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mary rosenblum
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Have a good day!
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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all!
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and
more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
|
I hope you've all had a good
week!
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mary rosenblum
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I've seen a lot of confusion
over POV in student ms, so I thought this would be a good time to really
define all the various Points of View.
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mary rosenblum
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Each one has strengths and
each one has weaknesses...
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mary rosenblum
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and it will add a LOT to your
article or story if you use the POV that is best for that story...
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mary rosenblum
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rather than simply using
whatever you are in the habit of using
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mary rosenblum
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And as a writer, it is worth
your while to learn to write in different POVs.
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mary rosenblum
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Like an actor who can ONLY
play one type of character...
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mary rosenblum
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if you always use the same
voice and POV, you really limit yourself.
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shayon-joseph
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Mary, just wanted to let you
know I went out and brought the book you mentioned last time: Orson Scott
Card's "Characters and Viewpoints"; thanks for the suggestion.
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mary rosenblum
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Good for you, shayon. It's
worth the money, in my opinion. And Card does a very good job of teaching
limited third POV.
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younger
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Is the rule always have only one
POV in a short story?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, not it's not a RULE
younger. There is only one RULE is writing...it must work.
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mary rosenblum
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But it is more difficult to
write a strong short story with mulitple POV.
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mary rosenblum
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You can certainly do it, but
can you do it so that story is compelling?
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kayo
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I stopped reading the
Jensen-LaHaye series because there were too many POVs. It didn't increase
the suspense for me after a while.
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mary rosenblum
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What happens in a case like
that is that we shift POV so often that we don't develop intimacy with any
one character...
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mary rosenblum
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so we really don't care about
these people.
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mary rosenblum
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So if the plot isn't really
compelling, we shrug and move one.
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younger
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tell me about it - I had hubby
read and he wanted more
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younger
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neither character was developed
quite enough
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mary rosenblum
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That's pretty typical,
younger. And you know what? Nearly always you can tell the story better
through one POV than two.
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barbg
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can you change pov each
paragraph, or only chapt. breaks
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mary rosenblum
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You can change each paragraph
if you're a good enough writer not to lose the reader, barbg.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not.
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mary rosenblum
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The benefit of switching at a
chapter break is that it is a clear boundary.
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mary rosenblum
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When you start switching
paragraph by paragraph, what you are really using is omniscient.
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mary rosenblum
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And the reader ends up sort of
like a border collie chasing a tennis ball...
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mary rosenblum
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always one bound behind the
ball...
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younger
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I totally understand what you
are saying Mary, but it really
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younger
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to have to get rid of (in my
opinion) really good dialogue
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you know, younger,
probably the biggest difference between a published pro and a novice...
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mary rosenblum
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is that the pro axes lots of
really good dialogue, description, and the like...
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mary rosenblum
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when they don't add to the
story. Words have no value. The STORY has value.
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mary rosenblum
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When we start, we all love our
words.
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mary rosenblum
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Later on, we learn to love the
story and the words are just legos that we snap together to build castles.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and
more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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alanza
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How do we decide which POV will
be most effective?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, let's start out by
looking at what POV is and what I mean by different POVs alanza.
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mary rosenblum
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Point of View character, or
POV character, is the character who tells the story (first person), or
through whose eyes we see the story unfold (limited third person POV)...
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mary rosenblum
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but there are several types of
Point of View.
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mary rosenblum
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To begin with we have three
main divisions.
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mary rosenblum
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First person: I went to the
store and there I saw the monster.
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mary rosenblum
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Third person: Jane went to the
store and there she saw the monster.
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mary rosenblum
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And second person. You went to
the store and there you saw the monster.
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mary rosenblum
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Normally we use first or
third, because readers HATE being told what they did, when they didn't do
it!
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mary rosenblum
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But we have two first person
POVs and four third person POVs.
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mary rosenblum
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First person: We have Direct
and Narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative First Person: The
POV character tells us about a story that happened in the past.
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mary rosenblum
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It is sort of that 'fairy tale
voice'. Once upon a time I entered the wizard's castle. I was very young at
the time and I didn't know what dangers lay inside. I was pretty brave and
stupid.
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mary rosenblum
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Now we have the Direct first
person. Our character is talking to us/himself as he lives the story.
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mary rosenblum
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I sneak off after chores
because Margo's snotty words about me being...
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mary rosenblum
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too young for an adventure
really sting.
