Forum Transcripts

All The Different POVs: What Are They, and Why Use Them? 7/30/04

Event start time:

Tue Jul 27 15:18:25 2004

Event end time:

Fri Jul 30 20:33:44 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Have a good day!

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I hope you've all had a good week!

mary rosenblum

I've seen a lot of confusion over POV in student ms, so I thought this would be a good time to really define all the various Points of View.

mary rosenblum

Each one has strengths and each one has weaknesses...

mary rosenblum

and it will add a LOT to your article or story if you use the POV that is best for that story...

mary rosenblum

rather than simply using whatever you are in the habit of using

mary rosenblum

And as a writer, it is worth your while to learn to write in different POVs.

mary rosenblum

Like an actor who can ONLY play one type of character...

mary rosenblum

if you always use the same voice and POV, you really limit yourself.

shayon-joseph

Mary, just wanted to let you know I went out and brought the book you mentioned last time: Orson Scott Card's "Characters and Viewpoints"; thanks for the suggestion.

mary rosenblum

Good for you, shayon. It's worth the money, in my opinion. And Card does a very good job of teaching limited third POV.

younger

Is the rule always have only one POV in a short story?

mary rosenblum

Well, not it's not a RULE younger. There is only one RULE is writing...it must work.

mary rosenblum

But it is more difficult to write a strong short story with mulitple POV.

mary rosenblum

You can certainly do it, but can you do it so that story is compelling?

kayo

I stopped reading the Jensen-LaHaye series because there were too many POVs. It didn't increase the suspense for me after a while.

mary rosenblum

What happens in a case like that is that we shift POV so often that we don't develop intimacy with any one character...

mary rosenblum

so we really don't care about these people.

mary rosenblum

So if the plot isn't really compelling, we shrug and move one.

younger

tell me about it - I had hubby read and he wanted more

younger

neither character was developed quite enough

mary rosenblum

That's pretty typical, younger. And you know what? Nearly always you can tell the story better through one POV than two.

barbg

can you change pov each paragraph, or only chapt. breaks

mary rosenblum

You can change each paragraph if you're a good enough writer not to lose the reader, barbg.

mary rosenblum

I'm not.

mary rosenblum

The benefit of switching at a chapter break is that it is a clear boundary.

mary rosenblum

When you start switching paragraph by paragraph, what you are really using is omniscient.

mary rosenblum

And the reader ends up sort of like a border collie chasing a tennis ball...

mary rosenblum

always one bound behind the ball...

younger

I totally understand what you are saying Mary, but it really

younger

to have to get rid of (in my opinion) really good dialogue

mary rosenblum

Well, you know, younger, probably the biggest difference between a published pro and a novice...

mary rosenblum

is that the pro axes lots of really good dialogue, description, and the like...

mary rosenblum

when they don't add to the story. Words have no value. The STORY has value.

mary rosenblum

When we start, we all love our words.

mary rosenblum

Later on, we learn to love the story and the words are just legos that we snap together to build castles.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

alanza

How do we decide which POV will be most effective?

mary rosenblum

Well, let's start out by looking at what POV is and what I mean by different POVs alanza.

mary rosenblum

Point of View character, or POV character, is the character who tells the story (first person), or through whose eyes we see the story unfold (limited third person POV)...

mary rosenblum

but there are several types of Point of View.

mary rosenblum

To begin with we have three main divisions.

mary rosenblum

First person: I went to the store and there I saw the monster.

mary rosenblum

Third person: Jane went to the store and there she saw the monster.

mary rosenblum

And second person. You went to the store and there you saw the monster.

mary rosenblum

Normally we use first or third, because readers HATE being told what they did, when they didn't do it!

mary rosenblum

But we have two first person POVs and four third person POVs.

mary rosenblum

First person: We have Direct and Narrative.

mary rosenblum

Narrative First Person: The POV character tells us about a story that happened in the past.

mary rosenblum

It is sort of that 'fairy tale voice'. Once upon a time I entered the wizard's castle. I was very young at the time and I didn't know what dangers lay inside. I was pretty brave and stupid.

mary rosenblum

Now we have the Direct first person. Our character is talking to us/himself as he lives the story.

mary rosenblum

I sneak off after chores because Margo's snotty words about me being...

mary rosenblum

too young for an adventure really sting.

