction stories are true stories that have been fictionalized for dramatic reasons.

mary rosenblum

But nonfiction is assumed by readers to be truth and editors are VERY twitchy about that after the recent spate of 'made up news'.

smilingsunflower

I'm finding that when you learn about the craft of different types of writing, all your writing improves. The book on screenwriting I'm reading now, STORY by McKee, has great tips on creating character and conflict in great depth.

mary rosenblum

OH, I strongly suggest that you write in all genres. It's a great learning experience.

mary rosenblum

And you may well find you have hidden talents you didn't know were there.

speckledorf

One thing I found that helps is to have someone critique my work who is writing at a more advanced level than I. They see more than those who are on or about the same level with me.

mary rosenblum

Well, yes, that does help. Just don't make the mistake of believing that just because someone has published they know EVERYTHING. LOL Remember, YOU are the authority on your story.

tkat_2

AHHH, the old "who you know" trick. :)

mary rosenblum

In nonfiction, that is everything, tkat. :-)

mary rosenblum

Really and truely, the nonfic full time freelancers write in fields they have no personal expertise in...

mary rosenblum

oh, many of them do now, but they started by finding someone whom they could quote.

writeaway

Mary on ling's question couldn't the stroy be fiction, but mc 's problems with epilepsy be true experiences?

mary rosenblum

Of course, but that will publish in the fiction universe, not the nonfiction universe.

mary rosenblum

The young reporter who got into serious trouble...NY Times?... did just that...

mary rosenblum

he made up a family in order to report on the wellfare system, etc.

mary rosenblum

He probably was reporting some very valid realities about the system, but because the family was fictional...

mary rosenblum

and he didn't tell readers that, he got in SERIOUS trouble and so did his editor.

mary rosenblum

In general, people who read nonfiction WANT reality. They do not want a fictional illustration.

gwanny

Unethical, as a reader I want truth when it says it is truth.

mary rosenblum

Exactly. And I agree...it might have been for good reasons (although I suspect it was for a shot at the Pulitzer), but it was still unethical.

tkat_2

That also happened to someone who won a Pulitzer Prize. Her family was fictional too.

mary rosenblum

Yep...there have been two or three of those. That's why editors are WAY gunshy now.

ling630

Can you have a true story and in your introduction say the names have been changed for the privacy of their lives, but who wish their story to be told. Is that fiction or non fiction?

mary rosenblum

This is standard in nonfiction, ling. Most of the stories about violence, crime, drugs, etc...

mary rosenblum

that you hear on the news or read in the paper have renamed those people.

mary rosenblum

That is to ensure the safety of the sources...BUT...you have to be able to name your real source if needed.... Usually, you include the sources in your query letter to the editor.

writeaway

Could he have done the same piece for a mag with a statement that the characters were ficticious?

mary rosenblum

No. People who read nonfiction want reality. A REAL family who suffers or succeeds thorugh the welfare system makes us think about what effect that system has on real people.

mary rosenblum

If you make it up....why should we think the system really has that effect? This is just a made up story.... a lie, to many people.

ling630

So then say if the story is about me and my family is it fiction or non fiction if I change the names?

mary rosenblum

Nonfiction if it really happened. Just think about how your family is going to react before you publish it though! LOL

gwanny

so, I can be a better writer in 10 min,,,

gwanny

if I will write in 10 minute increments?

mary rosenblum

Well, as I said, the ten minute part is just a metaphor for 'it doesn't take years'...

mary rosenblum

But what I mean by that is change your mindset...that just takes a few minutes.

mary rosenblum

Try something new this time.

mary rosenblum

Copy someone shamelessly.

mary rosenblum

I did that a LOT.

mary rosenblum

I would do my darndest to make a scene sound just like Peter Beagel, James Lee Burke, or Scott Card.

mary rosenblum

You're going to sound like yourself overall, no matter whom you copy...

mary rosenblum

BUT...by trying to emulate someone you think is good...

