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mary rosenblum
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Hello all.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you had a great weekend
and are enjoying the season. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I'm having a hard time
realizing that Thanksgiving is nearly upon us...at least down here in the
states.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about endings
today....not just for all your NaNo writrers out there...
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mary rosenblum
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who are by now well into the
middle of your novel draft and rapidly approaching the point where you do
have to know your end...
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mary rosenblum
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but for all of you writing
short OR long who have had that story where you simply couldn't figure out
how to end it.
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kungfumama
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Mary can you also touch upon the
difference between a hard ending and a soft ending? Thanks.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it depends on what you
mean by 'hard' and 'soft' Kung.
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mary rosenblum
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Do you mean an ending where
everything is tied up neatly as opposed to one where events clearly will be
resolved later?
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geezer
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That's why outlining is good
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mary rosenblum
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Well, geeze, it is and it
isn't. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know how many stories
I outlined or summarized only to find that my ending was quite different
than the one I had originally envisioned.
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kungfumama
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Yes, that fits.
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mary rosenblum
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That's always a question...how
much can you leave hanging...especially if you want a sequel. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And actually, the two comments
are related...because the reason an 'outlined' ending changes...and how
much you need to 'tie up'...
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mary rosenblum
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have the same root.
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mary rosenblum
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They both depend on the real
central conflict.
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mary rosenblum
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That is what needs to be
resolved...and what happens at times is that as you write yoru story...
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mary rosenblum
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and as you get to know your
main character(s) better...you discover that the conflict you thought was
central...
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mary rosenblum
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to the story is eclipsed by
another conflict, perhaps an internal one.
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mary rosenblum
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And so you are really writing
a slightly different story and that different conflict requires a different
ending in order to bring the piece closure.
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mary rosenblum
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It is the only conflict that
you really should resolve in order for the book or story to work for
readers.
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mary rosenblum
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You can have other conflicts
that don't get resolved and certainly readers will hunger for the sequel...
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mary rosenblum
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but they'll be pretty
satisfied if the main conflict comes to closure.
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mary rosenblum
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It's also why you may suddenly
find that your story end feels flat.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good indication that
you have a central conflict that you haven't spotted yet and therefore
haven't addressed.
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mary rosenblum
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I just had that happen wiht a
YA novella I was writing under contract that was simply flat.
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mary rosenblum
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I finally realized I had
implied a much stronger conflict than the central conflict I was focusing
on and as soon as I changed the focus the story worked just fine.
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mary rosenblum
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You are very close to your
story as you write it, and that old adage about 'can't see the forest for
the trees' is an apt one.
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mary rosenblum
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It is often hard to look
beyond what you have planned and see that the larger picture has changed
when you're eyebrow deep in the scenes.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, if your end feels
flat or isn't working for you, you need to take a look at your central
conflict and the story as a whole.
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mary rosenblum
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You're very likely missing a
more powerful conflict that needs to be resolved.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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paminnapa
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My ending has changed at least 3
times as I get further in the story.
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mary rosenblum
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That's not surprising, pam.
YOu're working on a novel draft, as I recall. Novel is a big story and...
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mary rosenblum
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most of the time, we don't
know the story completely until we have created all the characters fully.
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mary rosenblum
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I have always said that I know
what the story is about when I finish the first draft...usually.
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mary rosenblum
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Often strong secondary
characters evolve and bring their own agendas into the story which can skew
your central conflict. This is not a bad thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Fiction is an organic thing
that tends to change and grow as you write it. :-) That's the fun of it for
me...
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mary rosenblum
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discovering the REAL story.
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mary rosenblum
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The longer the story, the more
likely your story is to change..and the more likely it is that you will
need to alter your ending.
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mary rosenblum
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Most of you have probably read
Jack London's To Build A Fire in school at some point.
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mary rosenblum
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His original ending had the
man saved at the end. An editor told him to change it to the current one
where the man dies.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes it takes an outside
pair of eyes to see where the real power in a story lies. :-)
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cosmos
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So much is happening that is
unexpected in my nano novel that it is surprising. How do you identify all
the conflicts? Another thing that's happening is I find my characters are
becoming stronger and going in different directions than I had planned.
They want out of their box so I'll letting them go but the story is taking
on a life of its own. I'm not sure it can be straightened out until a
second draft. My goal is to just reach the nano goal. Sure is a great
argument for outlining though.
