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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you had a great
weekend! I did. I was a guest at our local writers conference, and did a
LOT of panels.
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mary rosenblum
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Much fun...especially the
panel where the lights all went out in the middle, and the SF writer who
was speaking never even missed a beat. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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The entire room applauded!
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, the topic for
today's forum came from the conference.
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mary rosenblum
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I was on several worldbuilding
panels...
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mary rosenblum
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where we began by creating a
world, then populating it with life and ultimately races and cultures...
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mary rosenblum
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But world building is imporant
for writers in all genres.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a bigger challenge for
those of us who write in made up fantasy or science fictional worlds...
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mary rosenblum
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but the challenge can be
nearly as large for authors who set their stories in unfamiliar settings...
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mary rosenblum
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such as a penitentiary, a
boarding school, a hospital...
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mary rosenblum
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even though this is the real
world, your average reader isn't automatically familiar with it...
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mary rosenblum
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and therefore you can't make
the assumption that he/she can construct the world needed from a few minor
clues.
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mbvoelker
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How important is it to establish
the outside the here and now setting in the opening paragraphs?
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mary rosenblum
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It's always VERY necessary to
let the reader know if the setting is the real world or not...
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mary rosenblum
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but outside of that very basic
detail, it entirely depends on whether you are writing short or long form.
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mary rosenblum
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In short story form, you are
much more constrained to a 'hook start' than you are in novel form..
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mary rosenblum
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where you can really use most
of the first chapter to set up your world.
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mary rosenblum
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So in short story form, it's
best to choose one or two details at the most that will tell your reader
'we're not in Kansas anymore'...
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mary rosenblum
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and then fill in more details
as you work your way through that first scene.,
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mary rosenblum
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Hi, luv2write. You need to
include the slash in front of the ask: /ask to make it happen.
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mary rosenblum
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But I did see your question.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Building a place that you've
never been to is a challenge...
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mary rosenblum
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but it can be
done...realistically, if you're willing to put some thought into crafting
your scenes.
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mary rosenblum
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In many ways, realistic
settings can be even more a challenge than a fantasy setting.
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mary rosenblum
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If you get your 'real' details
wrong, you can shatter the 'suspension of disbelief contract' you have with
your readers.
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mary rosenblum
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So you need to be careful to
get the real details that you DO use right.
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mary rosenblum
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Mystery stories, for example,
are most of the time set in real places...
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mary rosenblum
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although many writers, myself
included, may create a fictional town to set the story in.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many ways to
research real world settings and the internet is a wonderful resource.
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mary rosenblum
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Many chamber of commerce type
websites include live camera images of downtown streets.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's a great place to pick
up a few realistic details...
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mary rosenblum
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then craft a scene where you
can describe that particular street in detail...
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mary rosenblum
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and you will convince your
reader that you have been there. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that many small
details are interchangeable from place to place.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are walking down a city
street...San Francisco, San Antonio, Paris...
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mary rosenblum
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you will probably pass small
groceries or convenience stories...maybe a flower seller...
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mary rosenblum
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these are generic enough that
they will be accepted for any urban area...
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mary rosenblum
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and they allow you to focus on
the details of this particular flower seller or grocery and thus...
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mary rosenblum
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give the setting a feeling or
reality -- we can really SEE it ---
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mary rosenblum
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but unless you set it on a
well known street, your local readers won't realize that you made it up.
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mary rosenblum
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Side streets are wonderful
resources.
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luv2write
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How do you know what the people
are like in that area, their mannerisms , etc.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this is where you have
to ask yourself if you really want this setting for your story.
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mary rosenblum
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If you decide, say, that you
want to set it in Moscow, Russia...
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mary rosenblum
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you have never visited Russia,
you don't know anyone who has...
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mary rosenblum
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you can do a couple of
things...
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mary rosenblum
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You can find first person
accounts of visits to that city, tour books, that sort of thing...
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mary rosenblum
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and try for a few really
realistic details...OR...you can find another setting for your story that
is more accessible for you.
