Forum Transcripts

Choreographing the Scene: 11/1/05

Event start time:

Tue Nov 01 12:05:11 2005

Event end time:

Tue Nov 01 13:35:39 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all. I hope you had an enjoyable and pleasantly spooky Halloween!

mary rosenblum

We're currently enjoying our second big Pacific storm in two days, so I'd say winter has officially arrived.

mary rosenblum

If anyone would like a few inches of rain, I'll do my best to oblige you.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we’re choreographing scenes. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk a bit about scenes and what they are.

mary rosenblum

A lot of novice writers end up with a story that has a 'flat' feel...

mary rosenblum

because they really don't understand how to choreograph a scene.

mary rosenblum

I should probably start out here by defining a scene

lore alley

Mary, I'm going to ask the question right away that is the most on my mind (because of NaNo ;-). Do you worry about scene choreography in the first draft??? Or is this a revision type of thing?

mary rosenblum

Lore, this is one of those things that you need to pay attention to in two stages, and yes, one stage is the first draft.

mary rosenblum

For those of you working on Nano novels (The National Novel Writing challenge...write a novel in November)...

mary rosenblum

a chapter is composed of one or several scenes...

mary rosenblum

and a chapter...even one that includes more than one scene...follows the same choreography of a scene.

mary rosenblum

So this should be extra helpful for you.

mary rosenblum

Okay...a scene is a sequence of action that occurs continuously in one place and time in one POV.

mary rosenblum

If you shift POV, if you leap ahead to the next day or a few hours from now...if you skip over to a new setting...

mary rosenblum

you have a new scene.

mary rosenblum

Scenes are like beads that you string into a necklace that is the story.

mary rosenblum

The first draft part of creating the strong scene is simply knowing WHY it's there.

mary rosenblum

Every scene has a reason for its existance...in fact it has three reasons.

mary rosenblum

It needs to 1: Advance the Plot.

mary rosenblum

2: Deepen the Characterization

mary rosenblum

3: Enrich the Setting.

mary rosenblum

This is what I call the Rule of Three.

mary rosenblum

I see quite a few novice scenes that simply carry the MC through a boring day at work.

mary rosenblum

Bores the reader, too!

mary rosenblum

All you need to know when you write the first draft is 'why is this here?'

mary rosenblum

YOu might need to reveal the MC's fear of spiders, or let us find out that the MC's brother is helping the bad guys, or something like that.

mary rosenblum

This might be where your MC finds evidence to make her suspect her new love is married.

mary rosenblum

Something important is revealed.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we’re choreographing scenes. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

On your second draft, you can work on the actual choreography of that scene...

mary rosenblum

giving it its own dramatic arc so that we rise to a dramatic peak, no matter how small compared to the main climax.

mary rosenblum

Those dramatic peaks in each scene...even if they are tiny...will give you a very strong forward momentum in your story...

mary rosenblum

and will help keep your readers glued to the pages. No worries about them not picking the book or story up again after they put it down.

cherley

How long should a chapter be apx. pages?

mary rosenblum

Cherley this is one of the most frustrating aspects of novel writing...there is no standard.

mary rosenblum

Generally, the younger your readers the shorter the chapters...

mary rosenblum

but for adults it's entirely up to your natural writing rhythms.

mary rosenblum

Generally a chapter is either one scene or a couple of scenes.

mary rosenblum

You, as a writer, will develop a 'scene length' that works for you, and you'll find that your scenes tend to turn out to be about that length most of the time.

mary rosenblum

My own 'natural scene length' is a bit short of 20 pages.

mary rosenblum

So that tends to be how long my chapters are, and they tend to be comprised of a single scene.

mary rosenblum

My SF writer friend Mike is very different.

mary rosenblum

His natural scene length is about ten pages.

mary rosenblum

It's what works comfortably for you.

kungfumama

Mary, is that your double-spaced typewritten pages, or finished product?

mary rosenblum

They actually come out close to the same, kungfu. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'm talking ds manuscript pages, but that's about the name number of mass market paperback pages.

cherley

Mine seem to be 4 pages

mary rosenblum

Then you would probably include multiple scenes in a chapter, cherley...

mary rosenblum

but I'll bet that as you increase your level of craft that your scenes grow.

mary rosenblum

A lot of novice writers write very short scenes because they're leaving a lot out...characterization, rich visuals...

mary rosenblum

and as they begin to master the complex balance of pacing and detail, their scene length grows.

cherley

How long should a book for a series be apx.?

mary rosenblum

That depends entirely on the publisher, Cherley.

mary rosenblum

If you look at the guidelines for various publishers, you'll see what they recommend as 'best lengths'.