mary rosenblum

So I just walk across the drawbridge you know? Push the gate open, rusty hinges and all and just...go in. And it's really spooky inside.

mary rosenblum

If you notice, the two MCs are telling the same story.

mary rosenblum

One is the boy telling as he enters the castle...

mary rosenblum

and the other is the old man telling about his boyhood adventure.

mary rosenblum

They both work.

mary rosenblum

Strengths? Well, in direct, you don't know if the character survives.

mary rosenblum

We could turn a page and find a note from the author.... THese pages were found with a boy's pair of boots...

mary rosenblum

next to a pile of bones in a dragon's lair.

mary rosenblum

Oops. Our mc got eaten!

mary rosenblum

But in the narrative first, we KNOW he didn't get eaten! He's telling us the story years later.

mary rosenblum

So if suspense matters, direct is stronger.

mary rosenblum

BUT...your 'old man voice' may be much more interesting than the boy's voice, plus the old man narrator can poke fun at his boy self...

mary rosenblum

and add bits of wisdom he's learned since that will add a lot to the story.

mary rosenblum

So if suspense is not an issue and your narrative character has a good voice, go with narrative.

mary rosenblum

We can find a 'once upon a time' story very comforting.

mary rosenblum

LIke a bedtime story, the author promises us an entertaining read that won't scare us or leave us mourning a dead character.

mary rosenblum

We're safe. The character survived. We can enjoy but not end up on the edges of our seats.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

So those are our two first person voices.

mary rosenblum

I myself find that I prefer present tense for the 'direct' first person. It gives the prose a more immediate feel. But you can do past tense, too.

mary rosenblum

Now we have FOUR third person POVs.

mary rosenblum

Narrative Third

mary rosenblum

Limited Third

mary rosenblum

Omniscient Third

mary rosenblum

Cinematic

mary rosenblum

Narrative third is the same as Narrative First, only the character telling the story is the author, not a character in the story.

mary rosenblum

This is one of the two voices most novice writers use.

mary rosenblum

The author tells the reader the story.

mary rosenblum

Next we have Limited Third. In Limited, the story is told through the perception of the MC.

mary rosenblum

The scene is described from the perspective of the MC's eyes, we hear only what she hears, we know only what she knows.

mary rosenblum

If the bad guy is behind her, we don't know it, because she can't see him, so neither can we.

mary rosenblum

Our next POV, another 'beginner POV' is omniscient. Here we skip from 'head to head'. We are in Martha's POV looking at Tom and thinking he's a dish, then we're in Tom's POV thinking Martha is too bossy for him, then we're in Sally's POV wishing Tom would notice her,...get the drift?

mary rosenblum

If we want to know what a character is thinking or seeing, we just do into his/her POV. So we end up skipping around like a butterfly.

mary rosenblum

Finally, we have Cinematic POV.

mary rosenblum

Here, we emulate a movie camera.

mary rosenblum

We don't know what ANYBODY thinks we are in NO ONE's POV.

mary rosenblum

We are watching everybody up on a giant screen.

mary rosenblum

This has its uses but they are very limited.

mary rosenblum

It is great for battle scenes, natural disasters, any time you want to see a huge expanse of landscape, one larger than any one character will be able to take in.

mary rosenblum

If you want to briefly show something that your POV can't see, and you NEED to show it (as opposed to just wanting to show it), then cinematic is better than hopping into a new POV for a few sentences.

mary rosenblum

It would be very difficult to make a story work if it was written entirely in cinematic. Not impossible, but not easy to keep the reader engaged.

mary rosenblum

So what are the strengths and weaknesses here?

mary rosenblum

Okay: Third Person Narrative:

mary rosenblum

Weakness -- the author reminds us with every breath that she is TELLING us a story, we are not living that adventure.

mary rosenblum

What is more fun? Riding a merry go round or listening to your neighbor tell you...

mary rosenblum

how much fun she had riding one?

mary rosenblum

Strength -- you can add an interesting voice that adds interest to a piece that might be weak on plot or characterization.

mary rosenblum

If nothing much is going on, action wise, maybe a strong narrative voice and some insightful asides by the author...

mary rosenblum

will really help this piece.

mary rosenblum

BUt remember...if you write narrative third person, YOU are a character as much as your ...

