Forum Transcripts

Beginnings: Setting the Scene in Motion 8/23/05

Event start time:

Tue Aug 23 12:01:57 2005

Event end time:

Tue Aug 23 13:28:10 2005



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Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about beginnings. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about beginnings today.

mary rosenblum

It's a topic we've covered before, but a lot of novice writers find that beginnings are the toughest part of any story.

mary rosenblum

And they are.

mary rosenblum

Especially if you're writing in the fantasy/sf universe, or if you mainstream story takes place in an unfamiliar location...

mary rosenblum

where you need to set up the scene for the reader.

mary rosenblum

And of course, even if you story takes place in Mainstreet USA, there is always the problem of how much backstory to include.

mary rosenblum

Readers need to know who/what/where/when of course.

mary rosenblum

Who is the character here, what is going on, when is this taking place, and where is this taking place.

mary rosenblum

The most common novice mistake is to try and do all this BEFORE the first plot element occurs.

mary rosenblum

Now in novel form, you can do this.

mary rosenblum

Your first chapter can be an introduction that sets up those four elements and introduces the first plot element by the end of the chapter...

mary rosenblum

although, I find that you have a much stronger start if you introduce your first plot element as early in the chapter as possible.

mary rosenblum

Or even introduce a major subplot element.

mary rosenblum

But in a short story, you really need to introduce your first plot element on the first manuscript page if possible..

mary rosenblum

which means within the first 100 - 150 words. That can be a real challenge.

mary rosenblum

One thing to realize is that readers are willing to wait.

mary rosenblum

Remember that fiction is interactive, unlike TV or movies or plays.

mary rosenblum

While we give the reader lots of pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that is our story...

mary rosenblum

we allow readers to fill in a lot of blank space with pieces they create.

mary rosenblum

The character my reader creates won't be quite the same as the one I see in my mind's eye...neither will the landscape, the rooms...

mary rosenblum

they'll be close enough...or should be...so that I don't totally jolt the reader out of my story...

mary rosenblum

when Reader realizes the male character he saw is actually a girl! :-)

mary rosenblum

But our two versions of that girl don't have to be identical and should not.

mary rosenblum

By allowing readers to invest in this universe along with us, we give that reader a personal stake in our universe and the story becomes theirs as well as ours...

mary rosenblum

which makes it much more powerful, potentially, than a visual tale, where everything is controlled by the producer.

mary rosenblum

Because of that, readers are willing to take those puzzle pieces one at a time and build the picture.

mary rosenblum

You don't have to complete the whole thing and THEN begin the story.

mary rosenblum

And beginnings are nothing more than a balancing act of enough versus too much detail.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about beginnings. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Start out by asking yourself: what MUST my reader know in order to understand this story.

mary rosenblum

What MUST my reader see in order to understand this scene.

mary rosenblum

We don't have to know all the details of who and where, but we need to know enough that we aren't distracted by a search for meaning.

tellastory

So is it okay to have more telling at the beginning?

mary rosenblum

Not at all, tell.

mary rosenblum

Your first couple of paragraphs are really critical, in a short story.

mary rosenblum

YOu need to hook the reader instantly (and that's what sells the story to an editor...)

mary rosenblum

Editors routinely reach for the rejection slip when they stop reading...

mary rosenblum

so the minute the story fails to engage them...it's all over.

mary rosenblum

Readers tend to stop reading at that point...and if they continue...

mary rosenblum

they may not read your next story.

redhead

We should try to grab the reader without insulting their ability to figure things out, right?

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

mary rosenblum

Don't spoon feed your readers, but give them enough puzzle pieces that they can put the story together on their own.

mary rosenblum

For example...I just worked on a really excellent SF story by one of my students.

mary rosenblum

And the story is very saleable...but he'd be rejected by any editor who saw it...

mary rosenblum

because his opening simply didn't give us a visual where.

mary rosenblum

WE had lots of SFnal terms and nothing to give us a sense of what we were looking at.

mary rosenblum

Once you got beyond this opening, the story was great.

mary rosenblum

BUT...nobody was gonna get beyond the opening.

christopher dale

How important is it to hit them in the first sentence for a novel?

christopher dale

In my novel, of which will (HONESTLY) start being rewritten, I am moving chapter 6, the murder, to chapter one. It takes the first full paragraph to really get there. The MC sitting tryingto wrok, dorrbell rings, goes and looks in peep-hole, only

christopher dale

sees back of head. Opens door, and THAT's when it starts byt the antagonist turning around...

