Forum Transcripts

Endings: Finding Their Beginning 11/15/05

Event start time:

Tue Nov 15 12:04:46 2005

Event end time:

Tue Nov 15 13:31:01 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all.

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great weekend and are enjoying the season. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'm having a hard time realizing that Thanksgiving is nearly upon us...at least down here in the states.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about endings today....not just for all your NaNo writrers out there...

mary rosenblum

who are by now well into the middle of your novel draft and rapidly approaching the point where you do have to know your end...

mary rosenblum

but for all of you writing short OR long who have had that story where you simply couldn't figure out how to end it.

kungfumama

Mary can you also touch upon the difference between a hard ending and a soft ending? Thanks.

mary rosenblum

Well, it depends on what you mean by 'hard' and 'soft' Kung.

mary rosenblum

Do you mean an ending where everything is tied up neatly as opposed to one where events clearly will be resolved later?

geezer

That's why outlining is good

mary rosenblum

Well, geeze, it is and it isn't. :-)

mary rosenblum

I don't know how many stories I outlined or summarized only to find that my ending was quite different than the one I had originally envisioned.

kungfumama

Yes, that fits.

mary rosenblum

That's always a question...how much can you leave hanging...especially if you want a sequel. :-)

mary rosenblum

And actually, the two comments are related...because the reason an 'outlined' ending changes...and how much you need to 'tie up'...

mary rosenblum

have the same root.

mary rosenblum

They both depend on the real central conflict.

mary rosenblum

That is what needs to be resolved...and what happens at times is that as you write yoru story...

mary rosenblum

and as you get to know your main character(s) better...you discover that the conflict you thought was central...

mary rosenblum

to the story is eclipsed by another conflict, perhaps an internal one.

mary rosenblum

And so you are really writing a slightly different story and that different conflict requires a different ending in order to bring the piece closure.

mary rosenblum

It is the only conflict that you really should resolve in order for the book or story to work for readers.

mary rosenblum

You can have other conflicts that don't get resolved and certainly readers will hunger for the sequel...

mary rosenblum

but they'll be pretty satisfied if the main conflict comes to closure.

mary rosenblum

It's also why you may suddenly find that your story end feels flat.

mary rosenblum

It's a good indication that you have a central conflict that you haven't spotted yet and therefore haven't addressed.

mary rosenblum

I just had that happen wiht a YA novella I was writing under contract that was simply flat.

mary rosenblum

I finally realized I had implied a much stronger conflict than the central conflict I was focusing on and as soon as I changed the focus the story worked just fine.

mary rosenblum

You are very close to your story as you write it, and that old adage about 'can't see the forest for the trees' is an apt one.

mary rosenblum

It is often hard to look beyond what you have planned and see that the larger picture has changed when you're eyebrow deep in the scenes.

mary rosenblum

Generally, if your end feels flat or isn't working for you, you need to take a look at your central conflict and the story as a whole.

mary rosenblum

You're very likely missing a more powerful conflict that needs to be resolved.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

paminnapa

My ending has changed at least 3 times as I get further in the story.

mary rosenblum

That's not surprising, pam. YOu're working on a novel draft, as I recall. Novel is a big story and...

mary rosenblum

most of the time, we don't know the story completely until we have created all the characters fully.

mary rosenblum

I have always said that I know what the story is about when I finish the first draft...usually.

mary rosenblum

Often strong secondary characters evolve and bring their own agendas into the story which can skew your central conflict. This is not a bad thing.

mary rosenblum

Fiction is an organic thing that tends to change and grow as you write it. :-) That's the fun of it for me...

mary rosenblum

discovering the REAL story.

mary rosenblum

The longer the story, the more likely your story is to change..and the more likely it is that you will need to alter your ending.

mary rosenblum

Most of you have probably read Jack London's To Build A Fire in school at some point.

mary rosenblum

His original ending had the man saved at the end. An editor told him to change it to the current one where the man dies.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes it takes an outside pair of eyes to see where the real power in a story lies. :-)

cosmos

So much is happening that is unexpected in my nano novel that it is surprising. How do you identify all the conflicts? Another thing that's happening is I find my characters are becoming stronger and going in different directions than I had planned. They want out of their box so I'll letting them go but the story is taking on a life of its own. I'm not sure it can be straightened out until a second draft. My goal is to just reach the nano goal. Sure is a great argument for outlining though.