mary rosenblum

first person narrator is. You need to make your voice interesting.

mary rosenblum

I see a lot of droning narrators. SNORE>>>>>>

mary rosenblum

Okay, Limited Third.

mary rosenblum

This is the strongest POV for most uses, in my opinion. Because you sit yourself behind the character's eyes and describe the scene...

mary rosenblum

from that perspective only...it allows us to step in there with you and become the character.

mary rosenblum

We identify with that character and we begin to live that adventure along with him/her.

mary rosenblum

This is the POV that most often allows your reader to forget they are reading and start experiencing that Afrian veldt or wherever you are.

mary rosenblum

If you use your character's vocabularly, idioms, and voice to describe the setting, it will deepen our sense of being onstage with that character.

mary rosenblum

The weakness here is that we only know what that character knows.

mary rosenblum

If your plot demands that the reader have information that your MC does not...it can be tricky.

mary rosenblum

Omniscient POV. This is neck and neck with narrative third for 'most used by beginners' and is a very weak POV.

mary rosenblum

Not a good choice, nineteen times out of twenty.

mary rosenblum

Because nearly all readers love characters over all...the constant head hopping keeps us distant from all the characters.

mary rosenblum

Instead of becoming intimate with a single POV or a couple of POVs in a novel, we have a nodding acquaintanceship with all the characters.

mary rosenblum

So they're like the woman who usually rides the bus you take to work.

mary rosenblum

You chat about the weather, you know she has a cat, but you're not going to count her among your close friends, or probably risk your life to save her.

mary rosenblum

Now it does have its uses.

mary rosenblum

If you have a strongly plot driven story and we don't have to like any of the characters for the plot to work...

mary rosenblum

then omniscient may be just right.

mary rosenblum

You see it quite a bit in literary fiction, but in much literary fiction, we are not asked to care about the characters, but rather to examine them...

mary rosenblum

like specimines.

mary rosenblum

If the strenght of your story lies in what we see and hear and not our caring about the characters, then that can work quit well.

mary rosenblum

But most often, I see stories where the author intends us to care about the MC, but the omniscient head hopping keeps us distanced.

younger

Do you have any comments about girl writing from boy POV?

mary rosenblum

Oh, I cross gender in my POVs all the time, younger. :-)

mary rosenblum

Nothing wrong with it at all. Characterization is characterization. Your boy should be a boy. Who cares who the author is.

mary rosenblum

Now do realize that if you write in the first person, the reader will ALWAYS assume that first person mc is the same gender as the author...

mary rosenblum

so if he or she is NOT make it clear on PAGE ONE.

mary rosenblum

I have a lovely illustration for a story that has appeared in my hardcover collection...

mary rosenblum

and the artist drew a teen girl. The mc is a boy, but the face was androgynous enough to use.

mary rosenblum

Gave some people in the business a few good laughs. An editor friend of mine presented me with the original illustration...which, uncropped, shows the mistake clearly! LOL

mary rosenblum

I learned MY lesson!

younger

Good, because I seem to veer in that direction often!

younger

Can you give an example of how to make that clear?

mary rosenblum

It can be difficult.

mary rosenblum

The simplest way is to have another character make some kind of statement or reference that makes gender clear ("Hey, boy, get over here)...

mary rosenblum

or have someone use the character's name. And for heaven's sake don't give him an androgynous name like Jess!

mary rosenblum

One little bit of social commentary here...

mary rosenblum

Most women writers do male POV all the time.

mary rosenblum

Very few male writers do female POV. No kidding.

younger

I was just going to ask- if I want to keep the name secret

younger

until the end, ?

mary rosenblum

That is darned easy to do in first person...in fact it is VERY hard at times to give your POV character a name in first person...

mary rosenblum

if nobody has a reason to say it!

mary rosenblum

But realize that names are part of characterization and you have to work hard..

mary rosenblum

to hide it. It rarely works in third person, by the way.

mary rosenblum

Oh yes...that is one thing you can do in first that you cannot do in third ---

mary rosenblum

Lie to the reader.

mary rosenblum

If YOU lie to the reader, the reader is angry at you.

mary rosenblum

If your first person POV lies to the reader, that is the character, not you, and the reader doesn't blame you.

shayon-joseph

Mary, from your experience, do you know immediately what POV you'll write your story from, OR does it develop over some time?