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mary rosenblum
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Right now, with a deadline to
finish that first draft, I'd just let the story run, cosmos. What you will
probably discover...
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mary rosenblum
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is that you will have to
really consider what you have for draft two and decide what your central
conflict is.
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mary rosenblum
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You may have to simply delete
some character issues from the ms if they detract from the story's
direction.
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mary rosenblum
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Tell 'em you'll give 'em their
own novel and save them in an 'extra character' file.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that while real
characters who come to life on the page are wonderful, the novel DOES need
to have direction and focus...
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mary rosenblum
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and too many 'real' characters
going in their own directions can really obscure any power your story
possesses.
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mary rosenblum
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You ARE in control of this
story, not your characters.
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mary rosenblum
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And it can be difficult to
remove those characters who have become real to you once they are woven
into the story...
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mary rosenblum
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and that IS a good arguement
for doing some rough outlining first.
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mary rosenblum
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At this point, after having done
a lot of this 'character removal' I'm very quick to realize when a
secondary character wants to get 'too strong'...
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mary rosenblum
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for a novel. At that point I
decide whether adding this character's agenda will strengthen the ultimate
story or harm it...
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mary rosenblum
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and if 'harm it' is the
answer, that character stops right there.
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mary rosenblum
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But often it WILL strengthen
it, and then my plot changes and usually my end does, too.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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paminnapa
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When submitting a novel to an
editor can you send 2 endings and let them decide what works best?
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mary rosenblum
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Unlikely, pam. Maybe after
you've worked with an editor, if you're going to propose a new novel, you
can ask the editor for an opinion...
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mary rosenblum
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but as a first time submitting
author it's really your job to tell the editor you know how to do this...
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mary rosenblum
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and editors are NOT writers.
That's why they are editors. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Writing is YOUR job. Fixing
your writing is THEIR job.
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mary rosenblum
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What you CAN do is to write
both endings and give the book to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask THEM which ending they
prefer.
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mary rosenblum
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I would never send out a work
of fiction without giving it to more than one reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers see things you can't.
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mary rosenblum
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We know our stories WAY too
well.
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mary rosenblum
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Quite often, if you're well
into the middle of your story and it starts to stall, the problem is the
end.
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mary rosenblum
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You are having trouble seeing
a way from here to there that builds to your climax.
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mary rosenblum
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And that can be an indication
that the end you thought you needed is no longer the right end.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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kungfumama
|
Doesn't the genre of the story
dictate the type of ending you need - at least to some degree?
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mary rosenblum
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Not usually. Maybe if you're
writing category romance with is VERY forumlaic...
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mary rosenblum
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uh..formulaic...
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mary rosenblum
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But in the rest of the genre
spectrum, any ending that works is fine.
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mary rosenblum
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That doesn't mean that all
types of endings are equally easy to do.
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mary rosenblum
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A downbeat ending, for
example, is much more acceptable in horror than it is in say, mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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It is harder to pull off a
downbeat ending in that mystery that is powerful enough to work in spite of
reader expectations of an upbeat end.
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mary rosenblum
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Not impossible...just harder.
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mary rosenblum
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Nothing in fiction is really
verboten...as long as it works.
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mary rosenblum
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That does not mean just
because you CAN do something that you will be successful when you try it.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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You CAN make five POV
characters work in a short story, but it is HARD to do.
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curseofthe44
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What if you just do not have
that "perfect" ending and you are on a tight deadline?
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mary rosenblum
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Curse, that is where you
really sweat and where the hard work of being a writer comes in. It is not
enough to turn in something bad on deadline.
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mary rosenblum
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It hurts you. It hurts your
career. You bust your creative butt to find an ending that works.
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mary rosenblum
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I just faced that with that YA
novella...10,000 words on deadline. I got it in with about two weeks to
spare. THat is WAY closer than I like to work.
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janecj333
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I sometimes worry that endings
which are action-packed feel superficial to the reader, who wanted a more
thoughtful resolution. My endings tend to result in at least one person's
death, if not more, and now I'm tending away from that for that very reason.
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mary rosenblum
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It entirely depends on the
nature of your story, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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If your story provides food
for thought, if you are making your readers think, then your ending should
probably reflect that tone.
