Forum Transcripts

Digging Deeper: Backstory 4/26/05

Event start time:

Tue Apr 26 12:03:44 2005

Event end time:

Tue Apr 26 13:38:52 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and this morning we're talking about backstory. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

There is actually an impromptu writers workshop attended by northwest pros that meets on the Oregon coast at irregular intervals...

mary rosenblum

and it is known as the 'digging deeper' workshop.

mary rosenblum

And much of what goes on is a process of going beyond the superficial story...

mary rosenblum

so backstory matters, and not just to novice writers. :-)

mary rosenblum

And part of the reason I wanted to talk about it today, is that I tend to see extremes in novice fiction...

mary rosenblum

either way too much backstory delivered in an indigestible lump...

mary rosenblum

or so little backstory that the characters don't seem real.

mary rosenblum

And that balance point between is darn hard to reach when you're starting out.

mary rosenblum

Back story plays a critical role in characterization.

mary rosenblum

We all have basic 'default' assumptions about how people will behave.

mary rosenblum

Kids love their parents, that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

So if your character behaves in a way that is not 'default'...say this kid really hates his mother...

mary rosenblum

and there is no backstory to let us understand the reason for that behavior...

mary rosenblum

the reader simply disbelieves the character... 'he would never really be like that'...

mary rosenblum

and your character fails for the reader.

jr souza jr

So at this point we will be discussing back story as is actually told to the readers in one form or the other not a back stiry developed by the writer for charcater development history etc.

mary rosenblum

Well, it's rather hard to discuss one without the other, jr...

mary rosenblum

because a lot of the problem with backstory is WHAT to include. As well as HOW to include it.

t green

How soon do you start on the backstory in the novel? how much do you give the reader in the first few chapters?

mary rosenblum

That's always the hard part, no matter what length of work you're writing...

mary rosenblum

how much up front.

mary rosenblum

You need to give the reader just enough backstory in that first chapter (novel)...

mary rosenblum

or first scene (short story) that the action in that scene/chapter makes sense.

mary rosenblum

And you can hint about more details to come.

mary rosenblum

That is partly what makes openings so tough to write...

mary rosenblum

that balance of information and 'hook' action.

t green

When does backstory start detracting from the real story?

mary rosenblum

When it submerges the plot, t.

mary rosenblum

A lot of this issue involves pace....when the story grinds to a halt, you are including too much backstory.

mary rosenblum

And backstory is probably not as compelling as your main story...it sure shouldn't be!

mary rosenblum

For example, take out kid who hates his mother for whatever reason...

mary rosenblum

if the story opens with a long narrative passage about how this kid's mother abused and neglected him...

mary rosenblum

many readers will think 'oh, another dreary story about dysfunctional families' and move on to another book or story.

mary rosenblum

But if you open with the kid doing whatever he's doing in this story..

mary rosenblum

and readers are engaged by the character, caught up in the plot...

mary rosenblum

the dysfunctional family issues, while a major part of this story, perhaps...

mary rosenblum

are not enough to drive the reader away from THIS character's story.

mary rosenblum

And readers are sophisticated and tolerant...to a point at least.

mary rosenblum

If you suggest...'I'll let you find out what happened, just be patient'...we usually are.

mary rosenblum

As you're creating backstory, you are indeed creating that iceberg.

mary rosenblum

And the really hard part is deciding what constitutes the 'tip' that will show up in your story.

mary rosenblum

While some new writers don't put enough in, it's more common to include too much if you have researched and created your character with any depth...

mary rosenblum

that was my problem as a novice believe me. :-)

t green

Does that knowledge just come with practice? Trial and error?

mary rosenblum

It comes from feedback, t...

mary rosenblum

you and your readers are a dynamic team...

mary rosenblum

the more you get feedback on what you write, the more you get a 'feel' for what the average reader needs in terms of backstory.

mary rosenblum

I still check my work with readers before I send it out...these days I often need to include MORE backstory rather than less, but I let readers tell me that. :-)

mary rosenblum

I could go back and easily edit out quite a bit from some of my early published stories. :-)

mary rosenblum

What you need to ask yourself...especially at that critical beginning...is 'which of all these details is necessary for the reader to get the story'.

mary rosenblum

And 'necessary' is the key.

mary rosenblum

Sure it's NICE to know all this stuff about the character...

mary rosenblum

but if it submerges the story until it bores the reader...is it a good thing?