mary rosenblum

I never really do until I start, shayon.

mary rosenblum

In third person I rarely use anything but limited third or direct first in short fiction...

mary rosenblum

although I'll use cinematic in novels when needed.

mary rosenblum

I do the occasional narrative first, but my narrative third I use only for nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

Limited third is my default voice.

mary rosenblum

But when I begin a story, if it doesn't flow strongly, I'll try again in first person.

mary rosenblum

And sometimes I know from the story that I need to use first.

mary rosenblum

My next Asimov story, "Skin Deep' is written in direct first.

mary rosenblum

And I knew before I started that I should use it because most of the story is internal monologue...

mary rosenblum

and that first is stronger than a whole lot of thought!

mary rosenblum

The story doesn't have much action and only a little dialogue..

mary rosenblum

and without that strong character voice it would be very weak...

mary rosenblum

but the character's voice adds interest and keeps it tight.

deb1234

Can you give an example of the internal monologue versus the thought?

mary rosenblum

Sure deb.

mary rosenblum

I don't know know, he thought as he paced the floor. Maybe I should go back home, give it up. Maybe I'm not mean to be an artist. He stalked over to the refrigerator and opened it, stared into it for awhile, then let the door slam closed. But what would he do if he went home? Work in the store with Dad...

mary rosenblum

That's a third person limited scene where our character is simply thinking and pacing.

mary rosenblum

This is the same scene in first person:

mary rosenblum

I don't know. Maybe I shoul djust go home. Give it up. I go over to the fridge, open it. Looking for beer, but Sandi drank it all, the slut. Slam it. I'm kidding. What's at home? Standing at a counter, handing over boxes of irrigation valves to stupid soybean farmers who think I'm a freak.

mary rosenblum

Now these are very different and yet the same and they illustrate what you can and can't do with both POVs.

mary rosenblum

We see more visuals in the 3rd version because I could show them to you...but our POV char isn't thinking about what the room looks like.

mary rosenblum

Third is better for showing scenery than first.

mary rosenblum

But we get more of the character's feelings about things, more details about his thoughts.

mary rosenblum

In first.

mary rosenblum

I could do that in the third version, but I would have to add so many words that the scene would seem very slow and wordy.

mary rosenblum

If you only have a little thought and you have a lot of great visuals to show...stick with third.

mary rosenblum

If it's all thought and the visuals aren't important, try first.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

shayon-joseph

I have a novel project I'm working; in it, one of the characters I want to use as POV character dies in middle of novel. I thought since I wouldn't be able to use his POV throughout, I tried omniscent 3rd, now story feels much less intimate. Is it safe to change POV after this character's death?

mary rosenblum

Of course, Shayon.

mary rosenblum

Actually, most novels benefit from multiple POV characters...

mary rosenblum

you can show the reader more things, get a wider sense of what is going on.

mary rosenblum

Because I started as a short story writer, it has taken me quite some time to get comfortable with multiple POV in novel...

mary rosenblum

but my work is better for using them.

mary rosenblum

You could use your 'second' MC as a strong secondary POV in the first half of the book..

mary rosenblum

then let that POV become your main POV for the second half.

mary rosenblum

But I would caution you to make us love that secondary before your main POV dies, or you may lose your readers right there. We need to care about the second or we'll be mad at you and quit.

marly

When writing a novella, is it better to stick with one POV?

mary rosenblum

Novellas are quite long, marly...18,000 -40,000 words.

mary rosenblum

It depends on your story, but you have plenty of room to create two characters there.

mary rosenblum

But one will work just fine, too.

deb1234

How long should a piece be before you can properly use multiple POVs?

mary rosenblum

There's no set length, deb. You can have two POVs in a 2000 word short short if the plot is the driving force.

mary rosenblum

The story has to work.

mary rosenblum

If the story needs us to care deeply about one character and we're in three different POVs, it may not work.

mary rosenblum

If we don't really need to care much about any character than those three POVs may work just fine.

younger

In my story, there is a car wreck & he pulls her out - it has detailed scenery, but also a lot of his thoughts - which should I go with?

mary rosenblum

Try both and see which one takes off for you.

shayon-joseph

The second MC is a child in beginning of story; not certain if I can use his POV due to his age. Any thoughts on POV of younger characters?