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deb1234
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Then isn't it just easier to
create a realistic setting of your own?
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mary rosenblum
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If you can... That's why many
writers create fictional small towns.
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mary rosenblum
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Their MC can travel to say,
Los Angeles on business...
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mary rosenblum
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but the many small details of
the story can take place in a made-up mileau.
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mary rosenblum
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Research takes some work.
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mary rosenblum
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I think I put about 500 miles
on my pickup and shot about 20 rolls of film, doing the setting research
for my Columbia Gorge mystery series.
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mary rosenblum
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But it was worth it. I got
many fan letters asking me when I lived in the Gorge. :-)
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deb1234
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Is that sort of thing tax
deductible
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mary rosenblum
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It is, deb, but you'd have to
check with your accountant...
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mary rosenblum
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as memory serves me, I think
you need to sell the book in order to claim those expenses...but I sure
keep ALL my receipts when I'm doing this!
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tory
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Besides the investment in
research, are there other factors that make real vs. ficitonal setting
preferable?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, readers LOVE reality.
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mary rosenblum
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They are very excited when
they see the local grocery store in that book....or they've been to
Fisherman's Wharf, too.
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mary rosenblum
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You get a avery strong hit of
reader identification that way.
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mary rosenblum
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It's entirely up to you and
your abilities to do the research needed.
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mary rosenblum
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Nothing wrong with setting a
mystery in your back yard!
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mary rosenblum
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My recent guest...
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mary rosenblum
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Steve Hamilton...set his
mystery series in Minnesota, as I recall...
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mary rosenblum
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mainly because he knew the
state and had family there, so he could visit easily.
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bjrpark
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Could you address specifics for
detail vs. general description?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, bjr, and this is a really
important question.
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mary rosenblum
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General description is...she
strolled down Fisherman's Wharf, passing the lines of tourists waiting to
board tour boats to Alcatraz or to view the Golden Gate Bridge from below.
Flags snapped in the brisk breeze and the air smelled of fish, diesel, and
hot dogs from the vendors' carts.
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mary rosenblum
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You can get this from any tour
guide to San Francisco and put those details into the character's POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Here are the specifics....
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mary rosenblum
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A mime posed stiffly under one
of the wrought-iron lamps, hazel eyes fixed on nothing, a box painted to
look like a coin drop by his feet.
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mary rosenblum
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On a whim, Kelly fished a buck
from her jeans pocket and stuffed it into the slot.
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mary rosenblum
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The mime jerked stiffly
upright, white-shirted arms raising an invisible harmonica to his lips...
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mary rosenblum
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with the stiff gracelessness
of a wind up toy...
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mary rosenblum
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Now you could use other
specifics...
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mary rosenblum
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say a little old Asian woman
with a broad Mongol face and a tight gray bun...
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mary rosenblum
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carrying a string bag full of
bok choy and a huge, pink fish under one arm.
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arfelin
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Steve sets his series in Upper
Michigan.
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mary rosenblum
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That's right...one of those M
states up north, LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks, arefelin.
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deb1234
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As a TV oriented culture, aren't
we used to general scenes like you just described instead of specifics?
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mary rosenblum
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But just because TV is
mediocre does that mean YOU should do that an no more?
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mary rosenblum
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If your prose is no better
than a TV show, why should your TV watcher read you?
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mary rosenblum
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If your prose transports your
reader ONTO that street, makes it MORE real than TV...your reader buys and
reads all your work.
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deb1234
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Just what I wanted to hear
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not scolding you, deb,
don't worry! It's something that most novice writer bring to the craft...
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mary rosenblum
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the feeling that what they see
on TV or on the movie screen is how they should do it.
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mary rosenblum
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But what has kept prose alive
and well in the face of visual media is that prose can do it BETTER.
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mary rosenblum
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We allow the reader to help
create a rich and three dimensional reality that works for that reader
specifically and personally...