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and this morning we're talking about backstory. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

t green

So you can weave backstory in throughout the entire story? Except for maybe the climax? Because by that time the reader should know why the character acts that way?

mary rosenblum

There is a point in every story where backstory is finished and the story rushes on to the climax and resolution without the addition of any new information...

mary rosenblum

and you get to recognize that point after awhile. :-)

mary rosenblum

To me, it always has a 'downhill from here' feel..meaning that it's an exhilerating rush to the end...

mary rosenblum

I've built in all my clues, all my backstory, all my characters and from here on the plot powers the story to the end.

mary rosenblum

I love that point. :-)

mary rosenblum

It should certainly come BEFORE the climax!

mary rosenblum

Although of course, in something like mystery, you often have revelations about whodunnit at the end...

mary rosenblum

but that's not backstory.

mary rosenblum

Learning 'need to know' is the hard part.

mary rosenblum

And believe me, if you write in the speculative fiction field, or if you've set your mainstream or mystery story...

mary rosenblum

in a universe that is not familiar to the average reader...

mary rosenblum

your backstory includes worldbuilding and you REALLY have to be selective about what you include.

mary rosenblum

I probably take more time on the first ten pages of a short story...first chapter of a novel...

mary rosenblum

than on any other similar stretch of pages ...by an order of magnitude.

mary rosenblum

I weigh the many many details the reader will need to know eventually...

mary rosenblum

and pick out the very few that need to come first.

mary rosenblum

It's worth spending that time.

mary rosenblum

It is part of the process that sucks your reader into your world...

mary rosenblum

AND for those of you who are not yet published...it is something that catches an editor's eye in the slush pile.

wingedwarrior24

Can the first words start the backstory?

mary rosenblum

Sure...as long as they don't distract from your main plot point and engage the reader's curiosity.

mary rosenblum

Jerome killed his first tiger when he was twelve. Now, at seventeen, he stood at the edge of the clearing, the hair prickling on the back of his neck.

mary rosenblum

That first sentence is back story, but it's a good hook, too. :-)

mary rosenblum

However...a real problem...one I see fairly regularly...

mary rosenblum

is when the author begins with something like this...Jerome's tiger hunting past...

mary rosenblum

and then suddenly switches gears and puts us into downtown Manhattan and that's the last we hear about tigers!

mary rosenblum

This is why flashback starts are risky...if your reader really liked the tige hunt and you don't...

mary rosenblum

immediately offer something stronger on that Manhattan street...you may lose your reader.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and this morning we're talking about backstory. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Hi, marina.

mary rosenblum

I just peeked into the auditorium and caught your question.

mary rosenblum

She asked how that strong backstory start could catch an editor's eye in the slush pile.

mary rosenblum

The reason is this...the stack of non-published author ms in the slush pile...

mary rosenblum

tend to share a lot of the same problems...

mary rosenblum

poor characterization, wordiness, slow starts...

mary rosenblum

and when your work does NOT share one of those usual problems, the editor notices and thinks...'hmmm..this one is worth watching'...

mary rosenblum

and then does just that.

mary rosenblum

I would bet that in your average 100 ms slush pile (the non pros), that at least 85 have poor starts.

mary rosenblum

If your start is strong and 'clean'...it takes the reader instantly into that universe without confusion and begins the story...

mary rosenblum

it's going to stand out to an editor. Same thing with chapter one of your novel.

bengalrose

I suggest that if that backstory is so strong, then perhaps the author should consider writing THAT story instead. I had to do that with my novel when I realized the backstory was the REAL story.

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, bengal...if your flashbacks are more fun than your novel, for example...maybe THAT is what you should be writing about.

mary rosenblum

Never be afraid to realize that your 'backstory' is the stronger story and write that.

mary rosenblum

Change is often good!

wingedwarrior24

Can you give backstory in dialogue?

mary rosenblum

Oh yes...dialogue is a powerful tool for delivering information to the reader.

mary rosenblum

However...beware of the 'as we all know, John' dialogue.

mary rosenblum

If you and your partner are on your way to the supermarket, would you say something like this?

mary rosenblum

Well, Martha, here we are on our way to the supermarket and it's Thursday afternoon."

mary rosenblum

The original episodes of Star Trek included many marvelous examples of 'as we all know' dialogue...

mary rosenblum

as various crew members reminded each other of where they were going. I wondered at times if they didn't suffer from early Altzheimers!

mary rosenblum

A naive character is an excellent addition to a story when you need to bring in backstory through dialogue.

mary rosenblum

I often replot stories to include such a character realistically, when I realize I can't share enough backstory with the readers.

jr souza jr

But then wouldn't your back story which is now the main plot need a back story ;-)

mary rosenblum

If your backstory is now the story? Of course, jr...