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mary rosenblum
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So I just walk across the
drawbridge you know? Push the gate open, rusty hinges and all and just...go
in. And it's really spooky inside.
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mary rosenblum
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If you notice, the two MCs are
telling the same story.
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mary rosenblum
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One is the boy telling as he
enters the castle...
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mary rosenblum
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and the other is the old man
telling about his boyhood adventure.
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mary rosenblum
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They both work.
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mary rosenblum
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Strengths? Well, in direct,
you don't know if the character survives.
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mary rosenblum
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We could turn a page and find
a note from the author.... THese pages were found with a boy's pair of
boots...
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mary rosenblum
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next to a pile of bones in a
dragon's lair.
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mary rosenblum
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Oops. Our mc got eaten!
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mary rosenblum
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But in the narrative first, we
KNOW he didn't get eaten! He's telling us the story years later.
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mary rosenblum
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So if suspense matters, direct
is stronger.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...your 'old man voice' may
be much more interesting than the boy's voice, plus the old man narrator
can poke fun at his boy self...
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mary rosenblum
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and add bits of wisdom he's
learned since that will add a lot to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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So if suspense is not an issue
and your narrative character has a good voice, go with narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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We can find a 'once upon a
time' story very comforting.
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mary rosenblum
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LIke a bedtime story, the
author promises us an entertaining read that won't scare us or leave us
mourning a dead character.
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mary rosenblum
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We're safe. The character
survived. We can enjoy but not end up on the edges of our seats.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and
more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So those are our two first
person voices.
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mary rosenblum
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I myself find that I prefer
present tense for the 'direct' first person. It gives the prose a more
immediate feel. But you can do past tense, too.
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mary rosenblum
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Now we have FOUR third person
POVs.
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative Third
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mary rosenblum
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Limited Third
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mary rosenblum
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Omniscient Third
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mary rosenblum
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Cinematic
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative third is the same as
Narrative First, only the character telling the story is the author, not a
character in the story.
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mary rosenblum
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This is one of the two voices
most novice writers use.
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mary rosenblum
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The author tells the reader
the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Next we have Limited Third. In
Limited, the story is told through the perception of the MC.
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mary rosenblum
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The scene is described from
the perspective of the MC's eyes, we hear only what she hears, we know only
what she knows.
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mary rosenblum
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If the bad guy is behind her,
we don't know it, because she can't see him, so neither can we.
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mary rosenblum
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Our next POV, another
'beginner POV' is omniscient. Here we skip from 'head to head'. We are in
Martha's POV looking at Tom and thinking he's a dish, then we're in Tom's
POV thinking Martha is too bossy for him, then we're in Sally's POV wishing
Tom would notice her,...get the drift?
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mary rosenblum
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If we want to know what a
character is thinking or seeing, we just do into his/her POV. So we end up
skipping around like a butterfly.
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mary rosenblum
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Finally, we have Cinematic
POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, we emulate a movie
camera.
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mary rosenblum
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We don't know what ANYBODY
thinks we are in NO ONE's POV.
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mary rosenblum
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We are watching everybody up
on a giant screen.
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mary rosenblum
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This has its uses but they are
very limited.
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mary rosenblum
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It is great for battle scenes,
natural disasters, any time you want to see a huge expanse of landscape,
one larger than any one character will be able to take in.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to briefly show
something that your POV can't see, and you NEED to show it (as opposed to
just wanting to show it), then cinematic is better than hopping into a new
POV for a few sentences.
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mary rosenblum
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It would be very difficult to
make a story work if it was written entirely in cinematic. Not impossible, but
not easy to keep the reader engaged.
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mary rosenblum
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So what are the strengths and
weaknesses here?
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mary rosenblum
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Okay: Third Person Narrative:
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mary rosenblum
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Weakness -- the author reminds
us with every breath that she is TELLING us a story, we are not living that
adventure.
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mary rosenblum
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What is more fun? Riding a
merry go round or listening to your neighbor tell you...
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mary rosenblum
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how much fun she had riding
one?
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mary rosenblum
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Strength -- you can add an
interesting voice that adds interest to a piece that might be weak on plot
or characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing much is going on,
action wise, maybe a strong narrative voice and some insightful asides by
the author...
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mary rosenblum
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will really help this piece.
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mary rosenblum
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BUt remember...if you write
narrative third person, YOU are a character as much as your ...
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mary rosenblum
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first person narrator is. You
need to make your voice interesting.