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mary rosenblum
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where we all see the same
scene on the TV set, every one of you has a slightly different version of
that mime and the old Asian lady in your head
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ducky
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Do you think a study of
television scriptwriting would provide an interesting contrast to prose? I
was thinking it might be instructive.
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mary rosenblum
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Might be. It's the bare bones
of plot and scene dynamics. The characterization is only sketched in
because that is the actors' job.
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mary rosenblum
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I'f you're going to use it as
a learning tool, I'd sure use scripts from strongly plotted episodes. :-)
TV is not a great example of quality, in genera.
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luv2write
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How much is too much description
in something like romance.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Excellent question, luv2!
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, you CAN have too much
description, and I see it quite a bit in novice manuscripts.
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mary rosenblum
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We walk a tightrope between
enough description...so that the story comes to visual life...and so much
description that the plot drowns...
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mary rosenblum
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and the story grinds to a
halt.
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ducky
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I got a lesson in that recently.
I'm writing a romance. Sent a chunk to my instructor. She said romance
readers want rich, oppulent descriptions. You can do too much, but I wasn't
doing enough.
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...it's like walking a
fence rail...you can fall off on either side, and that is where readers
really help you!
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, you want to
include a few very vivid details that bring the scene or the setting to
life...
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mary rosenblum
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but not every detail of, say,
making breakfast.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's say you want to bring
your Greek fishing village scene to life for your readers...
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mary rosenblum
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You have your MC wander down
to the harbor after she wakes at her bed and breakfast.
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mary rosenblum
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You might mention the morning
sun gleaming on the white plaster walls and the red geraniums spilling from
the blue window boxes...
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mary rosenblum
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the white and blue sails
unfurling as the fleet sets out to sea, the screeching of the gulls, the
smell of fish and sewage, and the cries of the fishermen as they joke with
each other and so forth.
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mary rosenblum
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But you might leave out the
many more details of the various individual boats, what color this one is,
the coiled on the deck, the way the nets are piled, the color the
fishermens' trousers...
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mary rosenblum
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any of these details are
GOOD...but not all of them together.
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mary rosenblum
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So you decide what is going to
convey your harbor scene the most clearly and then you include those few
details...
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mary rosenblum
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and leave all those others
out.
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mary rosenblum
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Creating your world is another
case of the 'iceberg'. You need to create the entire ice berg, but your
reader will only see the tip.
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ducky
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in my case it was the difference
between "potatoes" and "potatoes roast in rosemary and
swimming in butter"
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mary rosenblum
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That's an excellent example,
ducky. I see a lot of generalities in student and novice stories.
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mary rosenblum
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She ate lunch instead of she
ate a bowl of strawberry yoghurt sprinkled with wheat germ.
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tory
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sewage, wouldn't have thought of
it. Been there?
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mary rosenblum
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Been in other harbors where I
smelled it. LOL
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mary rosenblum
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And that sewage...that's the
kind of detail that takes you out of the tour guide and into reality.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many others.
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mary rosenblum
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Any detail that will not
appear in the tour guide will help you create reality here.
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ducky
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Try the Mersey River at low tide
just outside Liverpool, England Phew!!
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mary rosenblum
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Or any bay with a good stretch
of low-tide mudflat.
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mary rosenblum
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Scent is an excellent way to
increase reality !
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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And I totally made the sewage
smell up...but it could be there, even if a reader has visited this very
same town and didn't smell it.
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mary rosenblum
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These are the kinds of details
taht you can safely make up.
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mary rosenblum
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A dust devil swirling fry
wrappers and cigarette packages in the narrow entry to an alley.
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mary rosenblum
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A child running after a scabby
stray cat...
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mary rosenblum
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A small pool overhung with
ferns, spangled with dew.
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mary rosenblum
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You can create the 'tour
guide' details with broad strokes...
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mary rosenblum
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then focus down to the very
small details that COULD be there on that real street or forest or
wherever...
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mary rosenblum
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and they make your 'tour
guide' details suddenly seem real and intimate.
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mary rosenblum
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Later on, your readers will
remember that you got ALL the details of this locale they know so well
correct...