mary rosenblum

Think of a character's life as an archeological dig...the top layer is 'today', and beneath that lie the earlier layers...

mary rosenblum

And if you decide that one of those earlier layers is now your story...

mary rosenblum

you need to excavate the layers that lie beneath that new 'now'.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and this morning we're talking about backstory. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Remember that one of the things that makes your characters and story powerful...

mary rosenblum

is if the readers can figure it all out for themselves...

mary rosenblum

rather than be spoonfed the meanings.

mary rosenblum

If you simply tell the reader what is going on, the reader has to take your word for it.

mary rosenblum

If you show events and the reader is able to realize why this character is behaving this way...

mary rosenblum

it is the READER's realization and it is much more in keeping with real life.

avatar

Be like Orson Scott Card and write a whole back story series

mary rosenblum

Hey, don't know the commercial application of strong backstory! LOL

mary rosenblum

If your characters have enough of an implied past and your readers love them, they'll happily buy stories about that implied past!

mary rosenblum

And in short fiction, a complex and well thought out backstory can yield new stories...

mary rosenblum

that feature characters who are only secondary in your first story.

mary rosenblum

Think of it as an expanding web. :-)

mary rosenblum

The other thing to keep in mind is that the iceberg metaphor works in your favor.

mary rosenblum

While you create that whole iceberg in order to add only the tip to your stories...

mary rosenblum

you can show the reader only that tip and the readers will infer the entire iceberg...

mary rosenblum

you don't have to cram that huge chunk of stuff into your story...

mary rosenblum

which is something I see quite often.

mary rosenblum

And it's always a challenge. :-) I currently have a story set in a very complex universe...and at the moment,

mary rosenblum

my backstory totally submerges the plot, sigh.

mary rosenblum

I need to backstory, so I'm going to have to find a stronger plot to balance it.

mary rosenblum

And that is something you can do...if you really can't trim the backstory any further (and usually, ahem, you CAN)...

mary rosenblum

you can increase the strength of your plot so that they once more balance.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and this morning we're talking about backstory. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

If your character is going to behave in unexpected ways, then backstory is very critical.

mary rosenblum

Realize that you know your character very well, so his/her behavior makes perfect sense...

mary rosenblum

but your reader knows nothing of this person, has never met, him/her before.

mary rosenblum

If your character behaves in a way that is not 'typical' or expected...

mary rosenblum

your reader is not likely to simply accept it, rather your reader is likely to say...

mary rosenblum

'A real person wouldn't do that'...and your character seems unreal.

mary rosenblum

Backstory IS characterization unless your MC simply reacts in an expected fashion to external events. (A dragon attacks, he fights it off...that sort of thing).

mary rosenblum

Marina, for some reason /ask is not working for you!

mary rosenblum

She said that she read a novel where there was very litttle backstory and asked if that might be because the plot was so strong.

mary rosenblum

Well, realize for one thing, that publication does not necessarily imply quality...it means the story sells. :-)

mary rosenblum

There are a lot of books out there that you should probably not use as examples of craft. :-)

mary rosenblum

And that can be frustrating or inspiring depending on your frame of mind. :-)

mary rosenblum

You do see a lot of 'action' novels where the MCs simply do react to external plot elements and we really don't know much about them.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, they got published. Will they really move readers, will they be remembered years later?

mary rosenblum

Probably not.

mary rosenblum

Be careful...just because something got published, doesn't mean you can do the same thing and get published. :-) The publisher might have learned by his mistakes by now. LOL

wingedwarrior24

About unexpected behaviour...in horror isn't that expected?

mary rosenblum

In the good horror I've read, winged, the MC's behavior is usually pretty justified and the behavior of the monsters, what have you, is pretty consistent to the author's rules for the universe.

mary rosenblum

But the MC's behavior tends to come out of that person's backstory characterization.

mary rosenblum

And the character's actions and words as the plot progresses create lots of backstory.

mary rosenblum

It's not all narrative or flashback or even character thought.

mary rosenblum

We infer quite a bit from character behavior.

mary rosenblum

There are two sorts of backstory...

mary rosenblum

the characters' backstory...which establishes motivations and justifies behavior...

mary rosenblum

and the backstory of the universe of your story...

mary rosenblum

where we are, when we are, what is going on, who inhabits this space.

mary rosenblum

If you're using the real world as setting, say you're writing a mystery set in SF or Seattle...

mary rosenblum

you don't need a lot of backstory...we need to know that we're in, say, Seattle, and when we are ...perhaps 1970, whatever.

mary rosenblum

If the particular place and time play a major role in the story...

