Forum Transcripts

Embedding the Backstory: Interactive Example 6/25/04

Event start time:

Fri Jun 25 19:03:14 2004

Event end time:

Fri Jun 25 20:39:34 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all! I hope you've had a good week, and lots of good words.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

For those of you who write Romance...a new short Romance market has just opened...

mary rosenblum

and although it's not paying much, there are very few markets for short Romance.

mary rosenblum

It's posted in New Markets: Wax Romantic.

mary rosenblum

Please use the private message feature if you want to chat with other people in the auditorium. Too much chat fills up the screen and gives slower readers trouble. Thanks!

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk a bit about back story tonight.

mary rosenblum

I run into a lot of similar starts in stories by novice writers.

mary rosenblum

Often they begin with a strong action hook...

mary rosenblum

but then they go into a page or two or more of a description of the setting, the various people, what they have been doing, and so forth.

mary rosenblum

This is actually a novel start...which is where most new writers learn it!

mary rosenblum

When you begin a novel, you do not generally begin with the plot.

mary rosenblum

Instead, you usually begin with a scene that sets up the story, the setting, the people and leads into the first event of the plot.

mary rosenblum

That front serves as sort of a basis of comparison for the rising tension and changes of the ongoing plot..it is a taking off point.

mary rosenblum

But in short fiction, you really don't have room for that first taking off point...

mary rosenblum

so you usually dive right into the plot.

mary rosenblum

Even a good hook opening can get stalled to a flat halt by a page of 'back story' before the plot gets rolling.

mary rosenblum

The most common and the most effective at totally stopping the forward momentum is the author's lengthy...

mary rosenblum

description of the character! Totally violates Point of View for one thing!

mary rosenblum

As a SF writer, where I not only have to set the scene on page one and introduce the characters, but also create the entire universe...I have learned to do this kind of set up very effectively.

mary rosenblum

And it is not particularly difficult, it just takes some thought.

mary rosenblum

As novice writers, most of us come up with the opening scene right away, no problem.

mary rosenblum

It's later on in the story where we bog down. :-)

mary rosenblum

But it is a good idea to spend a fair amount of time deciding if this is REALLY where you want to begin.

mary rosenblum

The more details you need to give to your reader in order for the reader to really get into the story, the more action that hook scene needs to have and the stronger it needs to be.

mary rosenblum

You can load quite a bit of detail into a scene if the ongoing action rivets the reader's attention to the page.

mary rosenblum

If your character is sitting in a train staring at boring landscape, a three page monology about his life with Mom is gonna drive the reader right on to the next story!

mary rosenblum

So will a two page narrative monologue about the politics of the country and the economics that are sending him on this trip.

mary rosenblum

But if your character is doing something to hold our attention, say searching for a bear in a dark barn, or building a house, or creeping through the junle with an AK47...

mary rosenblum

we can find out a lot and we won't feel the story is lagging.

mary rosenblum

If your world is unusual -- unfamiliar to most readers, say a Tibetan market -- or you are writing fantasy or SF...

mary rosenblum

you need to ask yourself which details will give you the most 'bang for your buck' as you set the scene.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

You can't get them all in.

mary rosenblum

But the thing that saves us, is that readers are willing to take a promissory note.

mary rosenblum

Give us one spaceship detail. Okay, the reader thinks. Spaceship. Show me more, pretty soon...

mary rosenblum

And so you, the writer, drop a couple of more details in, and then another, and another as the characters do what they are doing.

mary rosenblum

And pretty soon, we have a pretty complete picture of the space ship.

mary rosenblum

Do this with backstory, too.

mary rosenblum

Our character is getting sold to someone. Okay, what's the story here? What culture is this?

mary rosenblum

We get another detail a sentence or so later, a couple more as one character talks to another. Slowly, the society we've created begins to take shape in the reader's mind.

mary rosenblum

So do you just start your story and later plaster in these details? Well, you can. But a better idea is to start with the details.

mary rosenblum

Ask yourself what your reader needs to know right away in order for things to make some sort of sense.