mary rosenblum

That sounds like a nice strong start to me, Chris.

mary rosenblum

You are starting with a strong plot element, as long as that person isn't just delivering the drycleaning.

mary rosenblum

It sounds as if your 'where' isn't an alien environment, so we can wait to find out what your MC is doing, obviously we'll find out through him what the import of the person on the doorstep is...

mary rosenblum

and you can begin to fill in backstory with his thoughts or dialogue.

christopher dale

Oh he's delivering something alright.. :-) The murder of the MC's entire family...

mary rosenblum

So you drive the story very strongly forward.

mary rosenblum

That sounds like an idea start to me.

mary rosenblum

The dramatic action of the murder is going to carry readers forward strongly and nobody will need to know much of anything until afterward.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about beginnings. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

seigfried007

but what if you put too little in--esp with sci-fi/fant? you can't 'tell' people what these item/races are because your character isn't going to think about it...

mary rosenblum

Exactly, seig.

mary rosenblum

And that is where my student ran into trouble.

mary rosenblum

He had the MC doing something, but because his description simply wasn't there...we didn't have a clue what these words meant...

mary rosenblum

and thus had no clue what we were supposed to see.

mary rosenblum

He fixed it admirably by the way. :-)

mary rosenblum

And all he did...and what I do every single time I start a SF/fantasy story that is not set...

mary rosenblum

in a recognizable location...

mary rosenblum

is to have the characters DOING things that illustrate the environment.

mary rosenblum

It means thinking about a course of action for that first scene that fills in all the blanks that MUST be filled in...

mary rosenblum

for the scene to make sense.

mary rosenblum

If you need to portray a certain alien characteristic, it is your job as writer...

mary rosenblum

to craft a scene that allows that alien to demonstrate it for us.

mary rosenblum

If they routinely take a bite out another...that is their chemical conversation...

mary rosenblum

then you need to set up a scene where it happens and either make it clear that this is communication...

mary rosenblum

or involve a human POV who can comment on it and thus inform us.

mary rosenblum

I spend a LOT of time when I'm starting a story set in an alien universe.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes I need to focus on the where...other times I need to focus on the what.

mary rosenblum

In a recent story set in an asteroid miner...I needed to set the reader firmly in the asteroid belt in a ship mining asteroids...so I concentrated...

mary rosenblum

on showing the craft at work as the plot started.

mary rosenblum

In a recent story, I mostly needed the reader to understand what the MC's new career and situation were, so I set it in a bar and let him moan and grumble to a buddy about his fate.

mary rosenblum

That established the what and who.

redhead

That is so hard, when I have so much that I want them to know.

mary rosenblum

It is hard, red, and that is the biggest hurdle...learning how LITTLE you need to dribble out at a time.

mary rosenblum

We LOVE to share our wonderful worlds with our readers.

mary rosenblum

And remember the iceberg....while you, the writer, need to know the entire iceberg of backstory about your world, only that tip is going to actually stick into the story and be visible to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Most of us when we start out cram the whole iceberg into the story! :-)

mary rosenblum

It drowns the plot and pacing.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about beginnings. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

seigfried007

how long do readers wait for puzzle pieces? every odd term gets explained, but sometimes not for several chapters because it's not important to the now.

mary rosenblum

You can keep adding puzzle pieces right up until you approach your climax, seig.

mary rosenblum

Of course, you'd better hand readers the really important ones, first.

mary rosenblum

But you can still keep deepening your world as the plot progresses.

mary rosenblum

There comes a point...and I"m very aware of it now...when all the backstory is done, I can stop thinking about how to shoehorn in this or that detail...

mary rosenblum

and I can just let go and run with the plot. I love that moment!

mary rosenblum

Up until then, I have a mental list of all the things I want the reader to know.

mary rosenblum

In my most recent book, the one that will be out next year, for example, I have created...

mary rosenblum

a stable society living on four orbital platforms. I had to get in all the details about the tech, the social customs, physical problems of lining in spin-G, economics, and that's before I even approached the plot!

mary rosenblum

So I'm slipping in new details and info in every scene.

christopher dale

If you have a strong intro to characters (MC and Antogonist) inthe prologue, how important is it to reiterate some of that for those who don't/wan't READ the prologue???

mary rosenblum

Considering my shocking discovery that more than half the people I have queried so far don't READ the prolog...I would make sure...

mary rosenblum

that any really important information gets reiterated in an interesting manner, chris.