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mary rosenblum
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I see a lot of droning
narrators. SNORE>>>>>>
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, Limited Third.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the strongest POV for
most uses, in my opinion. Because you sit yourself behind the character's
eyes and describe the scene...
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mary rosenblum
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from that perspective
only...it allows us to step in there with you and become the character.
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mary rosenblum
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We identify with that
character and we begin to live that adventure along with him/her.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the POV that most
often allows your reader to forget they are reading and start experiencing
that Afrian veldt or wherever you are.
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mary rosenblum
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If you use your character's
vocabularly, idioms, and voice to describe the setting, it will deepen our
sense of being onstage with that character.
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mary rosenblum
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The weakness here is that we
only know what that character knows.
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mary rosenblum
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If your plot demands that the
reader have information that your MC does not...it can be tricky.
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mary rosenblum
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Omniscient POV. This is neck
and neck with narrative third for 'most used by beginners' and is a very
weak POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Not a good choice, nineteen
times out of twenty.
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mary rosenblum
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Because nearly all readers
love characters over all...the constant head hopping keeps us distant from
all the characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Instead of becoming intimate
with a single POV or a couple of POVs in a novel, we have a nodding
acquaintanceship with all the characters.
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mary rosenblum
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So they're like the woman who
usually rides the bus you take to work.
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mary rosenblum
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You chat about the weather,
you know she has a cat, but you're not going to count her among your close
friends, or probably risk your life to save her.
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mary rosenblum
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Now it does have its uses.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a strongly plot
driven story and we don't have to like any of the characters for the plot
to work...
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mary rosenblum
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then omniscient may be just
right.
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mary rosenblum
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You see it quite a bit in
literary fiction, but in much literary fiction, we are not asked to care
about the characters, but rather to examine them...
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mary rosenblum
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like specimines.
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mary rosenblum
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If the strenght of your story
lies in what we see and hear and not our caring about the characters, then
that can work quit well.
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mary rosenblum
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But most often, I see stories
where the author intends us to care about the MC, but the omniscient head hopping
keeps us distanced.
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younger
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Do you have any comments about
girl writing from boy POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, I cross gender in my POVs
all the time, younger. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Nothing wrong with it at all. Characterization
is characterization. Your boy should be a boy. Who cares who the author is.
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mary rosenblum
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Now do realize that if you
write in the first person, the reader will ALWAYS assume that first person
mc is the same gender as the author...
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mary rosenblum
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so if he or she is NOT make it
clear on PAGE ONE.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a lovely illustration
for a story that has appeared in my hardcover collection...
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mary rosenblum
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and the artist drew a teen
girl. The mc is a boy, but the face was androgynous enough to use.
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mary rosenblum
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Gave some people in the
business a few good laughs. An editor friend of mine presented me with the
original illustration...which, uncropped, shows the mistake clearly! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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I learned MY lesson!
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younger
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Good, because I seem to veer in
that direction often!
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younger
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Can you give an example of how
to make that clear?
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mary rosenblum
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It can be difficult.
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mary rosenblum
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The simplest way is to have
another character make some kind of statement or reference that makes
gender clear ("Hey, boy, get over here)...
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mary rosenblum
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or have someone use the
character's name. And for heaven's sake don't give him an androgynous name
like Jess!
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mary rosenblum
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One little bit of social
commentary here...
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mary rosenblum
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Most women writers do male POV
all the time.
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mary rosenblum
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Very few male writers do
female POV. No kidding.
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younger
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I was just going to ask- if I
want to keep the name secret
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younger
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until the end, ?
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mary rosenblum
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That is darned easy to do in
first person...in fact it is VERY hard at times to give your POV character
a name in first person...
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mary rosenblum
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if nobody has a reason to say
it!
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mary rosenblum
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But realize that names are
part of characterization and you have to work hard..
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mary rosenblum
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to hide it. It rarely works in
third person, by the way.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes...that is one thing you
can do in first that you cannot do in third ---
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mary rosenblum
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Lie to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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If YOU lie to the reader, the
reader is angry at you.
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mary rosenblum
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If your first person POV lies
to the reader, that is the character, not you, and the reader doesn't blame
you.
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shayon-joseph
|
Mary, from your experience, do
you know immediately what POV you'll write your story from, OR does it
develop over some time?
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mary rosenblum
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I never really do until I
start, shayon.
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mary rosenblum
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In third person I rarely use
anything but limited third or direct first in short fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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although I'll use cinematic in
novels when needed.