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mary rosenblum
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when actually, you only KNEW
the large details...
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mary rosenblum
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but they made those small,
specific, and rather universal details seem specific to this time and
place.
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mary rosenblum
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In a made up universe, you can
kind of reverse this process...
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mary rosenblum
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and your small, local details
can suggest a much larger picture...
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mary rosenblum
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and will save you a lot of
words of descriptive exposition.
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mary rosenblum
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If we see a stable boy picking
the feet of a knight's charger...
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mary rosenblum
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we suddenly have an entire
setting ...we don't know the specific details...
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mary rosenblum
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but we assume a medieval
castle setting of some sort...unless proven otherwise.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are creating a very
complex world...whether it's fantasy, SF, or merely an unfamiliar real
world setting
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mary rosenblum
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The best way to do it without
boring the reader with exposition...
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mary rosenblum
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is to have your MC doing
something that demonstrates the setting to us.
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mbvoelker
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In one of Harry Turtledove's
series, The Missing Legion, the alienness of the culture was reinforced and
driven home by the MC's dislike of having cinnamon in the sauce for the
roast goose rather than garlic. As a cook I found that a very vivid and
compelling detail that I remember now 20 years since I last read the
series.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a very good example of
the kind of small and unexpected detail that will bring a setting to life.
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mary rosenblum
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Taste is another very
overlooked sense that is highly evocative.
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mary rosenblum
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You can show the reader a lot
about your universe as your character simply goes about his or her day,
doing interesting things.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, in a recent
Asimov's story, I needed to immediately tell the reader that we were in the
asteroid belt and my MC was an asteroid miner...
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mary rosenblum
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and just TELLING all that
would have made for a very dull start.
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mary rosenblum
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So I simply had my miner
setting down on an asteroid and beginning to mine water ice...
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mary rosenblum
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before being interupted by the
plot. :-) Took about two paragraphs...
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mary rosenblum
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gave the reader interesting
stuff to watch and serve as a hook...
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mary rosenblum
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and by the time the plot
knocked on the door two paragraphs later, we had a setting.
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mary rosenblum
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If you CAN, in a short story,
do start with the plot event...but if you need to...
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mary rosenblum
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you can begin with interesting
and compelling action that sets up your world before that first plot
event...
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mary rosenblum
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but I would limit that to a
paragraph or two and it DOES need to be compelling.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen,
or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular
'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question
to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you who write or
want to try SF...
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mary rosenblum
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there are some excellent world
building books out there...
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mary rosenblum
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that help you get your planets
right. :-)
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bravo6
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OSC has a WONDERFUL one,
although i can't remember the name...
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mary rosenblum
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So does Stephen Gillett...
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mary rosenblum
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He's an excellent popular
science writer...and a friend of mine...
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mary rosenblum
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and his 'World Building -- A
writer's guide to constructing star systems and life-supporting planets'..
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mary rosenblum
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is VERY readable.
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speckledorf
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How to Write Science Fiction and
Fantasy is the Card book...
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks, speck. As I recall,
that covers a lot of general information about the craft.
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mary rosenblum
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High Frontiers, edited by Stan
Schmide (editor of Analog) is another good one for authors who want to do
star ships and orbital colonies.
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mary rosenblum
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As for real world universes...
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mary rosenblum
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the childrens section at the
library and the travel section at the library are excellent.
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mary rosenblum
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Personal essays by people who
have lived in the setting you plan to use are another great resource for
realistic details.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, 'A Year in
Provence' the narrative by Peter Mayle..
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mary rosenblum
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is full of little details
about village, people, food, customs and the like.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...
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mary rosenblum
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beware of using a fiction
story as research for YOUR setting.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless you are sure that THAT
author got it right!
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luv2write
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Do childrens books in general
require more description?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, not really, but what
children's books DO require is that you stick to a few, vivid details
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mary rosenblum
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So if you, say, want to
research Paris and you look in the juvenile section..