mary rosenblum

Generally, for an adult novel, you're looking at 70,000 - 100,000 words.

mary rosenblum

But some publishers want shorter or longer.

mary rosenblum

Longer is usually better. :-) Up to a point. Generally , it is better to cut than to add.

cherley

What's the difference between a novel and a book?

mary rosenblum

A book is fiction or nonfiction, cherley. A novel is fiction only.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we’re choreographing scenes. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Once you have your first draft scene, it's time to take a look at the choreography of that scene.

cherley

I thought it had something to do with length.

mary rosenblum

Nope.

mary rosenblum

Some books are very short.

mary rosenblum

Although for award categories 'novel' is generally accepted to be a work of 40,000 words or more.

mary rosenblum

But that is pretty short for most novel publishers.

mary rosenblum

Nearly every scene should have a natural peak of rising action.

mary rosenblum

That is, the tension and intensity of the scene should increase to this point.

mary rosenblum

That may come at the end of the scene with a transition to the next scene (or chapter if this is also your chapter)...

mary rosenblum

or the tension may drop off as the scene transitions to the next one.

kungfumama

Is that generally when you had the 'high notes' - the little twists of interests?

mary rosenblum

Yes, kung.

mary rosenblum

If your scene is breakfast together, your high point might be when hubby says something...

mary rosenblum

that makes the wife realize he lied about where he was last night.

mary rosenblum

You might create rising action by showing us her increasing annoyance at his unexpected bad humor...

mary rosenblum

building to his comment and her sudden flash of realization. He wasn't at Bob's last night.

kungfumama

but a twist might be the husband dropping a knife with butter - when he's normally not so clumsy?

mary rosenblum

I think a better word would be plant, kung...

mary rosenblum

a plant is a clue that tips us off to something either now or later.

mary rosenblum

If he drops that knife it indicates what? Maybe he's tense and hiding it.

mary rosenblum

Or drunk. Or angry. Or something she said just startled him.

mary rosenblum

It indicates something is not right for him....or that's what most readers will assume.

mary rosenblum

Alone, it won't make much of a high point...

mary rosenblum

BUT...if she has just told him that she heard Butch Miller was murdered last night...

mary rosenblum

and hubby drops his glass of orange juice...AHA!

mary rosenblum

THat's a perfectly good dramatic peak for the scene and makes us guess that hubby has some connection to Butch or the murder...

mary rosenblum

even if his wife misses it.

mary rosenblum

The climax of the scene also shines a spotlight on what happens...

mary rosenblum

so generally, the climax of the scene also points the readers' attention to what we want the reader to 'get' in this scene...

mary rosenblum

OR...it can be a marvelous device for hiding clues in a mystery.

mary rosenblum

If you need to plant a clue that will point to your real killler, but you don't want the reader to guess who dunnit before the end...

mary rosenblum

You plant the clue in a scene where something else is the climax of the scene.

mary rosenblum

Readers pay attention to that climax and probably miss your sneaked-in clue.

mary rosenblum

For example, if Wife mentions the murder and hubby drops his glass...we assume he's involved right?

mary rosenblum

But if she mentioned that Sandy's ne'er do well son is back in town and then talks about the murder we probably won't pay much attention to ne'er do well...

mary rosenblum

because our attention is caught by the glass and our suspicion about hubby.

mary rosenblum

AT the end of the mystery we may find out that ne'er do well was the killer and that comment is a clue that he was in town at the time of the murder.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we’re choreographing scenes. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

cherley

how would you write a heart wrenching scream. Like spelling it out?

mary rosenblum

It is generally a good idea not to get too specific about that sort of thing, cherley.

mary rosenblum

Remember that you are writing for a LARGE number of readers.

mary rosenblum

What sounds 'heart wrenching' to you may make me giggle.

mary rosenblum

Not good.

mary rosenblum

He screamed is fine.

mary rosenblum

If you want it to be heart wrenching, that sense should come out of the context of the scene.

mary rosenblum

If he walks out the door to find the body of his beloved son on the front porch with his throat cut, we KNOW that scream is heart wrenching.

mary rosenblum

Each of us will hear what sounds heart wrenching to us.

mary rosenblum

You shoul d not have to TELL us it is.

mary rosenblum

I f you do need to tell us that it is heart wrenching, you have now showed us enough of the story.

cherley

What about the sound of a cop car or ambulance.. Eeewa?

mary rosenblum

Bad idea to spell out any sound.

mary rosenblum

Let the reader hear what he/she thinks it sounds like.

mary rosenblum

Remember...the more you let the reader build the world, the more that world is real to the reader.