mary rosenblum

say it's set during the steel strikes in Pittsburgh in the twenties...

mary rosenblum

then more backstory is required.

mary rosenblum

Because your average reader may know nothing about that period.

mary rosenblum

Historical fiction like that can be as challenging as writing SF or fantasy, where you have to create the world as well as the characters.

mary rosenblum

One way to deal with the issue of that strong start and setting up your universe...

mary rosenblum

is to intentionally find a sequence of action to open with that sets up the basics your readers need to know.

mary rosenblum

Let's use the steel strike example..

mary rosenblum

What MUST the readers know in order to understand what is happening in the story?

mary rosenblum

Le'ts say our MC is a man who will become involved in the strikes.

mary rosenblum

Reader's need to know WHEN this is, right?

mary rosenblum

Where this is...

mary rosenblum

They need to know what is going on in the steel industry...

mary rosenblum

that the company is owned by Carnegie, that he won't tolerate organization...

mary rosenblum

that living conditions are horrible for workers...

mary rosenblum

that labor organization is going on elsewhere.

mary rosenblum

If I was writing this story, I'd ask myself...what can my MC be doing that will illustrate all this as he does it.

mary rosenblum

Any suggestions?

mary rosenblum

There is no right or wrong here. :-)

tory

Reading a paper at breakfast with his wife? Or over the shoulder of a businessman on the trolley as he rides to work carrying his metal lunch pail?

mary rosenblum

That would work...he can certainly give us a lot of information...

mary rosenblum

He might not pay a LOT of attention to the details in the paper, since he knows what is going on...

mary rosenblum

maybe notice headlines...strikers beaten by Pinkertons in Bethlehem mill or something...

mary rosenblum

and worry that it might happen here...wonder what he'll do...

mary rosenblum

Informational, but kind of internal...that's my only quibble...not really a lot of action, but quite a bit of thinking.

tory

Or at lunch with co-workers

mary rosenblum

Yeah, that would give us dialogue and the actions of opening lunch boxes...show us a bit of how...

mary rosenblum

these guys live... A bar scene after work would do that, too...

speckledorf

MC can be in his "horrible" house reading newspaper with news os strike...maybe he is reading news to wife?

mary rosenblum

Yep...that's got lots of info potential, too. Again, I'd try for something that offered more action, just because it will tend to hook readers...

mary rosenblum

more strongly than listening to a chat or reading a paper.

avatar

Manning a picket line getting worked over by Union busters

mary rosenblum

That's a really strong action start and a great hook...

mary rosenblum

you're going to have to shoehorn in the when, of course, and you won't be able to give us nearly as much information as our...

mary rosenblum

lunchtime arguement or the newspaper reading...

tolkienlvr

MC comes home to impoverished household, tells wife briefly about bad day at work, throws newspaper on table with headline about strikes?

mary rosenblum

Again, good info and more action here...hmmm...

mary rosenblum

let's combine the two..avatar's strong action scene with the informational starts..

mary rosenblum

what about the lunchtime scene, but an arguement breaks out between...

mary rosenblum

pro union and anti union pair and a fistfight ensues?

mary rosenblum

That gives us more action, but we'll get more information on the time/place as the guys argue.

tory

Your bar scene, Mary, could get really heated with factions planning violence and MC having to make his decision about which side to join.

mary rosenblum

Yep, good!

mary rosenblum

Again, that ups the ante of 'hook' value here!

mary rosenblum

And because they're arguing, we'll pick up a LOT of info from the dialogue...

mary rosenblum

we just have to watch out for 'as we all know' stuff...

mary rosenblum

but as the accusations and rebuttals fly, it shouldn't be hard to get a LOT to the reader.

speckledorf

MC is snatched out of his house by the bad guys. They tell him "boss" wants to "talk" to him.

mary rosenblum

That would be a strong start, too, speck, and it offers a lot of info potential...

mary rosenblum

if say, the boss is pressuring him to become an informer...

mary rosenblum

Nice job! You all have set up some good opening scenes here that offer a lot of historical backstory...

mary rosenblum

and of course, we're including character backstory ...not that we need much here.

mary rosenblum

That will come in as the plot begins to unwind.

coach

Mary, with historical fiction and the need to establish "the time," could you use a Foreward at the beginning to give a history. That would set up the events. Or, is that a cheesy cop out?

mary rosenblum

I've seen it done, coach, and you can do it, but I'd do it only as a last resort. It's just not very compelling.

mary rosenblum

But if it's the ONLY way you can figure out how to get the info to the reader, then do it that way.

mary rosenblum

As to our steel strike story... let's go with the bar or lunch and arguement that becomes a fight...