mary rosenblum

Right now, with a deadline to finish that first draft, I'd just let the story run, cosmos. What you will probably discover...

mary rosenblum

is that you will have to really consider what you have for draft two and decide what your central conflict is.

mary rosenblum

You may have to simply delete some character issues from the ms if they detract from the story's direction.

mary rosenblum

Tell 'em you'll give 'em their own novel and save them in an 'extra character' file.

mary rosenblum

Remember that while real characters who come to life on the page are wonderful, the novel DOES need to have direction and focus...

mary rosenblum

and too many 'real' characters going in their own directions can really obscure any power your story possesses.

mary rosenblum

You ARE in control of this story, not your characters.

mary rosenblum

And it can be difficult to remove those characters who have become real to you once they are woven into the story...

mary rosenblum

and that IS a good arguement for doing some rough outlining first.

mary rosenblum

At this point, after having done a lot of this 'character removal' I'm very quick to realize when a secondary character wants to get 'too strong'...

mary rosenblum

for a novel. At that point I decide whether adding this character's agenda will strengthen the ultimate story or harm it...

mary rosenblum

and if 'harm it' is the answer, that character stops right there.

mary rosenblum

But often it WILL strengthen it, and then my plot changes and usually my end does, too.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

paminnapa

When submitting a novel to an editor can you send 2 endings and let them decide what works best?

mary rosenblum

Unlikely, pam. Maybe after you've worked with an editor, if you're going to propose a new novel, you can ask the editor for an opinion...

mary rosenblum

but as a first time submitting author it's really your job to tell the editor you know how to do this...

mary rosenblum

and editors are NOT writers. That's why they are editors. :-)

mary rosenblum

Writing is YOUR job. Fixing your writing is THEIR job.

mary rosenblum

What you CAN do is to write both endings and give the book to readers.

mary rosenblum

Ask THEM which ending they prefer.

mary rosenblum

I would never send out a work of fiction without giving it to more than one reader.

mary rosenblum

Readers see things you can't.

mary rosenblum

We know our stories WAY too well.

mary rosenblum

Quite often, if you're well into the middle of your story and it starts to stall, the problem is the end.

mary rosenblum

You are having trouble seeing a way from here to there that builds to your climax.

mary rosenblum

And that can be an indication that the end you thought you needed is no longer the right end.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

kungfumama

Doesn't the genre of the story dictate the type of ending you need - at least to some degree?

mary rosenblum

Not usually. Maybe if you're writing category romance with is VERY forumlaic...

mary rosenblum

uh..formulaic...

mary rosenblum

But in the rest of the genre spectrum, any ending that works is fine.

mary rosenblum

That doesn't mean that all types of endings are equally easy to do.

mary rosenblum

A downbeat ending, for example, is much more acceptable in horror than it is in say, mystery.

mary rosenblum

It is harder to pull off a downbeat ending in that mystery that is powerful enough to work in spite of reader expectations of an upbeat end.

mary rosenblum

Not impossible...just harder.

mary rosenblum

Nothing in fiction is really verboten...as long as it works.

mary rosenblum

That does not mean just because you CAN do something that you will be successful when you try it. :-)

mary rosenblum

You CAN make five POV characters work in a short story, but it is HARD to do.

curseofthe44

What if you just do not have that "perfect" ending and you are on a tight deadline?

mary rosenblum

Curse, that is where you really sweat and where the hard work of being a writer comes in. It is not enough to turn in something bad on deadline.

mary rosenblum

It hurts you. It hurts your career. You bust your creative butt to find an ending that works.

mary rosenblum

I just faced that with that YA novella...10,000 words on deadline. I got it in with about two weeks to spare. THat is WAY closer than I like to work.

janecj333

I sometimes worry that endings which are action-packed feel superficial to the reader, who wanted a more thoughtful resolution. My endings tend to result in at least one person's death, if not more, and now I'm tending away from that for that very reason.

mary rosenblum

It entirely depends on the nature of your story, jane.

mary rosenblum

If your story provides food for thought, if you are making your readers think, then your ending should probably reflect that tone.