mary rosenblum

Alternate Earth. Aztecs rule southern half of the Americas, Vikings the north.

mary rosenblum

Okay, we have to let the reader know this right away...so how do we start the story so we can get that in?

mary rosenblum

How about a market place? Two characters are trading, one is Aztec, another is the Viking.

mary rosenblum

And we see something or find out something that sets us on the North American continent.

mary rosenblum

We're all set with a basic when/where, and we can add more details as we go.

mary rosenblum

The more you get feedback from readers, the more you will get a feel for just how little you can give a reader and still have that reader get your world more or less right.

mary rosenblum

You'd be amazed at how few details you need.

mary rosenblum

But they need to be important details.

doodledorry

Okay--are there any rules about when names of people need to be announced or can that happen in the skiem of things--as long as it doesn't throw the reader off

mary rosenblum

If they are main characters, doodle, you need to name them soon. Like in the first paragraph or so when they appear.

mary rosenblum

Minor characters can be named later, but if we get used to seeing 'the old man' tottering about...

mary rosenblum

and he is suddenly Nathaniel, a lot of readers will see two people there, rather than one.

mary rosenblum

It is a good idea, as a general rule of thumb, to give a character's name pretty quickly, unless he is just a spear carrier.

shoutjoy

a stormy night, broken down car, lady in distress, dark man on white stallion, secluded mansion.. would you read it? teehee

mary rosenblum

Well, not if you presented it like that, shout! LOL...But you could get all those details in within two paragraphs and yep, that would be a nice start.

doodledorry

so as long as it is clear and obvious as to who is who

mary rosenblum

Yes, it is, doodle. ;-)

starlighttraveler

How do you spot new trends in writing?

mary rosenblum

Starlight, it's darn hard to spot if you depend on the published material.

mary rosenblum

Short fiction shows up 6 months to more than a year after it is purchased...

mary rosenblum

and by the time a book hits the bookshelf, you're talking two years or more.

mary rosenblum

You want to be at the front of the next trend, not in the rearguard. :-)

mary rosenblum

So instead of trying to figure out what's selling and write that...

mary rosenblum

figure out what isn't out there that might be popular and writeTHAT.

mary rosenblum

Your guess is as good as anyone's. :-)

mary rosenblum

But you can certainly look at who is reading and what is selling.

mary rosenblum

You really cannot predict what is going to be hot in fiction. Lots of people...myself included...would LOVE to.

timtassinari

Is it okay to just write what you feel and not care whats popular?

mary rosenblum

tim that is a question that writers argue about endlessly at conferences. The answer is sort of yes, no.

mary rosenblum

Realistically, there are some types of books that sell well. Romance for example. But writing something that you do not enjoy and do not read is difficult, even if you are a pro with a lot of writing experience.

mary rosenblum

You can certainly get a sense of whether the idea you want to write about is marketable.

mary rosenblum

A Harry Potter clone is not going to sell right now, so if that's what you want to write, you need to prepare yourself for rejeciton...or find something else you want to write.

mary rosenblum

But writing 'for pay' is an exercise in depression. It is a hard way to make very few dollars.

mary rosenblum

Write what you want. Write it well. You'll probably make as much money as you would targeting a market and you'll have a LOT more fun.

timtassinari

Is it true that funny never goes out of style?

mary rosenblum

You bet. It is rare.

owlybear

Is it best tto start with some sort of action scene..not necessarily extreme action, just some kind of action...

mary rosenblum

Yes, owly it is. It doesn't have to be a fight scene or chase scene. Mom setting the table is enough...

mary rosenblum

if we see the house, the black-draped photo of her dead husband, the meticulously kept house...

mary rosenblum

We can have quite a sense of her life by the time Son arrives for Sunday dinner with his new wife.

speckledorf

So back story is just like character motivation...a part of the ice berg that we chip off a piece and insert here...another piece there and so...at least in longer work?

mary rosenblum

Moreso in a shorter work, speck. There you really have to drop tiny granules in. ;-) You can drop in bigger chunks in the novel.

