Forum Transcripts

Foreshadowing 10/4/05

Event start time:

Tue Oct 04 12:02:32 2005

Event end time:

Tue Oct 04 13:32:13 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all. Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a drier weekend than I did! I finished up my fall wood gathering in the serious rain. Winter has moved in early, here in the Pacific Northwest.

mary rosenblum

And I had a very close call yesterday, that I want to share, because it's something that can happen.

mary rosenblum

I have a novelette due on deadline...needs to be in to the anthology editor next week.

mary rosenblum

And I had had a lot of trouble with the story, had essentially torn it apart and started over from scratch, was delighted with the final draft.

mary rosenblum

I printed out a copy to send to my reader in Virginia.

mary rosenblum

Now I usually print out a copy for my files, but I was in a hurry to get to the PO and I didn't.

mary rosenblum

Forgot to do it later.

mary rosenblum

Later on, I saved what I thought was the final draft under the title name instead of the workign title filename

mary rosenblum

and overwrote my final draft.

mary rosenblum

I had no other electronic copies and my only hard copy was...I sincerely hoped...in Virginia.

mary rosenblum

Talk about panic!

mary rosenblum

Since I had backed up the file before I discovered my error, even my backup copies were no help.

mary rosenblum

Fortunately, my reader had the copy and is expressing it back to me.

mary rosenblum

My punishment is that I will have to type 40 pages into the computer.

mary rosenblum

I am SO happy to have that story back intact that I will smile all the way through!

mary rosenblum

But it is a lesson.

mary rosenblum

Always print out a copy. Even if you back up, even if you think you're safe, accidents can and do happen.

mary rosenblum

Okay, on to our topic today. :-) Which is foreshadowing and planting.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about foreshadowing and planting clues. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tory

WISDOM is learning from others' mistakes so we don't have to learn the hard way. Sorry for your hard lesson, Mary. Thanks for reminding us.

mary rosenblum

Well, it's easy to get a bit lax if you don't have problems and you feel you are 'safe' from accidents, tory.

mary rosenblum

Figured I might as well save someone else a similar headache.

mary rosenblum

As for foreshadowing and planting clues, this is something you do in all genres of fiction, not just in mystery...

mary rosenblum

although you certainly take it to a high level there.

tweaked

Is there a character limit on questions?

mary rosenblum

If you're using java you get cut off after a very few words, tweaked.

mary rosenblum

try typing ask/ in front of your question in the regular send bar. That allows you a longer question.

mary rosenblum

And you can always send me questions in sections. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'm sorry.../ask...

mary rosenblum

Got the slash in the wrong place!

cherley

Mary, I will be going through OR on 84 tonight.

mary rosenblum

Cool, Cherley! I'll wave at you. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you have time, stop at the Multnomah Falls rest area...it's an easy on/off for trucks and a lovely falls.

mary rosenblum

I see a lot of problems with foreshadowing and plants of both sides of the 'just right' fence in novice fiction.

mary rosenblum

Either the writer gives the climax away, or we are totally at a loss when the dramatic peak occurs or at the end.

mary rosenblum

Foreshadowing is hinting to the reader that a course of later action might take place.

mary rosenblum

Planting is the same sort of thing...you insert an item...say a weapon...or a hint that something might occur (an explosive outburst of rage) so that...

mary rosenblum

when that item or event appears the reader does not go 'huh?'.

mary rosenblum

Where did THAT come from?

janecj333

I tend to use foreshadowing to plant the idea that a character is capable of a specific act, moderate at first, and extreme in the end

mary rosenblum

Exactly jane.

mary rosenblum

It is entwined with characterization.

mary rosenblum

While you may KNOW that your character is capable, say, of an explosive outburst of rage, your reader needs to be able to see that potential...

mary rosenblum

even if you are subtle enough that the outburst itself surprises the reader.

tweaked

Right. Or the reader feels blindsided.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, tweaked.

mary rosenblum

And you can make the foreshadowing obvious, so that suspense builds as the reader expects that outburst...

mary rosenblum

while your POV is oblivious to the growing threat.

mary rosenblum

OR you can make it very subtle so that the reader discounts it or doesn't really pay attention to that clue.

mary rosenblum

But when the outburst occurs, readers remember that clue. "Oh yeah, that's right..he hinted about jail time for his temper...'

mary rosenblum

I see a lot of instances where someone seems to act out of character.

mary rosenblum

And I see instances where it is SO obvious what is going to occur that all suspense is lost and I find myself 'checking my watch'... 'How much longer until we get there?'

mary rosenblum

You use plants the same way.

mary rosenblum

If that MC is going to grab the gun off the manelpiece and shoot the brother in law in the final scene...