janecj333

maybe the hubby can find his girlfriend's panties in his pocket at the same moment the wife mentions the murder...when the hubby drops his juice, the wife may incorrectly suspect him of the wrong wrongdoing

mary rosenblum

Exactly, jane. It might be safer to let him put his hand in his pocket as she mentions the murder and then drop the juice without showing us the panties...

mary rosenblum

if you want to hide that clue from us.

mary rosenblum

We can find out later it was the panties that made him drop the juice. :-)

kungfumama

Is there an easy way to determine if you're adding tension or over embellishing? Other than by gut feeling?

mary rosenblum

Reader feedback will help you, kung.

mary rosenblum

It IS easy to add so much detail that the rising drama is obscured.

mary rosenblum

And it's easy to have so little detail that the rising drama is just to spare.

mary rosenblum

So much of strong writing is a balancing act...walking a line between too much and not enough.

mary rosenblum

And that, folks, is why you don't sit down and write one story and decide if you have 'talent' or not.

mary rosenblum

The biggest part of writing is...writing. Doing it. Doing it again. Again. Again. Each time getting a little closer...

mary rosenblum

to those balance points. Hey, it's better. A little better...

mary rosenblum

Oh, now I see how to do this.

mary rosenblum

Another good way to get a feel for 'enough' versus 'too much' is to stop when you find yourself...

mary rosenblum

reading a scene or chapter that has TOTALLY glued you to the page.

mary rosenblum

Go back. Read it again, but this time, analyze what that writer is doing.

mary rosenblum

Is the prose spare? How is he using his visuals?

mary rosenblum

How many details does he include? WHY couldn't you put this scene down?

mary rosenblum

WHY did it hold your attention that closely.

mary rosenblum

Then...an excellent exercise....

mary rosenblum

Close the book or magazine and rewrite the scene. Use different character names but do the exact same thing.

mary rosenblum

Then compare.

mary rosenblum

If you have an eidetic memory this will not work. :-)

mary rosenblum

But otherwise, you won't do an exact copy, but you can see how your attempt to do what that writer did compares.

cherley

In a Cozy Mystery would it be not so much glued to the page?

mary rosenblum

If your reader is not glued to the page, why should that person not put it down and read something else cherley?

mary rosenblum

Glued to the page has nothing to do with what is happening.

mary rosenblum

It has everything to do with how YOU tell the story.

geezer

A what memory?

mary rosenblum

A photographic memory, geeze. :-)

mary rosenblum

You can keep your reader glued to the page while your MC uses the bathroom!

mary rosenblum

It's how you do it.

mary rosenblum

And that is a common misconception.

mary rosenblum

"If I put a ton of violence in my story...wow! Nobody will be able to put it down. '

mary rosenblum

Not so. :-)

mary rosenblum

But seriously, copying another writer's style, voice, technique is not going to turn you into a carbon copy of that person...

mary rosenblum

but it's a nice exercise in intentionally trying something different.

mary rosenblum

Your own voice will evolve on its own.

lore alley

This question is way past what we were discussing thanks to my noncooperating computer. But... my first chapter has three scenes. The first two are pretty "flat" but the third has a good arc (plane crashes ;-). Should I make them into one scene? Take the first two out? Add some drama? (They're mostly backstory right now with some setting and character development.) Does adding internal conflict work?

mary rosenblum

Since you're writing a novel and not a short story, lore, I'd say that your first chapter structure...

mary rosenblum

of two backstory scenes and your dramatic main plot element (I assume that's what the crash is)...

mary rosenblum

work just fine as a first chapter.

mary rosenblum

Yes, you need to hold the reader through those first backstory scenes...

mary rosenblum

and you do that by creating a dramatic arc for each of those scenes.

mary rosenblum

Something important happens as we learn backstory.

mary rosenblum

I would not do a huge amount of author narrative and then begin the action...

mary rosenblum

but rather let us follow your MC as she/she does whatever and we'll learn through her thoughts/dialogue/actions about the backstory.

mary rosenblum

Think about what is to come and find some small dramatic peak...internal conflict is quite good...that has a bearing on the story.

lore alley

it's not narrative. I'm showing, not telling :-) Its just not as exciting.

mary rosenblum

That's fine, lore. It needs to hold the reader, but remember...your chapter has its OWN dramatic arc...

mary rosenblum

and the peak of that is your plane crash. So even a bit of a tense interchange over the cell phone can be enough of a peak...

mary rosenblum

or you can plant 'omens' that tell us trouble is coming.

mary rosenblum

Your MC is uneasy...she stares at the flight insurance kiosk and shivers..