doodledorry

so stand at a bookstore counter and listen to what people ask for but the store doesn't have?

mary rosenblum

Well, doodle, I would look at what people are reading now...say urban mysteries... and think what those readers might enjoy that is different.

mary rosenblum

Maybe mysteries set in another country? Rural villages? Try that.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

timtassinari

Funny is rare? or it going out of style is rare?

mary rosenblum

Humor is rare, tim. Most editors love to find it.

ducky

Wanna know why Sci-Fi never goes out of style?... Because...

ducky

Life is not only stranger than you think, it is stranger...

ducky

than you can imagine <--that's a quote

mary rosenblum

Well, that works backward, too, ducky. Reality is never an excuse for fiction. :-)

timtassinari

My kids tell me what they want to hear about and I write that... They like it...Maybe I have a good barometer? LOL

mary rosenblum

They are probably excellent barometers. :-) And good first readers, too.

timtassinari

Do more women than men buy books? I would assume that to be true if romance sells so well :)

mary rosenblum

Depends on the genre, tim.

mary rosenblum

LOTS of women buy Romance. It is the largest selling genre and is bought the way people buy snacks!

mary rosenblum

But in mystery, more men buy, except in the cozy subgenre, and there, you have a huge overlap with Romance readers. ;-)

mary rosenblum

SF is more young male readers...20s...but with a reasonable number of boomer men...not many women readers, alas.

mary rosenblum

Fantasy has a big audience in young adult/teen male readers.

mary rosenblum

Lots of girls in highschool age group.

mary rosenblum

Thriller is predominantly male..

mary rosenblum

Well, I've covered a few.

timtassinari

Well, I couldnt write romance unless it was hilarious, like most of my romances have been. Will Funny Romance sell?

mary rosenblum

Go read my transcript of Janet Wellington's interview, tim. We were talking about different Romance subgenres and what sells.

mary rosenblum

I can't remember what she said about humor, but yes, I gather it has its place.

mitch

How soon in the story do you typically add conflict?

mary rosenblum

In a short story you should try really really hard to get it...or at least the foreshadow of it..into the very first scene, mitch.

mary rosenblum

The very first paragraph is even better.

mary rosenblum

Even a hint that 'something isn't right' is good.

mary rosenblum

If your conflict doesn't show up until somewhere on page two, maybe you should rethink your start.

mary rosenblum

Let's do a little interactive back story embedding here.

mary rosenblum

Give me a setting and I'll see if I can't come up with a good strong opening that shows us that setting.

mary rosenblum

Or gives us the backstory of the people, culture, what have you.

speckledorf

Outdoor cafe

mary rosenblum

Okay. Outdoor cafe. What city?

paja

It's raining

mary rosenblum

okay, rain. You all are making this too easy. :-)

paja

Wheaton Illinois

ducky

Amsterdam

timtassinari

IN New Orleans

dbamarsha

Des Moines, Iowa

mary rosenblum

Hmmm...well, for me, it's gonna have to be Amsterdam or New'alins. Let's pick Amsterdam, although my details will be stereotypical without reasearch.

speckledorf

Small country town...

info

city on the moon

mary rosenblum

Ah, more choices. Hmmm outdoor cafe on the moon means a dome. :-)

mary rosenblum

Okay tell me what we need to know about the character?

mary rosenblum

What do I have to show the reader?

ducky

He's a drug dealer

info

rich girl

mary rosenblum

How about a rich drug dealing girl.

mitch

He's suicidal

mary rosenblum

Only she's a she.

speckledorf

a runaway...lost and alone

mary rosenblum

Hmmm...well, we can't do both this and dealer, but since this is Amsterdam, I don't know how many dealer are around...pretty open policy on hard drugs.

paja

she had trouble w/Mom and still sucks her thumb

mary rosenblum

Okay, this is good. We have outdoor cafe, Amsterdam, a runaway who is thinnking of suicide, sucks her thumb...physical attributes folks? Young girl, remember.