mary rosenblum

make sure that gun is already there!

mary rosenblum

BUT...the reverse is true...

mary rosenblum

if you put a gun on the mantelpiece in scene one...be sure someone uses it.

lore alley

I have trouble with foreshadowing. I know that I need to, and sometimes know where I should plant those hints, but not how much I should say. Is that something that you pretty much depend on readers to tell you? Or are there ways of knowing while you're writing?

mary rosenblum

Readers help, lore.

mary rosenblum

Get yourself a mystery reader. They LOOK for clues!

mary rosenblum

When I write mystery stories, I always give my stuff to a mystery reader friend. If I can keep her guessing to the end, I'm home free.

mary rosenblum

And there are ways to distract readers from those plants and foreshadowing bits...

mary rosenblum

so that you diminish their importance if you don't want to alert your reader to the climax...

mary rosenblum

and bring them in 'under the radar' so to speak.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about foreshadowing and planting clues. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tory

Mary, I've heard that before: If you put XYZ in the scene, make sure to use it (ie, the gun). But how to find the balance between using everything and maybe just some scene setting?

mary rosenblum

Well, Tory, you have to consider the importance of the object.

mary rosenblum

If that object implies violence/action/climax...ie a gun, a knife, a sheer cliff right under the deck outside the bedroom window...

mary rosenblum

then readers are going to assume you've put it there for a reason.

mary rosenblum

If that gun, knife, or sheer cliff is just landscape...use different landscape!

mary rosenblum

Use a rack of elk antlers instead of a gun to dress up the mantelpiece...

mary rosenblum

or let the MC mention that the gun is disabled and can't be fired or is a reproduction for display only.

tory

So the crystal vase on a table might just be for scene--not hitting someone over the head?

mary rosenblum

Sure.

mary rosenblum

While you can use a vase to kill someone, most of the time you do not.

mary rosenblum

While you may not use a gun to kill someone, most people don't have them lying around. :-)

tweaked

Tell me if I'm way off here. I think you should try to streamline 'foreshadowing' and 'plants' the same way you try to minimize all unnecessary elements in your writing.

mary rosenblum

It's a bit different here, tweaked, because you are minimizing them with the intention of hiding them from the reader...

mary rosenblum

because they are quite necessary...

mary rosenblum

and sometimes you are highlighting them so as to build suspense.

mary rosenblum

One way to engage your reader is to have your POV characeter oblivious to a threat that we readers perceive.

mary rosenblum

You have readers gasping 'no, don't go there!'.

tweaked

OK. I meant keep them tight.

mary rosenblum

Yes, they need to be tight, but not just because you want good writing, tweaked. :-)

mary rosenblum

You use foreshadows and plants as a tool to create plot tension and suspense.

mary rosenblum

So you vary them to create the effect you want.

mary rosenblum

Generally, you want to use the minimal number of words to the greatest effect...that is tight writing.

mary rosenblum

But you may want to use MORE words if you want that foreshadow or plant to stand out.

telcontar

I would imagine that getting the reader aware of something and leaving the POV unaware is a delicate ballance of "oooh... I know what's gonna happen next" and "man! this guy is an idiot"

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, tel!

mary rosenblum

This is very difficult to pull of without falling into 'Stupid Character Syndrome'.

mary rosenblum

I...and most readers...have very little patience with stupid characters.

mary rosenblum

It's much easier if you're using multiple POV characters in a longer work than it is in a short story.

mary rosenblum

But you can get away with a character giving subtle signs of impending trouble...

mary rosenblum

that both your reader and the POV may overlook.

mary rosenblum

Your more aware readers may note it and think 'trouble coming' and if some do not...

mary rosenblum

they'll realize the signal was there after the climax.

mary rosenblum

It's okay for the reader to go 'oh, of course, I should have seen it coming AFTER the climax.

mary rosenblum

That is usually what you're striving for.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about foreshadowing and planting clues. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tweaked

What POV works best with foreshadowing?

mary rosenblum

Third.

mary rosenblum

In first person, we know ONLY what the MC tells us...and so we either know what is going to happen because the POV does...

mary rosenblum

or we have no clue because the POV doesn't either.

mary rosenblum

You can have your MC guess... "You know, I think Betsy is hiding something. She is acting really weird...'

mary rosenblum

But that's the extent of it.

mary rosenblum

And you can still do it, but it has to be something that the POV wonders about and maybe misconstrues...

mary rosenblum

because that POV has to tell us.

mary rosenblum

Mystery is, of course, the prime example of foreshadowing and clue planting, and you can find mysteries in both first and third...