mary rosenblum

that's a strong hook scene.

mary rosenblum

So what backstory do we need? Let's say our MC is a plant worker.

mary rosenblum

What does the reader NEED to know here?

avatar

Fit the rest in at the aid station, dialog with a cute nurse

mary rosenblum

Oh, I missed that... that would work, except there weren't any aid stations back then...those guys either..

mary rosenblum

ended up in jail or got their busted heads fixed at home. :-)

mary rosenblum

But our guy could get hauled to a sympathetic doctor..

mary rosenblum

who wouldn't give him away to the Pinkertons.

tory

probably need to know if our MC is head of household or single guy

mary rosenblum

Yes, that WOULD make a big difference. If he's supporting a family, pressures on him will be different than if he's single.

mary rosenblum

We could actually save that for later...

mary rosenblum

if our guy is ambivalent about his role in the upcoming strike...

mary rosenblum

We DO need to know how he feels, right off, yes?

mary rosenblum

Is he pro strike or anti?

mary rosenblum

And that will certainly tie in with our plot in some way...

mary rosenblum

it's an obvious character conflict!

mary rosenblum

Maybe he's pro strike and single,and his married brother with four kids is anti.

speckledorf

We would need to know how he feels about violence too.

mary rosenblum

Yes. He could be pro strike, but against the violence that the local union leader is promoting...

mary rosenblum

and ends up in an ethical dilemma when that boss plots to blow up the foreman's house.

mary rosenblum

And notice, we're talking one detail right off in this scene...

mary rosenblum

how does he feel about this conflict?

mary rosenblum

We're going to see him in action...

mary rosenblum

so we'll find out that he works on say, the bucket pouring molten steel in the rolling mill...

mary rosenblum

and we'll see his clothes, his lunch, so we'll know what his socio economic level is...

mary rosenblum

all we really need to concentrate on here is how he feels about this..

mary rosenblum

we can slip in many more details about his life and past later, as we need them.

mary rosenblum

And these few details wouldn't bog down our arguement/fight scene at all.

avatar

How careful he must work to not be killed!

mary rosenblum

You mean because of his job, avatar? :-)

mary rosenblum

My best friend's dad did that...was foreman on the bucket at the rolling mill.

mary rosenblum

It did splash once when the chain gave way...a hardhat does not protect you.

jr souza jr

I say we close the mill and lock all the workers out, then you'll see action and the potentioal for lots of dialogue

mary rosenblum

That works, too...it's similar in form to our bar/lunch and fight...

mary rosenblum

do you see the pattern?

mary rosenblum

These are starts with some form of drama...

mary rosenblum

a lunchroom fight, a picket line, a lockout and angry workers...

mary rosenblum

DRAMA.

mary rosenblum

And that hooks the reader into the story and allows us to wrap...

mary rosenblum

the necessary details around those strong bones, if you will.

mary rosenblum

While a newspaper reading or conversation start would offer more info...

mary rosenblum

it lacks the drama.

rexhubbard

an accident that kills a worker

mary rosenblum

Again...drama rex...and you could do a spectacular scene...

mary rosenblum

where a link goes and this multi-ton bucket of white hot molten steel splashes and somebody dies...

mary rosenblum

and the workers (including our MC) are angry when the foreman just brushes the death aside.

mary rosenblum

The company won't help the widow and they talk about strike.

mary rosenblum

LOTS of info and that dramatic scene of the accident.

mary rosenblum

Now the start doesn't have to include the drama of a fight or an accident or a train wreck!

mary rosenblum

Many stories simply don't include that sort of material...

mary rosenblum

but you can do the same thing with action, even if it is everyday action.

mary rosenblum

If it's a western, you might start with the MC roping a calf in the branding pens...

mary rosenblum

and as the details of the job...unfamiliar and thus interesting to most readers...unfold,

mary rosenblum

we find out what is going on, where we are, and who is involved...

mary rosenblum

Find the action or dramatic action that will allow you to offer the backstory to the reader even as the reader is avidly following the action.

mary rosenblum

And you'll have a good strong start.

mary rosenblum

You might start out in a mystery, or dark fantasy, or SF piece, with our MC tiptoeing through scary or unfamiliar terraine...

mary rosenblum

there, you're giving the reader something to look at and explore...

mary rosenblum

While it doesn't have the drama of an accident, it has the strange new scenery or scary scenery to compell us.

mary rosenblum

So I hope someone writes the striker story, now. :-)

mary rosenblum

Hey you have an opening scene, and a conflict or three all waiting for you!

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

 

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