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mary rosenblum
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You might have to resolve some
subplots earlier so that you don't have to rush through a bunch of
end-tying scenes at the close.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you're, say, writing a
nice exciting piece of space opera, an action-packed western, and you're
mostly working on a fun, escape-read, that action packed end is probably
just right.
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janpittard
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What process do you use to get
there?
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mary rosenblum
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To get where, jan?
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mary rosenblum
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to the end that works?
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janpittard
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Sorry, was in response to
working your creative butt off to
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janpittard
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find the ending
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mary rosenblum
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That's what I thought...just
making sure. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If I'm really stuck...if I
can't see what I need to see...I give the story to readers whom I know are
going to...
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mary rosenblum
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be hard on the plot.
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mary rosenblum
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I have several in my 'reader
stable'.
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mary rosenblum
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They're very good at telling
me what they don't find in the story...
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mary rosenblum
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and that often gives me that
flash of 'I see what is missing' that connects for me.
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mary rosenblum
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Or I may simply try switching
POV or changing gender...
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mary rosenblum
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just to see if I can uncover
the missing angle.
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mary rosenblum
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Or missing conflict.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers can't usually tell me
how to fix the story, but the points they make about what doesn't work for
them usually sends me in the right direction and jogs loose that 'stuck'
contemplation.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to know your
readers' strengths
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pook
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How exact does the ending in
True Crime have to be?
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mary rosenblum
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From what I know of True
Crime, it's rather loosely based on the truth, but I gather that it does
have to ...
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mary rosenblum
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turn out the way the real
crime it's based on did.
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mary rosenblum
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You can probably stretch that
quite a bit in many directions, though.
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pook
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Suppose they don't know who did
it?
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mary rosenblum
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If nobody went to trial, you
can't do that, but you could certainly make up the real culprit here.
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pook
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Or you think they got the wrong
man?
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mary rosenblum
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That, too. Apparently you can
play pretty fast and loose with reality as long as you're not using real
names. 'Based on' are the key words here.
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janecj333
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Of course, if the villain
deserves to die in the end, I try to have him the agent of his own demise.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a satisfying way to do
it. But of course, if your character dispatches that villain, then your
character has to deal with his/her own reaction to killing this person.
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janecj333
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And that end should grow
organically out of the wrong that the villain committed...irony in fiction,
I hope, sheds amazing light on the real world
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mary rosenblum
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It does, but the end does not
always have to grown only from the wrong that the villain committed.
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mary rosenblum
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It can also grow from the
imbalances in the main character.
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paja
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How do you know an ending does
not work?
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mary rosenblum
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That feeling can come from
you, paja...it's usually me who doesn't like my endings...
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mary rosenblum
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but it can come from readers
and is more likely to when you are first starting out.
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mary rosenblum
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You give your story to readers
and if several tell you the end felt 'flat', it probably needs a new look.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course you ask they WHY
it felt flat!
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
gwanny
|
Do you have different readers
for different genres...I know you write several different genres...or are
they the same folks for each ms?
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mary rosenblum
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They overlap, gwanny. IN
general, non SF readers don't do a good job of critiquing SF because they
have trouble with the technology.
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mary rosenblum
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But for non SF work, my
readers overlap quite a bit. Each one does something particularly well. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Pam, I don't know why your
/ask isn't working....
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mary rosenblum
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Let me put your question into
the transcript.
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mary rosenblum
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Pam asked how I found honest
readers, that her friends mostly pat her back and don't give feedback.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually this chat room is a
great place to find good readers, Pam.
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mary rosenblum
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You need people who are also
writing. They should be at your level of craft at least...
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mary rosenblum
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and then they can tell you if
your characterization is weak or your scene is slow or your ending feels
flat.
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mary rosenblum
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People who don't writer really
do not know what to say.
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mary rosenblum
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You have to understand a bit
about the mechanics of prose before you can comment on how well they work.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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We pros mostly use each other
as readers. :-) We're all in the same boat...we need good readers.
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geezer
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Any feel for how much technology
is tolerable in a non-SF novel?
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mary rosenblum
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AS much as you can make
comprehensible without bogging down the story, geeze.
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mary rosenblum
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Crighton sells as a
'mainstream' author, but some of his science thrillers are pretty
technical.
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pook
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Should you have readers before
sending in an assignment?