mary rosenblum

You might have to resolve some subplots earlier so that you don't have to rush through a bunch of end-tying scenes at the close.

mary rosenblum

But if you're, say, writing a nice exciting piece of space opera, an action-packed western, and you're mostly working on a fun, escape-read, that action packed end is probably just right.

janpittard

What process do you use to get there?

mary rosenblum

To get where, jan?

mary rosenblum

to the end that works?

janpittard

Sorry, was in response to working your creative butt off to

janpittard

find the ending

mary rosenblum

That's what I thought...just making sure. :-)

mary rosenblum

If I'm really stuck...if I can't see what I need to see...I give the story to readers whom I know are going to...

mary rosenblum

be hard on the plot.

mary rosenblum

I have several in my 'reader stable'.

mary rosenblum

They're very good at telling me what they don't find in the story...

mary rosenblum

and that often gives me that flash of 'I see what is missing' that connects for me.

mary rosenblum

Or I may simply try switching POV or changing gender...

mary rosenblum

just to see if I can uncover the missing angle.

mary rosenblum

Or missing conflict.

mary rosenblum

Readers can't usually tell me how to fix the story, but the points they make about what doesn't work for them usually sends me in the right direction and jogs loose that 'stuck' contemplation.

mary rosenblum

It's a good idea to know your readers' strengths

pook

How exact does the ending in True Crime have to be?

mary rosenblum

From what I know of True Crime, it's rather loosely based on the truth, but I gather that it does have to ...

mary rosenblum

turn out the way the real crime it's based on did.

mary rosenblum

You can probably stretch that quite a bit in many directions, though.

pook

Suppose they don't know who did it?

mary rosenblum

If nobody went to trial, you can't do that, but you could certainly make up the real culprit here.

pook

Or you think they got the wrong man?

mary rosenblum

That, too. Apparently you can play pretty fast and loose with reality as long as you're not using real names. 'Based on' are the key words here.

janecj333

Of course, if the villain deserves to die in the end, I try to have him the agent of his own demise.

mary rosenblum

That's a satisfying way to do it. But of course, if your character dispatches that villain, then your character has to deal with his/her own reaction to killing this person.

janecj333

And that end should grow organically out of the wrong that the villain committed...irony in fiction, I hope, sheds amazing light on the real world

mary rosenblum

It does, but the end does not always have to grown only from the wrong that the villain committed.

mary rosenblum

It can also grow from the imbalances in the main character.

paja

How do you know an ending does not work?

mary rosenblum

That feeling can come from you, paja...it's usually me who doesn't like my endings...

mary rosenblum

but it can come from readers and is more likely to when you are first starting out.

mary rosenblum

You give your story to readers and if several tell you the end felt 'flat', it probably needs a new look.

mary rosenblum

And of course you ask they WHY it felt flat!

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

gwanny

Do you have different readers for different genres...I know you write several different genres...or are they the same folks for each ms?

mary rosenblum

They overlap, gwanny. IN general, non SF readers don't do a good job of critiquing SF because they have trouble with the technology.

mary rosenblum

But for non SF work, my readers overlap quite a bit. Each one does something particularly well. :-)

mary rosenblum

Pam, I don't know why your /ask isn't working....

mary rosenblum

Let me put your question into the transcript.

mary rosenblum

Pam asked how I found honest readers, that her friends mostly pat her back and don't give feedback.

mary rosenblum

Actually this chat room is a great place to find good readers, Pam.

mary rosenblum

You need people who are also writing. They should be at your level of craft at least...

mary rosenblum

and then they can tell you if your characterization is weak or your scene is slow or your ending feels flat.

mary rosenblum

People who don't writer really do not know what to say.

mary rosenblum

You have to understand a bit about the mechanics of prose before you can comment on how well they work. :-)

mary rosenblum

We pros mostly use each other as readers. :-) We're all in the same boat...we need good readers.

geezer

Any feel for how much technology is tolerable in a non-SF novel?

mary rosenblum

AS much as you can make comprehensible without bogging down the story, geeze.

mary rosenblum

Crighton sells as a 'mainstream' author, but some of his science thrillers are pretty technical.

pook

Should you have readers before sending in an assignment?