ducky

Make it like the Warren Zevon song...

ducky

..."Send lawyers, guns, and money"...

mary rosenblum

LOL One of my favorite songs, ducky!

info

red head

timtassinari

Red shoes?

mary rosenblum

Red head, young, red shoes.

info

maybe 16ish

speckledorf

looks like a boy...often mistaken for one?

mitch

She has scabies, long hair, and warm brown eyes

mary rosenblum

If you mean the vitamin deficiency, mitch, I'd have to look up the symptoms!

janp

Thin to the point of skinny

paja

spiked hair

mary rosenblum

Okay, let's see how many of these we can get in here.

timtassinari

a sad story, in amsterdam red shoes and 16 means bad family backround...

mary rosenblum

Ah, but she's not Dutch, she's American.

mary rosenblum

So what must the reader know here...we may not be able to get all the physical attributes into an opening.

mary rosenblum

City, place, her mood, some details of her appearance, her origin, her condition -- runaway.

timtassinari

That was a movie with bridgett fonda ;)

mary rosenblum

The Red Shoes? That name rings a bell.

mary rosenblum

Okay...let me think here. Talk about performance art, whew!

mary rosenblum

She slouched sideways as the shade from the umbrella inched across the table, her eyes on the filthy water of the canal. A condom floated by like a limp, decaying fish. Just step off ...

mary rosenblum

Do it after dark, when everyone was in the restaurants. Who would notice? She shoved her fingers into the stiff spikes of her hair as the waiter drifted closer.

mary rosenblum

Picked up her beer glass and made a face at him as she took a sip. It was warm as spit. He wasn't going to go away this time, said something to her in Dutch. She shrugged, stood.

mary rosenblum

No more money. Should have stolen one of Mom's cards. She crossed between the tables, feeling eyes on her...

mary rosenblum

disapproving of her hair, her grimy dress that sort of just covered her butt.

mary rosenblum

Walked over to the canal and looked down. Just do it.

mary rosenblum

She imagined the soggy paper, limp condoms brushing up against her mouth as she went in, gagged as the smell of dead fish filled her nostrils. Turned and hurried away..

mary rosenblum

out onto the street full of cars and bikes and fat people with pale hair, no place to go, no place to go back to.

timtassinari

So the hook is that she is american...?

mary rosenblum

I didn't really get that in. I could have had her think about the Manhattan apartment and finding the plane tickets, but figured the scene would get too heavy with details.

mary rosenblum

You generally have to leave some out. But we can find out in a minute here.

timtassinari

I just closed the book.. ewww LOL

mary rosenblum

This is definitely a dark scene! You folks gave me the suicidal remember!

timtassinari

Then she wants attention, not really to die?

mary rosenblum

Aha...that's a question isn't it? Something to keep the reader wondering. Not bad enough to down in a filthy canal, evidently. :-)

ducky

...up to her and speaks in English "is she available?"

mary rosenblum

That would make a great next scene, ducky. She could end up telling him about New York, running away, stealing tickets from her mom...

mary rosenblum

Great lead in to the main plot.

mary rosenblum

But this is a scene were a lot of action is not going on...just enough to keep us moving as the waiter pressures her to leave and she crosses the cafe to glance at the canal and leave.

mary rosenblum

It is a start that is VERY thick with setting and back story, but still moves forward.

bud

possibly pregnant?

mary rosenblum

Good one, bud. I could have had her nearly lose her lunch when the smell hit her and think about how she hated feeling like this...

mary rosenblum

and it was his fault.

mary rosenblum

Actually, this technique...of using a lot of character thought...is a great way to give the reader back story if you keep the character doing something and if it is a short scene.

mary rosenblum

My 'pacing bell' was going off as she heads for the street. To me, it was time to have her go interact with something or someone...like ducky's man.

mitch

She will run into a new character of influence?

mary rosenblum

That could happen. Or she could get picked up by an Amsterdam cop who feels sorry for her, lets her go, and maybe gives her a card with an address...tells her it's a place to sleep...