mary rosenblum

Why is she even looking at it? She has never even thought about this before. Maybe it's all that worry about...

mary rosenblum

whatever.

cherley

I try to get by without much narrative but then it seems like too much dialogue.

mary rosenblum

Then you need strong beats of visuals or thought, cherley.

mary rosenblum

You might want to read the article on beats. They are a powerful tool and can keep you away from narrative.

mary rosenblum

It's in the Writing Craft: Craft section.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we’re choreographing scenes. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Lore, I would decide on something that will add a sense of drama to come in those two first scenes.

mary rosenblum

YOur MC might be reflecting on relationship problems...

mary rosenblum

suffering that premonition...might have a fight with someone on the phone...

mary rosenblum

you can create a sense of increasing tension as small events get in her way...

mary rosenblum

make her late...frustrate her.

mary rosenblum

You simply want to avoid a flat 'let's get all this backstory over with' tone.

mary rosenblum

And remember...we are willing to keep getting backstory right up until the climax of the story. :-)

mary rosenblum

It should not ALL be stuffed into the opening!

mary rosenblum

Just include the bare minimum that will allow the reader to understand ...just barely...what is going on.

mary rosenblum

Keep our curiosity aroused.

mary rosenblum

Another good exercise...one I give writing workshop students...

mary rosenblum

is to make a very boring scene...exciting.

mary rosenblum

Making breakfast.

mary rosenblum

Raking leaves.

mary rosenblum

and without introducing ANY external plot elements.

mary rosenblum

It has to all come from dialogue between characters or internal POV.

mary rosenblum

The reason that this is a good exercise...

mary rosenblum

is that you learn how to create drama through description.

mary rosenblum

Thoughts and dialogue on their own may give us the basic dramatic rise...an arguement...

mary rosenblum

our dropped glass at the mention of the murder...

mary rosenblum

but it is how our characters act that support that rising drama.

mary rosenblum

It's much easier to do, of course, if you MC is fighting off a dragon. :-)

trainer

You may have already done so Mary, (my connection's being stupid today) but could you give us an example to see what your talking about. i.e. raking leaves?

mary rosenblum

Sure trainer.

mary rosenblum

Joann stuggled with the sticky shed door. How many times had she asked Dave to fix this? It banged open and nearly fell on her butt.

mary rosenblum

Stupid trees. Stupid big yard. She snatched the rake from the tool rack, ducked as a shovel handle attacked her. Stupid husband who wanted to live in the boonies and didn't do any work. Lugging the rake she headed for the back yard.

mary rosenblum

A tide of dead leaves greeted her. She dragged the rake across the mess. Couldn't even see grass. Stupid trees!

mary rosenblum

Dragged again, slipped in one of Rover's piles. "No. No." She struggled to her feet, gagging at the smell. "I won't do it anymore. Do you hear?" She threw the rake at the house. "No more!" It soared like a spear...

mary rosenblum

straight as an arrow. The picture window shattered with the sound of crystal breaking, glittering shards sliding slow motion down the face of the house. Joann giggled, then laughed, bending over, hands on knees, laughing, crying, tears dripping down onto the wet, dead leaves.

mary rosenblum

And in that leaf raking, with only a bit of thought, you get the dramatic arc that runs from her grumpy thoughts...

mary rosenblum

to more action...struggling to rake the leaves...

mary rosenblum

to the dramatic peak of that launched rake that shatters the window...

mary rosenblum

and then slacks off a bit with her weeping...

mary rosenblum

which is where this might transition to another scene.

lore alley

wow Mary! Nice! When do we get to read the book? :-)

mary rosenblum

LOL :-)

geezer

Is this off the top of your head?

mary rosenblum

Sure, geeze.

mary rosenblum

That's why it's rough.

janecj333

the internal pov you mention is character action like stage directions, and also narrative such as 'the leaves lay almost end to end, as if placed there' that have some emotional force?

mary rosenblum

Yes, jane. Just make sure that the narrative suits your POV so that we don't have a sense of the author instruding.

mary rosenblum

Here, I simply described the leaves as a 'tide'...

mary rosenblum

searching for a word that coveyed a lot of leaves like an ocean...and figuring that Joann is not in a state of mind...

mary rosenblum

to wax poetic about those leaves. :-)

cherley

like when the people heard to earth shattering screams they should do more than go look out the window?

cherley

like drop things

mary rosenblum

People always react physically to what is going on...

mary rosenblum

either as a reaction...they duck when someone throws a punch...

mary rosenblum

or more subtly...they stiffen up when someone says something...

mary rosenblum

that has an emotional impact.

mary rosenblum

Here, I did my darndest not to TELL the reader anything about Joann's relationship with her husband...