bengalrose

What about a short tag line at the top of the story that sets the time and place? Something like this: 9 December, 2207. Research base Alpha, Xanadu Regio, Titan.

mary rosenblum

I've seen that, bengal. I find that it gives the piece a bit of a 'diary' feel and I don't get as thoroughly lost in the story...it sort of jolts me out a bit...

mary rosenblum

but if you need to keep track of time, it works. In Dune, Herbert used encyclopedia entries to dump backstory into his complex universe.

mary rosenblum

It was worth the small 'break' because it would have been difficult to get it all in there otherwise.

tellastory

Do editors have a checklist as they start reading a story?

mary rosenblum

Yes and no, tell. Yes, every editor has a mental checklist, but no, it's nothing written down. Remember, editors are creatively involved in this process...

mary rosenblum

they live story as much as we do, and they live a wider variety of stories because they work with many writers.

mary rosenblum

They know what they are looking for and if you ask them, they'll give you the list. They sure don't need to write it down. And they don't do it consciously.

mary rosenblum

I have the same checklist when I work on a student or workshop story. I am looking for particular things and if I don't find them, I help the student with that issue.

christopher dale

The reason I ask is that I really poured a LOT into the prologue- this is the Desert Storm scene where the MC meets the Ant. and the MC and his freinds are sent on a mission design to fail. You really think I should bring "memories" of that back into

christopher dale

play in the story? What about those who DO read prologues??? Wopn't they go "Yeah, yeah. Bought the book, saw the movie, let's move on!!!"?

mary rosenblum

Yes, I would, Chris, but you can't replay it. I had an intense prolog in my first novel, and I did have my MC think briefly about those events once or twice later on...

mary rosenblum

they directly affected his actions. All I wanted to do was jog the reader's memory ...and it probably sent the non-readers back to take a look. :-)

mary rosenblum

IF they looked at it at all.

tellastory

Can you give us a sample of the list you look for?

mary rosenblum

Sure tell...and it's pretty much what every editor I know (and I know quite a few) looks for...

mary rosenblum

Strong start, good sense of what is going in, vivid and strong writing, strong sense of character, strong pace, I want to keep reading, I don't want to quit...

mary rosenblum

That's on, not in.

mary rosenblum

And most editors I know stop reading the minute their attention strays.

mary rosenblum

And if there is not [end] on the next line, you'll get a rejection slip...

mary rosenblum

or maybe, if the editor is almost there...a request for a revision.

mary rosenblum

Realize, folks, that it's not that editors are sadists and just want you to jump through a lot of hoops.

mary rosenblum

A LOT of people want to write.

mary rosenblum

LOTS and LOTS.

mary rosenblum

And the editor's professional reputation depends on what appears in his/her magazine, anthology, or the bookt that comes out.

mary rosenblum

If your story is weak in the middle and there are four on her desk that are similar in impact and NOT weak in the middle...

mary rosenblum

why should she spend lots of her very short time working to improve your craft when others have gotten there on their own? She'll just buy one of theirs.

mary rosenblum

They DO want you to succeed...you are their future reputation. (Every editor wants to discover the next Stephen King)...

mary rosenblum

but they figure you need to learn how to do it well, first.

gskearney

What's wrong with just making it the first chapter?

mary rosenblum

That's a very good quesiton, gary, and for that reason, I no longer use prologs.

mary rosenblum

Unless they are simply teasers.

mary rosenblum

I did that with one of my mysteries when I knew that nothing really dramatic was going to occur until about the third or fourth chapter...

mary rosenblum

the plot got underway, but no murder until later. Not usual in mystery.

mary rosenblum

So I did a little prolog that hinted of dark things to come. If someone didn't read it, no big deal. DIdn't matter.

mary rosenblum

If they did, it would whet their appetite a bit.

cosmos

I'm working on a piece to send out about making freezer dinners. Here's the opening. I'd appreciate suggestions and help to make it better. The title is TOO BUSY TO COOK? "Finding the time to cook a nutritious meal for your family can be a challenge. You can offer a solution so your family can eat healthy meals and maintain an active life style by cooking large meals once a week to make homemade TV dinners destined for the freezer."

mary rosenblum

That's pretty straight forward narrative, cosmos. You might be better off to start with a nice, vivid anecdote.

mary rosenblum

Show us a family at the table, complaining about the boxed dinner or leftovers...

mary rosenblum

and then tell us that Mom could have made TV dinners.

mary rosenblum

Many nonfiction pieces begin with a vivid bit of showing (an anecdote) before shifting into narrative.