mary rosenblum

and she goes there and meets a strange and crazy woman. :-)

paja

Is this how one could develop a plot--just keep finding out what happens next?

mary rosenblum

Yes, you can do that. It's how I plot most of my stories, even if I know where I want to go...

mary rosenblum

but I usually do this in my head. Much easier to change things as the story starts to take off. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, I use a lot of notes, too.

timtassinari

I got that she wanted to be saved, not to die if she's jumping into a canal

mary rosenblum

Yeah, I didn't think she seriously wanted to kill herself. She took instant shape in my mind as a rather self centered girl who could stand to grow up a bit. :-)

coway

on my short for book, it's got a critical plot, but I use character's doubts about herself and feelings on what's happening in her thoughts as plot moves forward,,,but wonder if it moves forward fast enough?But the thoughts in themselves are supsenseful, so would that help?

mary rosenblum

Character thought is a very useful tool, but like most tools, too much is too much.

mary rosenblum

I tended to use it too much when I first began publishing. I use it a lot less now, but I've learned from experience that I can give the reader less information and they still get where I want 'em to get. :-)

mary rosenblum

Much of improving, in writing, is learing how to do more with less...

mary rosenblum

and learning the abilities of your readers, as well as their limits.

mary rosenblum

Every individual is going to get or not get different things...

mary rosenblum

but as a large group, they tend to act consistently.

mary rosenblum

So you will constantly get better at giving them just the details to help them share your world.

mary rosenblum

On the average, I would say that I write about 2000 words less per story than I did when I was first publishing.

bud

what age group would a story like this be suitable for?

mary rosenblum

Well, we don't have much to go on yet, but I'd say it would be for high school age to adult.

mary rosenblum

A lot of HS age YA is VERY dark and very realistic.

mary rosenblum

I don't think it would work for the 10 - 13 year market.

mary rosenblum

It feels too dark to me for that group.

mary rosenblum

But that is how you craft that kind of scene.

mary rosenblum

Let me give you my thought process as I did it.

mary rosenblum

Readers want to know where we are...immediately. So I put her in the shade of the table umbrella...that puts us in some kind of outdoor cafe/restaurant for most readers.

mary rosenblum

When she sees that filthy canal, some readers will get Netherlands, some not, add more later.

mary rosenblum

Next she thinks about drowning herself after dark. Who would notice? That tells us her state of mind. She shoves her fingers into her spiked hair, so we see young, punk, probably dressed in black...

mary rosenblum

Waiter's hazing tells us no money, should have stolen Mom's card --runaway...

mary rosenblum

Now if this was an actual story..

mary rosenblum

I'd add a few more beats in my second draft.

bud

could have been Venice.

mary rosenblum

Yep, which is why I had the waiter speak in Dutch, not English...

mary rosenblum

and I figure she'll give us Amsterdam as she leaves the cafe and does something else.

mary rosenblum

Readers are patient.

mary rosenblum

you can hand them piece after piece of the puzzle...

mary rosenblum

and as long as you keep handing them those pieces, they'll keep assembling the puzzle.

mary rosenblum

Your job is hand them the right pieces, so that the picture goes together quickly.

ducky

"The Amsterdam cop saw her..."

mary rosenblum

That would work, but it's not her POV...in her thought.

mary rosenblum

She might think, Darn Amsterdam cops. Couldn't let anyone alone... Of course she wouldn't use darn! LOL

ducky

I guess that comes in a different scene. :-)

mary rosenblum

That's the next scene, when the cop starts to arrest her...she steals fruit from a vendor!...and then sends her off to our crazy lady.

ducky

You can reveal location in one sentence...

mary rosenblum

Yes, but the sentence has to fit the POV, ducky.

mary rosenblum

Working on my feet, so to speak, I couldn't think of a reason for this depressed, suicidal, self centered kid to think about being in Amsterdam! Believe me, I tried!

ducky

Yeah, I know. I was waaay on down the road with the story.