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mary rosenblum
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that book on Paris for 10 year
olds will tend to have strong points of interest rather than a ton of
facts...
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mary rosenblum
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and they're usually well
illustrated which many adult books are not...
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mary rosenblum
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so you may find a lovely
street scene that you can use in your story.
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mary rosenblum
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Of good photos of a market,
the street in front of a particular cathedral or what have you.
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mary rosenblum
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The travel section in the
library is a good one, too.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing else you can find
nice photos...
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mary rosenblum
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and then the challenge is to
arrange your plot events so you stick to parts of the setting that you have
specific visual details about.
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luv2write
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So visual is best in childrens,
not too many facts to clog the story?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, for children's stories,
too many details works against you...
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can and should use more
details in work for older readers, less in work for younger readers, but
VIVID matters even more, I think,
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mary rosenblum
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in work for younger readers.
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mary rosenblum
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Loss-of-interest threshold is
way lower! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Mainly, when you are creating
a complex universe, try really really hard to make every sentence do at
least two things.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that a scene should
do three things...advance the plot, enrich the setting, deepen the
characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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As much as you can, apply that
same rule of three on a sentence by sentence basis and you'll have VERY strong
prose.
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luv2write
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Ages say 1st to 5th grade?
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, luv2, there is a
sort of break with 'early readers' meaning the early grades, the middle
readers, say 5th - 7th grades roughly, and older readers...highschool age,
where readers are both teen and adult.
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mary rosenblum
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By the way, a future guest
here..in December...
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mary rosenblum
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will be Tamora Pierce, THE
most successful fantasy YA writer I know of, bless her.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have any interest in
writing YA don't miss that interview. she has a FULL slate of book tours,
so I was very honored that she took time to do this.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, we've almost run through
our Oregon Hour and I need to let my puppy out...she has been having fun
disassembling my firewood stack beside the woodstove...
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mary rosenblum
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Any last questions?
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mbvoelker
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How wonderful! I love her Circle
of Magic/The Circle Opens series. She creates vivid, utterly non-generic
worlds with a wonderful variety of cultures.
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mary rosenblum
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She does indeed and she is a
delightful and enthusiastic person.
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mary rosenblum
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She and I did a panel together
at the World SF conference and we had a ball.
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mary rosenblum
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Do remember when you are
creating your universe...use specifics...
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mary rosenblum
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it's not a house, it's a
shingled hut, a grass shack, or what have you.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not dinner, it's a slab
of overcooked mutton, glazed with grease or a charred sweet potato...
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mary rosenblum
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And 'show' us the setting
through your characters' actions.
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mary rosenblum
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There was a blacksmith shop at
the end of the alley... is much better as...
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mary rosenblum
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Panir hurried down the alley,
skirting the nervous bay dancing around the swearing blacksmith...
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mary rosenblum
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Let the readers build the
scene for themselves...don't tell them what they are seeing. That makes you
TV and TV does that better.
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mary rosenblum
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But TV can't let you build the
world!
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mary rosenblum
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And remember, too, that story
is a tripod.
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mary rosenblum
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Plot, character
and....SETTING.
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mary rosenblum
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If your setting is as strong
as your plot and characters, you have a very stable structure...
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mary rosenblum
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If your story is set in
Generictown, USA, why not move it?
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mary rosenblum
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If you remember Gorky Park,
the best selling mystery/thriller set in Moscow?
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mary rosenblum
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He wrote that same story set
in New York City and couldn't sell it.
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mary rosenblum
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Moved it to
Moscow...and...best seller.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it has been fun!
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mary rosenblum
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Drop into our casual chat here
tomorrow, same time and place...
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mary rosenblum
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where we get together to talk
about whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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And do join me on Thursday...
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mary rosenblum
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for my interview with Jeff
Herman, literary agent.
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mary rosenblum
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He's prepared to answer all
your questions about what agents want, how they work, and so forth.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good day, all
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mary rosenblum
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!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript of
the Forum at the usual place...
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mary rosenblum
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writing craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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