mary rosenblum

It will certainly help you send in a stronger assignment, pook, but that's out job as instructor, too.

mary rosenblum

We are your readers..

mary rosenblum

That's what we're doing when we crit your assignments...acting as very experienced readers.

mary rosenblum

We're certainly not Engligh teachers correcting your mistakes.

kungfumama

is there an LRWG bulletin board where people can look for volunteer readers?

mary rosenblum

You can post in writing buddies if you don't mind making your email address public, kungfu.

mary rosenblum

It's in the Post A Note section.

mary rosenblum

And you can always post a time when you'll create a private room here on the chat site...

mary rosenblum

and invite anybody looking for a critque group to join you at that time.

mary rosenblum

That's a good way to meet fellow writers looking for readers.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

AS you swap with people, keep track of what they do well...or not.

mary rosenblum

Some readers simply won't 'get' what you write.

mary rosenblum

Others will see plot problems and never question your characters.

mary rosenblum

Others will focus on your characterization and miss gaping plot holes. :-)

cosmos

Thanks so much, Mary. I found and worked out the answer for my ending for my nano novel today in your forum. The questions people brought up helped to send me in the right direction. You're terrific.

mary rosenblum

Oh, super, cosmos! I'm so glad it worked for you.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes just talking about your story can inspire you with the 'right' ending.

bengalrose

mary, lately i find that the "science" in my stories is taking a back seat...more color than hard science...and just enough to set the feel of the world. I wonder if this is keeping my work from being published by the main SF mags.

mary rosenblum

Well, that probably describes most of my SF, bengal. :-) And since I'm one of the top ten authors published by Asimov's magazine, I think I am solid proof that it's not. :-)

mary rosenblum

It certainly suggests that Stan Schmidt at Analog may not buy from you.

bengalrose

OK...must be me ;-) I'll just keep plunking away.

mary rosenblum

Mostly it's a matter of finding the story that hooks THAT editor's attention.

mary rosenblum

Remember that as a new writer you have NOTHING to offer that editor.

mary rosenblum

But editors want your work if you're going to evolve into a serious new SF writer.

mary rosenblum

So they watch you...yes even when you get form rejections...

mary rosenblum

and if you keep getting better, if you keep submitting...sooner or later they figure they'd...

mary rosenblum

better grab you before someone else gets that first sale loyalty.

mary rosenblum

That's why you keep submitting to editors who reject you...as long as your work fits their magazine.

mary rosenblum

Every editor knows your name before he or she buys your first story, don't worry. :-)

mary rosenblum

And yes, sometimes they even talk about you.

mary rosenblum

To other editors at conferences.

gwanny

Mary do you ever come up with the ending first and then write your story toward that end?

mary rosenblum

Oh, sure, gwanny. Quite often actually.

mary rosenblum

And I've started with a middle more than a few times, too. :-)

janecj333

bengalrose, Asimov's must get thousands of submissions every month, and publishes maybe eight? it's a matter of very bad odds...however, they got a new editor not too long ago whose taste is less dystopic that the previous editor

mary rosenblum

You mean Sheila. :-)

mary rosenblum

Yes, Sheila does have a streak of romance in her. :-)

curseofthe44

You are referring to novel writing, yes? Surely, short story writers are so overabundant that your name couldn't come up among editors.

mary rosenblum

Oh, no, mostly I'm talking about short story, curse...we short writers submit way more often than novel writers. :-)

mary rosenblum

Remember, you all...yes, Asimov's gets say 1000 subs in a month.

mary rosenblum

But you know what?

mary rosenblum

940 of those are awful.

mary rosenblum

No kidding.

mary rosenblum

REALLY awful.

mary rosenblum

So you are only competing with say, sixty.

mary rosenblum

And only say half of those are published pros.

mary rosenblum

So the odds are a LOT better than you think, and yes, editors do remember your names.

bengalrose

Something better go my way soon or I'll have to start pinning rejections to another wall! ;-)

mary rosenblum

Hey, much more interesting than boring wallpaper.

janecj333

that's good to know :) gives me hope

mary rosenblum

That's the thing that you don't realize when you're starting out.

mary rosenblum

You tend to think everybody is at your level.

mary rosenblum

Ha.