mary rosenblum

Oh, it's fun, isn't it? I just finished doing one like this. Start at point and see where you end up!

ducky

Amsterdam has legal drugs.

mary rosenblum

That's why I didn't make her a drug dealer. :-)

ducky

And legal prostitution

mary rosenblum

Which is why someone could walk up to her and ask, on the street. Which would be a fun scene, actuallyu.

mitch

She's smoking a joint, looking at the red light district

mary rosenblum

That might give her a reason to think Amsterdam...it still shocks her to see pot on the street everywhere. So she'd think something about 'this Amsterdam was too strange' or something like that.

paja

She sees the cop and his uniform, Amsterdam, danged Amstterdam, I wanted to die in Brussels.

mary rosenblum

That could do it.

mitch

considering a new career

mary rosenblum

yep. And these are all ways to 'show' the reader what is going on without using your author narrative voice.

mary rosenblum

See? All it takes is some thought about...how do I get this across?

mary rosenblum

And you can set up a scene to give out all kinds of information without a single word in your narrative voice.

mary rosenblum

That's why it is a very good idea to begin by thinking about what the reader MUST know in that first scene...

mary rosenblum

before you commit yourself to a particular scene.

ducky

It's the "writer's law" - SHOW, don't TELL

mary rosenblum

exactly, ducky. And that law takes MANY forms...

mary rosenblum

it's not just about describing action.

janp

She had no choice. The ticket was for Amsterdam...good aplace as any

mary rosenblum

That would fit neatly with her thought about stealing plane tickets from Mom. :-)

mary rosenblum

ANd of course, by the time you get to the end of the story, you probably need to put in a few details that weren't important when you began...

mary rosenblum

but need to be there now. That's the process I'm in right now...fixing the beginning to fit the end. :-)

owlybear

she couldn't go anywhere else with no money..

mary rosenblum

Exactly, owly.

paja

Mom never wanted to go anyplace fun. Now she can have her honeymoon with that creep in the Bronx.

speckledorf

Mom's live in boyfriend tried to get friendly with her and mom didn't believer her...

mary rosenblum

And these are what I'd call 'secondary details'./ They amplfy the basics in scene one here...

mary rosenblum

and they need to come in soon, but we can put them off until she has someone to talk to...

mary rosenblum

and is willing to spill all this

mary rosenblum

This is the triage thing...which details to we need NOW and what can we hand the reader in a minute.

mary rosenblum

We can start knowing she's a runaway NOW, and find out why shortly.

janp

need a very unlikely character to befriend her

bud

someone like the crazy old woman?

mary rosenblum

Yep...her...she was a Paris prostitute and now sort of takes in girls. Quite a character...

mary rosenblum

This was fun!

coway

so far teacher has read various assignment types: mild fiction about whacky friend, article, not adventerous fiction story, science fiction, and now I'm sending her my first action/triller story will she feel I'm jumping too much?

mary rosenblum

Well, I don't know how your instructor feels, coway, but I am always delighted when my students try lots of different things.

mary rosenblum

How do you know what works for you if you don't experiment?

owlybear

This was great..sure makes you think of how you can make a story progress.. excellent forum...

mary rosenblum

I'm glad, owly.

mary rosenblum

A lot of times an actual example is easier to understand than a lecture. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, I'll post the transcripts at Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Do drop by the chat room here on Sunday for our usual casual chat.

mary rosenblum

Same time as the Forum tonight, same place.

coway

the action/triller was a horrble written flash fiction written in l999 that I found and re-wrote and took new slant on

mary rosenblum

good for you, coway!

janp

Do we have to wait for the next chapter? I want to know the resolution...:-)

mary rosenblum

I'm laughing. I think you should all write this story! The versions will be a lot of fun and very different!

mary rosenblum

WEe you all Sunday!

mary rosenblum

uh..SEE you all Sunday!

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend!

mary rosenblum

Go play in Amsterdam. :-)

janp

You too

mary rosenblum

After I get back from the near future, jan!

mary rosenblum

Good night, all!

 

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