mary rosenblum

although if you look at the genre as a whole, way more mysteries are in third than first.

mary rosenblum

There's a reason for that. :-)

mary rosenblum

You can use internal POV to foreshadow...

mary rosenblum

if your character thinks about some event in the past and shies away from that thought.

mary rosenblum

You alert the reader to 'something in his/her background is relevant here'...

mary rosenblum

but you don't have to share it with the reader right then.

mary rosenblum

Or that thought or memory can be enigmatic...

mary rosenblum

something that will make sense only after your climax.

mary rosenblum

You can distract readers from clues by slipping them in as something much more obvious goes on.

mary rosenblum

Think of the sleight of hand of a magician.

mary rosenblum

In one mystery, I had to have my villain actually tell my MC about the location where he would ultimately try to kill his victim...

mary rosenblum

so that she could look for him there.

mary rosenblum

And I didn't want any readers to guess he was the perp until the end..

mary rosenblum

but if that bit of information had stood out as important, readers would have guessed instantly that he might be the villain.

mary rosenblum

(Mystery readers have eagle eyes!)

mary rosenblum

So I had him mention that in the course of a desultory conversation with the MC while was anticipating a stressful confrontation.

mary rosenblum

The upcoming confrontation SEEMED to be the important focus of the scene and her part of the conversation was absent minded...

mary rosenblum

so I managed to slip it past readers.

mary rosenblum

Later, when she thought of that place, readers could recall...'oh yeah, he said something about that secret place way back when'.

mary rosenblum

That's sleight of hand.

mary rosenblum

Slip in your clue or your plant while something much more important is going on.

mary rosenblum

If the clue is the focus of the scene, it's like turning a spotlight on it.

mary rosenblum

Melanie goes into the bedroom, opens the bedside drawer and stares at the automatic there.

mary rosenblum

Uh oh.

mary rosenblum

But if Melanie is turning the bedroom upside down looking for her lost pearls, yanks open the drawer, and thinks 'gosh, I forgot Jonathon left that there when he moved out, oh lord, what if I can't find those pearls...

mary rosenblum

and finding those pearls is REALLY important, readers will skim right over Jonathan's gun.

mary rosenblum

But it'll be there when she needs it.

mary rosenblum

Believe me, sometimes you craft a scene specifically to bury a clue. :-)

mary rosenblum

That doesn't mean the scene should have no other purpose...

mary rosenblum

it should still obey the rule of three...

mary rosenblum

but you set it up and shape it so that you can slip that clue in.

lore alley

I read a story once which was overall very well done, but the author set one of the MC's up to be very different than what he ended up being. Up until the end the plants seemed to foreshadow some supernatural event that never happened. I was disgusted!

mary rosenblum

Without having read it, lore, I would guess that it was a case of poor characterization...it's easy to create a plot puppet...

mary rosenblum

that does exactly what the plot calls for.

mary rosenblum

And that's the result.

geezer

Rule of three?

mary rosenblum

The Rule of Three is what I call the rule for 'A Good Scene'.

mary rosenblum

A good scene should:

mary rosenblum

1. Advance the plot

mary rosenblum

2. Deepen the characterization

mary rosenblum

3. Enrich the world (setting).

mary rosenblum

You can include backstory in the 'enrich the world' aspect of scene.

mary rosenblum

You CAN get away with two out of three (I wouldn't)...but if your scene only does one of the three...work on it.

mary rosenblum

So if you create a scene in order to plant a clue or foreshadow an event, make sure that scene obeys that rule of three or...

mary rosenblum

readers will see right through it. (Oh, you only put that there to let us see the gun on the mantelpiece!)

mary rosenblum

I catch those all the time.

mary rosenblum

Unless you want your readers to realize that this is a clue, then do not make it the central event in the scene.

mary rosenblum

Make something else the central event of the scene and the clue just sort of happens also.

mary rosenblum

Dialogue is a great way to foreshadow.

mary rosenblum

People give themselves away or lie and we notice it.

mary rosenblum

Hmmm...something's wrong here. What?

mary rosenblum

Later on when that character does something unexpected, we remember...

mary rosenblum

oh yeah. He was lying when he said that, I remember now.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about foreshadowing and planting clues. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Where it really counts is in the ending.

mary rosenblum

An ending begins with the start of the story...

mary rosenblum

and it needs to derive from what has been revealed by the story.

mary rosenblum

If the ending comes out of nowhere....Superman flies in and saves the day...

mary rosenblum

this is what is known as a deus ex machina end...

mary rosenblum

named after the Greek plays where a god or goddess swooped down on cables to rescue the hero or heroine in the final scene.