mary rosenblum

It's a good way to hook readers.

cosmos

So would that fix it and then follow by with this first paragraph.

mary rosenblum

THat should make it a sharper hook, cosmos.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about beginnings. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

seigfried007

what about 'why'? When do we answer that one? ;-)

mary rosenblum

Seig, you don't need to give the full answer to THAT one until your climax. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's fine if readers know earlier, but you don't have to give them the full picture even then.

mary rosenblum

You can reveal some heretofore unsuspected things in your resolution.

mary rosenblum

In the forthcoming novel, you get the very last 'why' puzzle piece AFTER the climax, and shortly before the end of the book.

christopher dale

so I could make my prologue Chapter 1, and then skip ahead ten years (or so) later and pick up withthe murder???

mary rosenblum

Sure Chris. I would work on your transition. End your first chapter with something...a premonition on the part of the MC or someone or some event...

mary rosenblum

that foreshadows that murder in Two.

mary rosenblum

Then, of course, you'll have to very carefully set the 'when' on page one...BEFORE the MC answers the door.

mary rosenblum

That way, readers will make the leap from the first scene to the murder without scrambling around wondering what is going on, why, and to whom?

christopher dale

I DO end it with the MC saying.. "“Figures.” Viper said. “If we ever cross paths again…” Viper let it rest...."

mary rosenblum

Hard to tell out of context if that works or not, Chris...but if you end with the MC feeling that shiver of future...we should make the leap just fine.

sailor

If you have a prologue, then that is your start, not the first chapter. Is that where your hook goes, or do you then need two hooks, one for prologue, one for first chapter, for those who skip the prologue?

mary rosenblum

I would not do a prolog unless it is very powerful. Then, I would do a strong hook in chapter one, the same as if you had no prolog.

mary rosenblum

I worked on a book for a workshop at a con where the writer had a GREAT prolog..very powerful and dramatic but made NO sense.

mary rosenblum

And realize...you do not need backstory in a prolog...it should not be there.

mary rosenblum

It IS backstory to your novel.

mary rosenblum

BUt in this case, the first chapter was one, long, boring scene setting string of flat action and thought.

mary rosenblum

It was going to cost her a sale, especially since chapter two didn't have much more of a dramatic arc.

tellastory

Do you use the same settings over and over again?

mary rosenblum

I don't. I often set several stories in the same universe, but not in the same exact setting.

mary rosenblum

Even in my mystery series, I had the story take place in different locations.

mary rosenblum

I'd bore myself, using the same settings over and over. :-) I see no reason to bore myself.

seigfried007

if the storyline spans several years, is it better to put the date line at the beginning of the chap? esp if chapter breaks often symbolize time breaks?

mary rosenblum

You can do that, seig. It's an accepted method. Myself, I don't do it. I'd rather write a strong transition into the start of the new chapter and set the reader firmly in that time and place...

mary rosenblum

and a lot of readers, myself included, alas, tend to skip the dates. :-)

mary rosenblum

I just read a ms to write a blurb for the author and kept getting lost.

mary rosenblum

He did the dateline thing and I just don't read 'em.

mary rosenblum

Had to keep going back and making myself compare dates to last chapter..I could never remember what the date of the last chapter was.

mary rosenblum

It really detracted from the book, in my opinion.

mary rosenblum

I'd rather make it clear in the first couple of paragraphs WHEN and WHERE we are.

christopher dale

axing the prologue and just making it Chapter 1???

mary rosenblum

I haven't read your ms, Chris, and I can't really advise you, but if your prolog matters to your story, it might be better off as a chapter.

fiction_scribe

what about when chapters alternate timelines

mary rosenblum

That gets more sticky. I"ve seen some very nice parallel plotlines done with labels...

mary rosenblum

There, it can help the readers as they bounce from, say, historical past to present.

mary rosenblum

Louise Marley did one recently, where she skipped from a POV in the time of Ben Franklin, to an artist in modern USA.

mary rosenblum

There, as I recall, the POV shift kept you aware of which time you were in. She didn't need labels at all.

mary rosenblum

I've seen it done where the sections were labled by where they took place.

mary rosenblum

One plotline might take place in t 1880 San Francisco (and was labeled San Francisco)...

mary rosenblum

and the other, say, 20005 Manhattan (and labeled accordingly).

mary rosenblum

If that's the best way for your story, do it, but it does provide a very notceable break that jolts your reader temporarily out of the story.

mary rosenblum

So I wouldn't do it unless you have good reason.