mary rosenblum

I suspect that everybody here is going to be in the top ten percent of the slush pile.

mary rosenblum

Anybody with a printer send stuff to magazines...really inappropriate and awful stuff.

kungfumama

yippee! I actually stand a chance, then.

mary rosenblum

You really do.

mary rosenblum

I was told this by Orson Scott Card, way back when I was in the Clarion Writers Workshop...

mary rosenblum

but it wasn't until I got to know editors personally that I realized how true it is...

mary rosenblum

the number of unpublished writers submitting decent material is so small...

mary rosenblum

that your name does get known before you publish.

mary rosenblum

You're actually in a pretty small pool, once you are writing something publishable for this magazine.

curseofthe44

I'm sorry to be the negative one here, but the slush pile is still the slush pile. The top ten of nothing is still...umm...nothing?

mary rosenblum

Yea, curse, but competing against maybe fifteen or twenty other people gives a lot more hope than if you think you're competing against a thousand.

bengalrose

Top 10% eh....now, how to get to the top 1%, that is the question! Ha!

mary rosenblum

Thats' where 'getting better' matters, bengal. :-)

mary rosenblum

And I will tell you something that will help you. Don't do what other people are doing.

mary rosenblum

Try a new slant.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re talking about ends today. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

janecj333

is this covered under 'write what you want, what is important to you?'

mary rosenblum

Yep.

gwanny

Mary, do you give your readers one chapter ar a time or wait until the entire ms is complete?

mary rosenblum

I swap full ms, gwanny. For me, personally, I am not looking for feedback on craft issues at the level of scene mechanics. I'm looking for feedback on larger issues of plot and characterization.

mary rosenblum

I don't line edit for other pros and they don't line edit for me.

mary rosenblum

Now with students, a chapter by chapter approach works better...

mary rosenblum

since there, I'm looking at scene-level mechanics.

mary rosenblum

Prose quality, pacing, characterization, scene dynamics.

curseofthe44

Sorry, again, but how does one really know if there are only 15 or 20 and not a thousand? If one presumes a thousand, then wouldn't that make you work that much harder?

mary rosenblum

YOu can believe what makes you happy curse. :-)

mary rosenblum

I only know what editors tell me and what I've seen myself of large circulation magazine slush piles.

mary rosenblum

Believe me, competing against twenty or a hundred is hard enough.

mary rosenblum

YOu still have to be BETTER than those people or THEY will get the open slots.

mary rosenblum

So anyway...to sum up our ending discussion... :-)...

mary rosenblum

Before we run out of time... If you find you're having trouble finding an ending that works...

mary rosenblum

or you or your trusted readers feel that it is flat....

mary rosenblum

try looking at your central conflict. Is it REALLY the central conflict?

mary rosenblum

Is there something larger here that is out of balance that needs to be resolved?

mary rosenblum

Has your conflict actually changed since you began the first scene?

mary rosenblum

Are you perhaps using the wrong main character? What if you use another character as your main POV?

mary rosenblum

Generally the fix for your end is going to come from the front of the novel.

mary rosenblum

Try giving it to your readers with no ending and ask them to guess how it ends. :-)

mary rosenblum

See what THEY think needs to be resolved.

mary rosenblum

Any last questions before we end our Oregon Hour?

mary rosenblum

Again, my hat is off to all of you doing the Nano challenge. :-)

paja

Thanks Mary

curseofthe44

Thanks, Mary for the terrific insight. As always, you provide us with hopeful solutions to our writing dilemmas.

mary rosenblum

You know, curse, I have to say that for the most part, people who can't NOT write, end up published. They just don't have enough common sense to quit and do something else...

mary rosenblum

and if you keep writing and striving to get better...you do.

janecj333

mary, you've given us lots of food for thought, today...

mary rosenblum

Well have fun with those endings.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes mucking about in the front of the story reveals a whole new powerful story you didn't realize was there.

curseofthe44

Well, I don't have any common sense...

mary rosenblum

Well, there you go, curse. Just keep writing, submitting, and getting better and you'll get there. :-)

mary rosenblum

See you all for our casual chat tomorrow.

mary rosenblum

same time same place.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcript

mary rosenblum

Have a good day, all!

 

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