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mary rosenblum
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It will certainly help you
send in a stronger assignment, pook, but that's out job as instructor, too.
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mary rosenblum
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We are your readers..
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mary rosenblum
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That's what we're doing when
we crit your assignments...acting as very experienced readers.
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mary rosenblum
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We're certainly not Engligh
teachers correcting your mistakes.
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kungfumama
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is there an LRWG bulletin board
where people can look for volunteer readers?
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mary rosenblum
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You can post in writing
buddies if you don't mind making your email address public, kungfu.
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mary rosenblum
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It's in the Post A Note
section.
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mary rosenblum
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And you can always post a time
when you'll create a private room here on the chat site...
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mary rosenblum
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and invite anybody looking for
a critque group to join you at that time.
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mary rosenblum
|
That's a good way to meet
fellow writers looking for readers.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
AS you swap with people, keep
track of what they do well...or not.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Some readers simply won't
'get' what you write.
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mary rosenblum
|
Others will see plot problems
and never question your characters.
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mary rosenblum
|
Others will focus on your
characterization and miss gaping plot holes. :-)
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cosmos
|
Thanks so much, Mary. I found
and worked out the answer for my ending for my nano novel today in your
forum. The questions people brought up helped to send me in the right
direction. You're terrific.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, super, cosmos! I'm so glad
it worked for you.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes just talking about
your story can inspire you with the 'right' ending.
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bengalrose
|
mary, lately i find that the
"science" in my stories is taking a back seat...more color than
hard science...and just enough to set the feel of the world. I wonder if
this is keeping my work from being published by the main SF mags.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that probably describes
most of my SF, bengal. :-) And since I'm one of the top ten authors
published by Asimov's magazine, I think I am solid proof that it's not. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It certainly suggests that
Stan Schmidt at Analog may not buy from you.
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bengalrose
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OK...must be me ;-) I'll just
keep plunking away.
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly it's a matter of
finding the story that hooks THAT editor's attention.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that as a new writer
you have NOTHING to offer that editor.
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mary rosenblum
|
But editors want your work if
you're going to evolve into a serious new SF writer.
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mary rosenblum
|
So they watch you...yes even
when you get form rejections...
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mary rosenblum
|
and if you keep getting
better, if you keep submitting...sooner or later they figure they'd...
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mary rosenblum
|
better grab you before someone
else gets that first sale loyalty.
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mary rosenblum
|
That's why you keep submitting
to editors who reject you...as long as your work fits their magazine.
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mary rosenblum
|
Every editor knows your name
before he or she buys your first story, don't worry. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
And yes, sometimes they even
talk about you.
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mary rosenblum
|
To other editors at
conferences.
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gwanny
|
Mary do you ever come up with
the ending first and then write your story toward that end?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, sure, gwanny. Quite often
actually.
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mary rosenblum
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And I've started with a middle
more than a few times, too. :-)
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janecj333
|
bengalrose, Asimov's must get
thousands of submissions every month, and publishes maybe eight? it's a
matter of very bad odds...however, they got a new editor not too long ago whose
taste is less dystopic that the previous editor
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mary rosenblum
|
You mean Sheila. :-)
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Yes, Sheila does have a streak
of romance in her. :-)
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curseofthe44
|
You are referring to novel
writing, yes? Surely, short story writers are so overabundant that your
name couldn't come up among editors.
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mary rosenblum
|
Oh, no, mostly I'm talking
about short story, curse...we short writers submit way more often than
novel writers. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Remember, you all...yes,
Asimov's gets say 1000 subs in a month.
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mary rosenblum
|
But you know what?
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mary rosenblum
|
940 of those are awful.
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mary rosenblum
|
No kidding.
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mary rosenblum
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REALLY awful.
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mary rosenblum
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So you are only competing with
say, sixty.
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mary rosenblum
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And only say half of those are
published pros.
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mary rosenblum
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So the odds are a LOT better
than you think, and yes, editors do remember your names.
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bengalrose
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Something better go my way soon
or I'll have to start pinning rejections to another wall! ;-)
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mary rosenblum
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Hey, much more interesting
than boring wallpaper.
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janecj333
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that's good to know :) gives me
hope
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mary rosenblum
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That's the thing that you
don't realize when you're starting out.
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mary rosenblum
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You tend to think everybody is
at your level.