mary rosenblum

Not very satisfying to the reader.

mary rosenblum

If the cavalry is going to arrive in the final scene, we need to see them on the road somewhere, first.

mary rosenblum

And again...

mary rosenblum

distraction is the name of the game..

mary rosenblum

If you want that cavalry to arrive for the end, make the reader think they cannot.

mary rosenblum

A river is flooding, they are bogged down in mud and a week away..

mary rosenblum

you can give a logical explanation of how they DID make it after the fact.

mary rosenblum

Just make sure it's a plausible explanation!

tweaked

I hate those endings. It's as if the author was running out of pages and just wanted to end the story.

mary rosenblum

Or more likely couldn't figure out how to end it, tweaked!

mary rosenblum

reunited, you can type /ask in front of your whole question in your regular send bar...

mary rosenblum

that way you can ask a longer one.

reunited96

So what you're trying to say is that it's like starting at

reunited96

the end and working back to the beginning?

mary rosenblum

It can be...

mary rosenblum

It's one way to make sure your end works...or to figure out why your end is NOT working.

mary rosenblum

And often, I plot that way.

mary rosenblum

I'm doing that now, plotting my next novel.

mary rosenblum

I started with my end.

mary rosenblum

I know where I want to end up. Now how will my characters take us there?

mary rosenblum

So I've been working from back to front and front to back simultaneously. :-)

tweaked

Like one of Steven Covey's Seven Habits. "Begin with the end in mind."

mary rosenblum

Now that is one way to do it, not the ONLY way.

mary rosenblum

You can start and see where your plot takes you...

mary rosenblum

but the end needs to derive from what has gone before.

mary rosenblum

Myself, I usually know what I want to make happen...

mary rosenblum

so I often work backward, planning events that will lead my characters to the climax I want to achieve.

mary rosenblum

It's all a matter of what works for you.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if you are someone who has to create the story from beginning to end, that's fine.

gail

Does foreshadowing always need to be "accurate?" By this I mean, when writing a mystery and building up to the murder, when I'm laying the groundwork of characters and motives, will all my characterizational foreshadowing have to bear fruit of some kind later on? (I hope this question makes sense to you.)

mary rosenblum

It does, Gail.

mary rosenblum

Actually, in mystery, you do a lot of false foreshadowing.

mary rosenblum

You want the reader to suspect someone else.

mary rosenblum

Or say you have a villain in mind and you want to surprise the reader with that person's real nature at the end...

mary rosenblum

you may seem to foreshadow someone else's bad behavior...

mary rosenblum

and then use our expectations to keep your real perp hidden.

mary rosenblum

You can use reader expectations against them. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you give a character a few unsavory characteristics, readers think, 'oh, not a nice person'...

mary rosenblum

and they sort of keep their attention on this person...

mary rosenblum

while your real 'not nice' person behaves very blandly.

mary rosenblum

Stereotypes can be useful tools...

mary rosenblum

No, you do not want to create stereotypes as characters...

mary rosenblum

but if you give your character a couple of 'stereotype' characteristics...

mary rosenblum

your reader will fill in all the blanks...and missread the character's real nature until you reveal it.

lore alley

That works well in limited third where your POV has preconceived notions about another character that we slowly realize aren't true.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, lore.

mary rosenblum

And it can work in first, where your POV seems unlikeable...

mary rosenblum

and we slowly realize this person isn't polite, but has a solid core of integrity.

mary rosenblum

But that's a tightrope to walk, since you can turn off your reader, too.

mary rosenblum

I read one...and I'm blanking on the title, so don't ask...it'll come to me eventually, sigh...that was like that.

mary rosenblum

It was by a well known writer and actually a VERY good book (I loaned it and it never came back to me)...

mary rosenblum

but the MC was pretty hard to take. He just wasn't likeable.

mary rosenblum

And he turned out to be a very strong character with a lot of admirable qualities, but I had a hard time staying with the book long enough to discover that...

mary rosenblum

and it did not sell well at all.

mary rosenblum

Too bad.

telcontar

like the doctor in House... he's a jerk, no bedside manner whatsoever... but he does his job and takes the risks no one else is willing to take, and ends up saving lives...

mary rosenblum

I'm not familiar with House, but that sounds like what I mean, tel.

gail

I'm also considering situations that, on the surface, seem either treacherous or benign through foreshadowing. I've had some real thrill rides reading books that contrasted my expectations.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, gail.

mary rosenblum

That's what 'sleight of hand' is all about..

mary rosenblum

it is about leading readers to expect something other than what happens...

mary rosenblum

so that you gain that element of surprise.