mary rosenblum

Don't do it because you think it adds to the story. :-)

mary rosenblum

Realize there is a bit of a cost for using it, but not a prohibitive one, if that's your best tool.

seigfried007

like the time dsparity between alternate planes of existence?

mary rosenblum

YOu could do something like 'June' and 'October' or whatever, seig.

mary rosenblum

The weather or flora or fauna might also tell us.

mary rosenblum

ASk yourself this:

mary rosenblum

Can my reader immediately tell when/where we are without my help?

mary rosenblum

In Louise's Glass Harmonica, you could. The POV told you when/where you were.

christopher dale

one last question (from me) on prologues - I read a LOT of AA, and all the ones I read tend to have a prolgoue. Might it be taht AAs tend to use prologues to set up the backstory so they can jump right into the plot?!?!?!? Or should I still consider

mary rosenblum

Yes, the thrilllers/action adventure do tend to run to prologs and often they are the dramatic action that serves as backstory to the main action.

mary rosenblum

Certainly if you are writing within a particular genre, you need to observe the conventions of that particular genre.

mary rosenblum

Each has its won.

mary rosenblum

own.

mary rosenblum

I'm talking in generalities that apply to all fiction, but remember, rules are not cast in stone in the fiction universe.

mary rosenblum

If breaking one makes your book much stronger. Break it.

mary rosenblum

Just be sure that breaking it DOES make your book stronger. :-) Or story, for that matter.

bengalrose

seems like Fantasy tends toward prologs too

mary rosenblum

And kind of boring ones, too, bengal. When I queried fantasy readers at a recent convention about reading prologues, I got about 80 percent 'no'.

mary rosenblum

If they're not reading 'em, why put 'em in there?

cosmos

Is this better? Or should I show it with dialogue? "The mother of the house is away at a PTA meeting and didn't have time to prepare dinner. Eight year old Johnny opens the refrigerator for the third time in 10 minutes and finally settles on mashed potatoes. The father eyes the leftover chicken from last night and never eats vegetables without prompting. Sally, 14, opens the fridge asking, "Is this all there is?" and grabs a diet soda. Does this happen at your house? The mother could have made homemade TV dinners and then everyone would have been happy.

mary rosenblum

That's MUCH better cosmos! We see the scene and can relate to it.

mary rosenblum

You are not lecturing us!

mary rosenblum

Nice change.

bengalrose

good point ;-)

mary rosenblum

-)

seigfried007

At the beginning of my story, the characters are leaving a train station to meet an informant who tells them where to find food. how do i explain the why htey're searching for food--only a mini-sub-plot, mary

mary rosenblum

You may simply need to begin somewhere else.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about beginnings. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

seigfried007

no matter where i start, there's going to be mounds of backstory that'll have to be explained later. I was hoping the need for food (plus the subsequent issue of police entanglement) would be enough for readers to wait (or realize that apparently humans and this other race don't get along

mary rosenblum

That sounds very doable, seig. YOu can fill in more details of why later on.

mary rosenblum

If the relationship between aliens and people is most important, then this might be the perfect start.

tkat_2

Mary, I just wanted to announce that The League of Extraordinary Revisionists, an on-line writers support group on yahoo.com was listed in The Writer Magazine Group Section just recently. I'm unsure whether it was in the magazine or on-line though.

mary rosenblum

WAy to go, tkat!

mary rosenblum

Is this a group your in?

mary rosenblum

The main thing about openings is to embed your who/what/where/why details in action...

mary rosenblum

so that you don't tell your readers what is going on.

mary rosenblum

YOur opening might very well be perfect, Seig...

mary rosenblum

if your characters show us the relationship between aliens and humans as they scrounge for food...

mary rosenblum

and we learn some why details as they talk and your POV character thinks or remembers.

mary rosenblum

Readers will help you out.

mary rosenblum

Give them the opening of your story and then ask them to tell you 'who,what, where, when'

mary rosenblum

See if they are seeing the same scene.

mary rosenblum

This has been a fun Oregon hour. I'm off to have lunch with Anne McCaffery, who is visiting from Ireland.

mary rosenblum

She has always been one of my favorite SF writers and I haven't seen her in years.

gskearney

Say, Hi! She's one of my favorites. --gk

mary rosenblum

I will, Gary. She's a very neat lady.

mary rosenblum

Work on those beginnings all!

mary rosenblum

See you tomorrow for our casual chat.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts in the usual place.

mary rosenblum

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