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mary rosenblum
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Ha.
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mary rosenblum
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I suspect that everybody here
is going to be in the top ten percent of the slush pile.
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mary rosenblum
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Anybody with a printer send
stuff to magazines...really inappropriate and awful stuff.
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kungfumama
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yippee! I actually stand a
chance, then.
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mary rosenblum
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You really do.
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mary rosenblum
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I was told this by Orson Scott
Card, way back when I was in the Clarion Writers Workshop...
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mary rosenblum
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but it wasn't until I got to
know editors personally that I realized how true it is...
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mary rosenblum
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the number of unpublished
writers submitting decent material is so small...
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mary rosenblum
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that your name does get known
before you publish.
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mary rosenblum
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You're actually in a pretty
small pool, once you are writing something publishable for this magazine.
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curseofthe44
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I'm sorry to be the negative one
here, but the slush pile is still the slush pile. The top ten of nothing is
still...umm...nothing?
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mary rosenblum
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Yea, curse, but competing
against maybe fifteen or twenty other people gives a lot more hope than if
you think you're competing against a thousand.
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bengalrose
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Top 10% eh....now, how to get to
the top 1%, that is the question! Ha!
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mary rosenblum
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Thats' where 'getting better'
matters, bengal. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And I will tell you something
that will help you. Don't do what other people are doing.
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mary rosenblum
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Try a new slant.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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janecj333
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is this covered under 'write
what you want, what is important to you?'
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mary rosenblum
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Yep.
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gwanny
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Mary, do you give your readers
one chapter ar a time or wait until the entire ms is complete?
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mary rosenblum
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I swap full ms, gwanny. For
me, personally, I am not looking for feedback on craft issues at the level
of scene mechanics. I'm looking for feedback on larger issues of plot and
characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't line edit for other
pros and they don't line edit for me.
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mary rosenblum
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Now with students, a chapter
by chapter approach works better...
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mary rosenblum
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since there, I'm looking at
scene-level mechanics.
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mary rosenblum
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Prose quality, pacing,
characterization, scene dynamics.
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curseofthe44
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Sorry, again, but how does one
really know if there are only 15 or 20 and not a thousand? If one presumes
a thousand, then wouldn't that make you work that much harder?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can believe what makes you
happy curse. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I only know what editors tell
me and what I've seen myself of large circulation magazine slush piles.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, competing against
twenty or a hundred is hard enough.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu still have to be BETTER than
those people or THEY will get the open slots.
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mary rosenblum
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So anyway...to sum up our
ending discussion... :-)...
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mary rosenblum
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Before we run out of time...
If you find you're having trouble finding an ending that works...
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mary rosenblum
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or you or your trusted readers
feel that it is flat....
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mary rosenblum
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try looking at your central
conflict. Is it REALLY the central conflict?
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mary rosenblum
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Is there something larger here
that is out of balance that needs to be resolved?
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mary rosenblum
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Has your conflict actually
changed since you began the first scene?
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mary rosenblum
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Are you perhaps using the
wrong main character? What if you use another character as your main POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Generally the fix for your end
is going to come from the front of the novel.
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mary rosenblum
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Try giving it to your readers
with no ending and ask them to guess how it ends. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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See what THEY think needs to
be resolved.
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mary rosenblum
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Any last questions before we
end our Oregon Hour?
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mary rosenblum
|
Again, my hat is off to all of
you doing the Nano challenge. :-)
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paja
|
Thanks Mary
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curseofthe44
|
Thanks, Mary for the terrific
insight. As always, you provide us with hopeful solutions to our writing
dilemmas.
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mary rosenblum
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You know, curse, I have to say
that for the most part, people who can't NOT write, end up published. They
just don't have enough common sense to quit and do something else...
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mary rosenblum
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and if you keep writing and
striving to get better...you do.
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janecj333
|
mary, you've given us lots of
food for thought, today...
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mary rosenblum
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Well have fun with those
endings.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes mucking about in the
front of the story reveals a whole new powerful story you didn't realize
was there.
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curseofthe44
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Well, I don't have any common
sense...
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mary rosenblum
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Well, there you go, curse.
Just keep writing, submitting, and getting better and you'll get there. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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See you all for our casual
chat tomorrow.
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mary rosenblum
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same time same place.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcript
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good day, all!
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