mary rosenblum

I use 'em all the time, Shayon, and some of my awards were won for child POVs. :-)

mary rosenblum

The really important thing is they have to be kids...

mary rosenblum

not adults wearing a kid's skin and a mask.

mary rosenblum

But that's basic characterization.

mary rosenblum

If your POV is a sailor, then he needs to talk, think, and act like one, not like college grad with a sailor's hat on.

mary rosenblum

By the way, I posted an article on the various third person POVs on the website this week...

mary rosenblum

In Writing Craft: The Plot Thickens.

mary rosenblum

It includes examples and covers a lot of what I talked about here tonight.

mary rosenblum

My main advice is to avoid narrative third and omniscient POV.

mary rosenblum

These are inherently weak POVs and tend to be the 'default' for novice writers.

shayon-joseph

Mary, when you say "making reader care about character(s)" do you mean through the action of the story, the thoughts of the character, comments made about said character by another character? Or do you just mean through the usual line of the story itself.

mary rosenblum

All of those things contribute to our caring, shayon.

mary rosenblum

What makes us care about characters are what I call ''velcro traits'.

mary rosenblum

As the character reveals himself/herself to us in the story, interacting, reacting, dealing with the plot...

mary rosenblum

and as we find out about that character...

mary rosenblum

we discover traits that we identify with. Hey, she likes dogs. She hates authority figures, she's afraid of failure..gee she's a lot like me...

mary rosenblum

How do we become friends with someone? Usually it is someone whose personality traits...

mary rosenblum

suit our own. So to with characters.

mary rosenblum

Which is why good characterization...giving your character a rich spectrum of personal details...

mary rosenblum

makes for a strong character/reader bond.

mary rosenblum

The more we know about that person, the more likely we are to feel 'he's like me'...'she's like me' and to want that person...and by association..US...succeed!

mary rosenblum

There are lots of universal character traits that are shared by LOTS of people.

mary rosenblum

Fear of failure. Desire to please mom or dad, desire to succeed...

mary rosenblum

a sense of responsibility, generosity, a need to be loved, a need to feel safe...

mary rosenblum

The more your character reveals these universals, the more readers will feel..ah..like me...a friend....

deb1234

How do you decide which is going to make the better story in regards to plot vs. character driven so that you'll know which POV to use?

mary rosenblum

That depends on each individual story, deb.

mary rosenblum

I have to weigh the events I plan to include, the point I am making..

mary rosenblum

what is going to work better as a driving force? The character's conflict and resolutio or the external conflict and resolution?

mary rosenblum

I just sent off a plot driven magic realism piece...about magic in the everyday world.

mary rosenblum

While I usually write character driven stories...this time, the point seemed to be better made...

mary rosenblum

by an external conflict and resolution...ie, a plot driven story.

mary rosenblum

The character's personal conflict/resolution supports the main plot, but is secondary to it.

mary rosenblum

I could have done it the other way, but it would have been too long and not strong enough for the length, I thought.

mary rosenblum

This has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

shayon-joseph

Any tips on smooth transitions between multiple POV's? Also, I remember someone saying third person is good to tone down violence---how would a transition from a character's POV make it to third person? The violence I've plotted out is very intense and I need a buffer between the action and the reader to take the edge off.

mary rosenblum

Actually, Shayon, violence is much more vivid in third person.

mary rosenblum

think about the last traumatic event you experienced..a fall, an accident...

mary rosenblum

how much detail did you actually notice? The MC has to TELL us what is happening.

mary rosenblum

But in third person, as long as we use the character's voice, we can include more and more vivid details and bring that gore up close and personal.

mary rosenblum

As to transitions..in a novel, try real hard to use chapter breaks, shayon.

mary rosenblum

That is your best way to do it.

mary rosenblum

If you must switch POV within a story, just try very very hard to make it crystal clear to the reader what you are doing!

mary rosenblum

It is VERY hard to keep your reader with you when you switch POV within a scene or chapter.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript of this in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, all, and I"ll see you Sunday at our open chat..

mary rosenblum

5 PM Pacific, 6 mt, 7 central, and 8 PM east coast.

mary rosenblum

That's a time to just get together and talk about whatever.

mary rosenblum

Good night, all!

mary rosenblum

Write well!

 

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