mary rosenblum

you will begin to unravel the techniques they used to be that good.

gwanny

By George, I believe I've got it! Ty!1

mary rosenblum

-)_

mary rosenblum

Play with your words...don't strive for a Pulitzer every time.

mary rosenblum

I still do this, even when I fully intend to publish something.

mary rosenblum

If it doesn't work...and plenty of times I"m not happy with the result...oh well, I learned something.

mary rosenblum

And I have a bunch of these little oddball stories on file...

mary rosenblum

they don't fit any market right now...

mary rosenblum

but once in awhile a new market will open up and voila! I have a place to send one.

mary rosenblum

I have a story in Modern Magic an anthology coming out soon...

mary rosenblum

that was a mainstream magic realism 'play story'...

mary rosenblum

didn't have a market for it when I finished, but had fun, liked what I did. Filed it.

mary rosenblum

A year later, this anthology opens up. Hey, it fits!

mary rosenblum

Write for yourself, don't write for the market.

mary rosenblum

You'll grow much more quickly and learning to give yourself permission to simply write something to see if you can do it this way...

mary rosenblum

will allow you to stretch your creative muscles.

mary rosenblum

Use that ten minutes to decide...

mary rosenblum

I think I want to work on a really lush, dark, visual universe.

mary rosenblum

I think I want to write a kid POV...

mary rosenblum

I think I want to try a dog POV...

mary rosenblum

I think I want to do a really bloody fight scene...

mary rosenblum

And then do it.

mary rosenblum

Not for this magazine or that one...just to see how well you can make it work.

gail

I always feel SO much better about writing after spending a forum with you, Mary. Thanx! :-D

mary rosenblum

Oooh, thanks, gail! I'm blushing!

mary rosenblum

So now you have my official permission to write stuff you have no intention of selling and have no market to sell to.,

mary rosenblum

Just file 'em when you're done. And run through that file once a year or so..

mary rosenblum

you may well be surprised at what leaps up and says 'fix this and sell me there!'.

jr souza jr

Don't forget one of the important ten minute lessons--the ten minutes it takes to print the piece, address the envelope, lick the stamp and send it out

mary rosenblum

Yes, but don't feel that you MUST send out everything you write.

mary rosenblum

That's a good way to really freeze up... (Will this editor like this? Maybe I better not do it that way').

mary rosenblum

Sending out your work is a very necessary step to success...and sending out your work over and over again is part of that process...

mary rosenblum

and the rejection slips hurt.

mary rosenblum

But sometimes it is okay to play.

mary rosenblum

Think about marketing after you write that 'risky' story.

mary rosenblum

You may well surprise yourself.

forest elf

If I have work out at a publisher that does not accept simultaneous submissions, then I don't send it to another publisher unitl publisher #1 decides. But is it okay to query an agent while the book is still with the publisher?

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, elf. That is a great time to query agents...and most agents will accept simultaneous queries, by the way.

mary rosenblum

The simultaneous rule applies only to other publishers. The publisher would rather you had an agent on board...

mary rosenblum

if they decide to take the book...that way they don't have to wait while you secure one to work on the contract.

mary rosenblum

Do realize that if you have the book with a small press publisher, you probably won't find an agent willing to handle it.

mary rosenblum

But the small press houses generally have fairly simple contracts that don't require an agent.

mary rosenblum

hang on .... agent

mary rosenblum

Woohoo...

mary rosenblum

got a good deal...hardcover and mass market paperback.

mary rosenblum

I'm thrilled.

forest elf

Should I mention to the agent that I have the book out with the publisher ... or not mention it?

mary rosenblum

Elf, DO tell your agent that you have the book in with a publisher...

mary rosenblum

tells him you're serious and you might have saved him a lot of work.

geezer

After the symposium on distance I changed my climactic scene in Lesson 10. I think it improved.

mary rosenblum

Good for you, geezer!

 

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