mary rosenblum

but through her thoughts and her anger and that moment of violence when she throws the rake...

mary rosenblum

we will certainly get some inkling of what is going in her life right now...

mary rosenblum

and readers will probably get what I intend them to get...

mary rosenblum

AND this has a much stronger dramatic arc than if I had done it in narrative...

mary rosenblum

and told the readers how Joann and Dave had moved to this woodland acre a year ago...

mary rosenblum

and how Joann is a city girl who just really doen't enjoy all those outdoorsy things, but Dave was adamant about wanting to live 'out in the country'.

cherley

I've done the same mumbling. ; )

mary rosenblum

We all do, cherley. And it's VERY useful in writing. :-)

mary rosenblum

Say this was part of a story or novel I was working on.

mary rosenblum

My process of creating this scene would have gone something like this.

mary rosenblum

scene...Joann is upset over getting stuck with the leaf raking while Dave is off at a business conference.

mary rosenblum

Maybe this is building toward her illicit affair with someone or something.

mary rosenblum

And actually this is pretty much the thought process that was running through my head as I came up with this example.

mary rosenblum

Okay...she's going to rake angrily and think about how Dave isn't doing the work and she hates it.

mary rosenblum

Boring. We need a peak of drama here. One that reinforces what she is upset about.

mary rosenblum

Aha...

mary rosenblum

She loses it and throws the rake at the house...

mary rosenblum

and breaks the huge, expensive picture window...

mary rosenblum

which is kind of a nice metaphor for wanting to break the marriage.

mary rosenblum

That'll work.

mary rosenblum

I could have just had her rake the leaves and throw the rake back in the shed...

mary rosenblum

or give up and stomp inside to weep into a cup of hot chocolate...

mary rosenblum

but this peak of violence was much stronger and, I felt, made the point more clearly.

mary rosenblum

That's how you do it.

mary rosenblum

What do you want the reader to take away from this scene?

mary rosenblum

Okay, what will give this scene some dramatic power?

mary rosenblum

And if you notice...

mary rosenblum

in the segment where the window breaks...

mary rosenblum

I did not just say...the window broke...

mary rosenblum

but rather I gave you very precise details of the sound of the glass shattering, the way the glittering shards slid down the face of the house...

mary rosenblum

and those details have the effect of zooming in on that moment and accentuating the importance of that event.

mary rosenblum

I could have done the same thing as she broke the rake into pieces...

mary rosenblum

focusing on the sharp splinters of wood...

mary rosenblum

of a smear of crimson blood on her hand where she cut herself...

mary rosenblum

and ended with her laughing and sobbing as I did here.

mary rosenblum

And those focused-in details would have made the act of breaking the rake nearly as powerful as the window shattering.

janecj333

what do you think of this kind of narrative? 'Joann stood with a rake at the center of her yard, a leaf-littered expanse. Ten minutes' work produced meager results. She daydreamed that the rake might pierce the picture window, the glass sift into the leaves, and when she threw it, it was so.

mary rosenblum

This is a nice example of the narrative version of the same scene.

mary rosenblum

And it simply depends on the effect you are trying to create.

mary rosenblum

This has a distanced, dreamy feel to me. We are standing back watching Joann...

mary rosenblum

and we're probably going to learn something by observing her do these things.

mary rosenblum

Because this is much more a told story, you can use more elegant language and you're not limited to Joann's own perceptions.

mary rosenblum

But you also lack the immediate engagement that you get with limited third.

mary rosenblum

Each way of doing this has its own merits and it's own limitations.

mary rosenblum

You choose one or the other depending on what you are trying to accomplish with your readers. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon Hour.

mary rosenblum

I think we've gotten about another inch of rain, too.

mary rosenblum

Do join us tomorrow, same time same place for our casual get together.

mary rosenblum

Questions are welcome, but it's all casual...we just get together to chat about writing.

mary rosenblum

And all your Nano people are off and running.

mary rosenblum

Drop in and tell us how it's going!

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript of this in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft Forum Transcripts.

geezer

Keep it up there, please. I love my 92F weather.

mary rosenblum

Ah, I'd be jealous...but 92 is too hot for me, geeze...and my agent wants the first three chapters, synopsis, and two proposals of a new mystery series before Thanksgiving...so it had better keep on raining!

mary rosenblum

I need to keep butt in chair.

cherley

Do you know if there is a good online workshop?

mary rosenblum

I don't, cherley. sorry.

roe

gonna have to use duct tape

mary rosenblum

Ah, the motivation is there. :-)

mary rosenblum

Have a good day, all!

mary rosenblum

See you tomorrow!

 

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