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mary rosenblum
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I do the occasional narrative
first, but my narrative third I use only for nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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Limited third is my default
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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But when I begin a story, if
it doesn't flow strongly, I'll try again in first person.
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mary rosenblum
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And sometimes I know from the
story that I need to use first.
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mary rosenblum
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My next Asimov story,
"Skin Deep' is written in direct first.
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mary rosenblum
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And I knew before I started
that I should use it because most of the story is internal monologue...
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mary rosenblum
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and that first is stronger
than a whole lot of thought!
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mary rosenblum
|
The story doesn't have much
action and only a little dialogue..
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mary rosenblum
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and without that strong
character voice it would be very weak...
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mary rosenblum
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but the character's voice adds
interest and keeps it tight.
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deb1234
|
Can you give an example of the
internal monologue versus the thought?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure deb.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know know, he thought
as he paced the floor. Maybe I should go back home, give it up. Maybe I'm
not mean to be an artist. He stalked over to the refrigerator and opened
it, stared into it for awhile, then let the door slam closed. But what
would he do if he went home? Work in the store with Dad...
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mary rosenblum
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That's a third person limited
scene where our character is simply thinking and pacing.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the same scene in
first person:
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know. Maybe I shoul
djust go home. Give it up. I go over to the fridge, open it. Looking for
beer, but Sandi drank it all, the slut. Slam it. I'm kidding. What's at
home? Standing at a counter, handing over boxes of irrigation valves to
stupid soybean farmers who think I'm a freak.
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mary rosenblum
|
Now these are very different
and yet the same and they illustrate what you can and can't do with both
POVs.
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mary rosenblum
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We see more visuals in the 3rd
version because I could show them to you...but our POV char isn't thinking
about what the room looks like.
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mary rosenblum
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Third is better for showing
scenery than first.
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mary rosenblum
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But we get more of the
character's feelings about things, more details about his thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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In first.
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mary rosenblum
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I could do that in the third
version, but I would have to add so many words that the scene would seem
very slow and wordy.
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mary rosenblum
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If you only have a little
thought and you have a lot of great visuals to show...stick with third.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's all thought and the
visuals aren't important, try first.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. I've published seven novels and
more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
|
|
shayon-joseph
|
I have a novel project I'm
working; in it, one of the characters I want to use as POV character dies
in middle of novel. I thought since I wouldn't be able to use his POV
throughout, I tried omniscent 3rd, now story feels much less intimate. Is
it safe to change POV after this character's death?
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mary rosenblum
|
Of course, Shayon.
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mary rosenblum
|
Actually, most novels benefit
from multiple POV characters...
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mary rosenblum
|
you can show the reader more
things, get a wider sense of what is going on.
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mary rosenblum
|
Because I started as a short
story writer, it has taken me quite some time to get comfortable with
multiple POV in novel...
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mary rosenblum
|
but my work is better for
using them.
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mary rosenblum
|
You could use your 'second' MC
as a strong secondary POV in the first half of the book..
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mary rosenblum
|
then let that POV become your
main POV for the second half.
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mary rosenblum
|
But I would caution you to
make us love that secondary before your main POV dies, or you may lose your
readers right there. We need to care about the second or we'll be mad at
you and quit.
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marly
|
When writing a novella, is it
better to stick with one POV?
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mary rosenblum
|
Novellas are quite long,
marly...18,000 -40,000 words.
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mary rosenblum
|
It depends on your story, but
you have plenty of room to create two characters there.
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mary rosenblum
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But one will work just fine,
too.
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deb1234
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How long should a piece be
before you can properly use multiple POVs?
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mary rosenblum
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There's no set length, deb.
You can have two POVs in a 2000 word short short if the plot is the driving
force.
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mary rosenblum
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The story has to work.
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mary rosenblum
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If the story needs us to care
deeply about one character and we're in three different POVs, it may not
work.
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mary rosenblum
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If we don't really need to
care much about any character than those three POVs may work just fine.
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younger
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In my story, there is a car
wreck & he pulls her out - it has detailed scenery, but also a lot of
his thoughts - which should I go with?
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mary rosenblum
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Try both and see which one
takes off for you.
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shayon-joseph
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The second MC is a child in
beginning of story; not certain if I can use his POV due to his age. Any
thoughts on POV of younger characters?