mary rosenblum

BUT you must have hidden clues so that they can look back and go 'I should have seen that'.

mary rosenblum

But of course, they were so sure they knew where you were going, they did not.

gail

This is one of the most difficult critiques to offer a writer, too -- I didn't like the MC. Ouch! :-(

mary rosenblum

But it's an important one, gail.

mary rosenblum

I have used a lot of negative characters in my fiction...

mary rosenblum

and they have to be likeable enough to hold readers even if that reader doesn't love them.

mary rosenblum

It's a fine line to walk.

mary rosenblum

And if you fall over into 'I can't stand him', the writer needs to know it..

mary rosenblum

but try to include a 'why', too.

mary rosenblum

Since you may not be the reader that writer is speaking to.

mary rosenblum

Ah..

mary rosenblum

remembered the book!

mary rosenblum

It was by Martin Cruz Smith, author of Gorky Park.

mary rosenblum

Title is 'Rose'.

mary rosenblum

But if you look at Smith's books, including Gorky Park, none of his characters are warm and cuddly. :-)

mary rosenblum

This one was seriously not.

janecj333

I do think that some authors write with blinders on, not aware that a mc with a single obvious perversion will ruin the story for his reader if that character is foisted on us as normal

mary rosenblum

That's well said, Jane.

mary rosenblum

One of the the dividing lines, in my opinion, between a pro and amateur writer...

mary rosenblum

is a broader awareness of the wide range of people who will read your book.

mary rosenblum

If you write for your clones, you have a very limited audience of people who think and feel just as you do.

mary rosenblum

But one of the reasons you learn craft is to make that character and situation accessible to someone who is not like you...does not think nor see the world the way you do.

mary rosenblum

What is obvious to you will not be obvious to many readers.

mary rosenblum

Part of craft is learning out to reach the universals beyond the immediate traits..

mary rosenblum

so that someone a reader might not really be comfortable with in real life is human and familiar enough to engage the reader in spite of his/her original reaction.

mary rosenblum

That is skill.

mary rosenblum

If your attitude is 'my way or the highway' even if it's unconscious at this stage...

mary rosenblum

you are really writing for yourself, not for readers.

mary rosenblum

And we all write for ourselves when we begin.

mary rosenblum

Elizabeth Lynn, a fantasy writer, once said at a workshop that everybody writes for themselves for a period when they begin...

mary rosenblum

and it is when you really begin to write for others that you become a pro.

mary rosenblum

And I think she's right.

mary rosenblum

And sometimes you publish the work you write for yourself. :-)

mary rosenblum

I published a lot of work while I was still really writing for myself... :-)

mary rosenblum

One of the things that foreshadowing and planting does is to make those character actions accessible to those readers who are not you.

mary rosenblum

While a character's behavior may seem perfectly obvious to you...

mary rosenblum

readers really do not know that character as well as you do, no matter what your skill level in characterization.

mary rosenblum

And you need to give enough clues that even the people who have misread your character a bit can see the 'why' of the story's high points.

mary rosenblum

REaders are always a valuble tool here.

mary rosenblum

I cannot tell, even now, if I have balanced my clues and foreshadowing well enough.

mary rosenblum

I really have to have reader input...and I am WAY better at this than I was ten years ago!

janecj333

Would you say you were one of the lucky ones, paid while not yet an 'expert' at your craft?

mary rosenblum

Well, she says immodestly, I'm not sure it's luck. I was writing well enough and my stories had a wide enough appeal that I sold them...

mary rosenblum

but it took me awhile to really write for story rather than address issues of personal interest to me.

mary rosenblum

I got some very nice awards and award nominations for those stories, too. :-)

mary rosenblum

They are simply stronger, now.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

lore alley

What if you are wrting a book that you want to sell as part of a series, and the later books deal with bigger issues than the first one. Is it good to plant a lot of hints of that later conflict that might not even show up in the first book?

mary rosenblum

No, it really isn't, Lore.

mary rosenblum

The editor who considers this book is looking at THIS book..

mary rosenblum

a lot of 'better story yet to come' just make editors wait for THAT book.

mary rosenblum

If your readers love this book, they'll buy the next one without any enticement.

mary rosenblum

Work on making THIS book dynamite and connecting with readers.

mary rosenblum

Readers are loyal. If they like your work, they buy your work.

mary rosenblum

A couple of hints are fine...

mary rosenblum

but not enough to be really obvious.

mary rosenblum

Well, I'll post the transcript in the usual place: Writing Craft ...Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all, and do drop in her tomorrow...

mary rosenblum

same time same place for our casual chat...no 'question', we just get together and talk writing.

mary rosenblum

See you then!

 

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