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mary rosenblum
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I use 'em all the time,
Shayon, and some of my awards were won for child POVs. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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The really important thing is
they have to be kids...
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mary rosenblum
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not adults wearing a kid's
skin and a mask.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's basic
characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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If your POV is a sailor, then
he needs to talk, think, and act like one, not like college grad with a
sailor's hat on.
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mary rosenblum
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By the way, I posted an
article on the various third person POVs on the website this week...
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mary rosenblum
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In Writing Craft: The Plot
Thickens.
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mary rosenblum
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It includes examples and
covers a lot of what I talked about here tonight.
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mary rosenblum
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My main advice is to avoid
narrative third and omniscient POV.
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mary rosenblum
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These are inherently weak POVs
and tend to be the 'default' for novice writers.
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shayon-joseph
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Mary, when you say "making
reader care about character(s)" do you mean through the action of the
story, the thoughts of the character, comments made about said character by
another character? Or do you just mean through the usual line of the story
itself.
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mary rosenblum
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All of those things contribute
to our caring, shayon.
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mary rosenblum
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What makes us care about
characters are what I call ''velcro traits'.
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mary rosenblum
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As the character reveals
himself/herself to us in the story, interacting, reacting, dealing with the
plot...
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mary rosenblum
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and as we find out about that
character...
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mary rosenblum
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we discover traits that we
identify with. Hey, she likes dogs. She hates authority figures, she's
afraid of failure..gee she's a lot like me...
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mary rosenblum
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How do we become friends with
someone? Usually it is someone whose personality traits...
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mary rosenblum
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suit our own. So to with
characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Which is why good
characterization...giving your character a rich spectrum of personal
details...
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mary rosenblum
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makes for a strong
character/reader bond.
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mary rosenblum
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The more we know about that
person, the more likely we are to feel 'he's like me'...'she's like me' and
to want that person...and by association..US...succeed!
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mary rosenblum
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There are lots of universal
character traits that are shared by LOTS of people.
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mary rosenblum
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Fear of failure. Desire to
please mom or dad, desire to succeed...
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mary rosenblum
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a sense of responsibility,
generosity, a need to be loved, a need to feel safe...
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mary rosenblum
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The more your character
reveals these universals, the more readers will feel..ah..like me...a
friend....
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deb1234
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How do you decide which is going
to make the better story in regards to plot vs. character driven so that
you'll know which POV to use?
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mary rosenblum
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That depends on each
individual story, deb.
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mary rosenblum
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I have to weigh the events I
plan to include, the point I am making..
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mary rosenblum
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what is going to work better
as a driving force? The character's conflict and resolutio or the external
conflict and resolution?
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mary rosenblum
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I just sent off a plot driven
magic realism piece...about magic in the everyday world.
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mary rosenblum
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While I usually write
character driven stories...this time, the point seemed to be better made...
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mary rosenblum
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by an external conflict and
resolution...ie, a plot driven story.
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mary rosenblum
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The character's personal
conflict/resolution supports the main plot, but is secondary to it.
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mary rosenblum
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I could have done it the other
way, but it would have been too long and not strong enough for the length,
I thought.
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mary rosenblum
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This has been a fun Oregon
hour. :-)
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shayon-joseph
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Any tips on smooth transitions
between multiple POV's? Also, I remember someone saying third person is
good to tone down violence---how would a transition from a character's POV
make it to third person? The violence I've plotted out is very intense and
I need a buffer between the action and the reader to take the edge off.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, Shayon, violence is
much more vivid in third person.
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mary rosenblum
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think about the last traumatic
event you experienced..a fall, an accident...
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mary rosenblum
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how much detail did you
actually notice? The MC has to TELL us what is happening.
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mary rosenblum
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But in third person, as long
as we use the character's voice, we can include more and more vivid details
and bring that gore up close and personal.
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mary rosenblum
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As to transitions..in a novel,
try real hard to use chapter breaks, shayon.
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mary rosenblum
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That is your best way to do
it.
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mary rosenblum
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If you must switch POV within
a story, just try very very hard to make it crystal clear to the reader
what you are doing!
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mary rosenblum
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It is VERY hard to keep your
reader with you when you switch POV within a scene or chapter.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript of
this in the usual place:
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all, and
I"ll see you Sunday at our open chat..
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mary rosenblum
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5 PM Pacific, 6 mt, 7 central,
and 8 PM east coast.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a time to just get
together and talk about whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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Good night, all!
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mary rosenblum
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Write well!
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