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Mary Rosenblum
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Hello all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday
Lunchbox Forum.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I hope you had a great
weekend.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I went down to the barn to
find a new lamb this morning, so spring is proceeding nicely here.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Since my professional
connection guests this month will be Paul Wrigley and Debbie Cross
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Mary Rosenblum
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who are booksellers and
bookstore owners and will talk about how your book goes from
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Mary Rosenblum
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publisher to bookshelf, I
thought it would be worth while to talk about the various types of
publishers
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Mary Rosenblum
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and what they offer to you the
writer.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Twenty years ago, the
publishing world was pretty straightforward, but it has been changing
rapidly and that pace
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Mary Rosenblum
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of change is increasing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Ten years from now it may have
an entirely different form than it does now.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now we have a proliferation of
options and the now epublishers and now podcasting have widened the field
of potential markets.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The 'traditional' that is 'New York' publishers
who put out large numbers of paper books
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Mary Rosenblum
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either hardcover, mass market,
or trade paperback, use the most expensive technology.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They expend a lot of capital
to print the 10,000 or so hardcovers or 30,000 paperbacks that constitute
the average first print run.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Because of the cost of paper,
ink, and time, the profit margin on these books is small.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And because of the reduction
in publishers (many small publishers have been absorbed into a very few
giants) the bottom line has become more critical
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Mary Rosenblum
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as the mass of the company has
increased. So these publishers are VERY sales conscious.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They also have the widest
distribution, putting books into thousands of chain bookstores nationwide.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Print on Demand technology is
less than a decade old.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is technologyh that
allows a publisher to print a very small number of books at low
cost...perhaps a few hundred.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Thus the publisher has to
expend less capital up front and his/her loss is smaller if the books do
not sell well.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It also permits publishers to
keep a book in print longer, since the publisher does not have to store a
large inventory and thus
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Mary Rosenblum
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pay for warehouse space and
pay taxes on inventory.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Small press publishers almost
unanimously use POD technology.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This has also allowed writers
to publish their own work very cheaply.
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Mary Rosenblum
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For a few hundred dollars you
can contract with one of the self publishing houses, iUniverse, and the
like, to publish your book for you.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Most of these companies treat
the book as if they were a small press publisher...that is they collect the
sales price and send you a royalty.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That royalty is a percentage
of the cover price of the book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You also have what I call the
'quantity publishers' that publish nearly every book they receive, as long
as it's at all readable.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You don't pay to publish with
them, you have a contract, and you receive a royalty on every book sold.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You also have ebook publishers
now, who make books available for download or on CDs for purchase. This has
a relative small readership to date, although that may -- or may not --
grow.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Podcasting is very new. So
far, it is nearly entirely a 'free' distribution used more for PR than
anything, but it may also catch on now that everybody owns an ipod.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This is a new take on 'books
on tape'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It is very simple to produce a
podcast at home and distribute from a website. It will be interesting to
see how this technology affects the book market.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So. Right now, the majority of
books sold/read are traditional paper print books.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The issue on all of the
alternative methods is one particular choke point... advertising and
distribution.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The average American walks
into a Barnes and Noble when he/she wants a new book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That IS changing with the
advent of the .com bookstores.
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janecj333
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I can't help but feel nostalgic
about books printed with handset type and sold on street corners.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, artisnal cheeses are
hot, why not artisnal books?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Essentially, you should decide
on what publisher you want to submit to according to what your writing goal
is.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If your goal is merely to have
your book in print, to have it available to people, then by all means
either use a self publishing house or publish with one of the quantity
publishers
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Mary Rosenblum
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who does not try and sneak in
extra fees. (Many do and they are called scams!)
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you're going to take that
route, be sure to purchase two or three different titles published by this
company to check quality.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Some of these cheap publishers
put out books whose pages are literally falling out of the binding
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Mary Rosenblum
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or whose pages are packed with
typos.
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charie'
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I thought any publisher that
wants money FROM you is a scam.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not if they tell you up front
that they're charging a fee.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Then they're just a
self-publishing house.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They're scams when they tell
you that they're a legitimate publisher and then tell you, by the way,
everybody charges for editing now...
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Mary Rosenblum
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Nothing wrong with a subsidy press
as long as they're honest about being a subsidy press.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you are looking for a
career as, say, a mystery writer, or you want to actually make decent money
from your book
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Mary Rosenblum
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these small self
publishing/quantity publishers are not the way to go.
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redwagon
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My brother is the district
manager of all the Barnes and Noble's -for the entire southwest of America. He is losing
some customers to .com bookstores, but not enough to hurt Barnes and Noble,
-at all. People still love to hold a book in their hand.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's quite true, red. Most
people still buy their books at the bookstore.
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redwagon
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...sorry that was southeast
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Mary Rosenblum
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True everywhere.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So realize that if you publish
with a publisher who sells from the website only, or through that and
amazon.com only...
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Mary Rosenblum
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your sales will be
dramatically smaller from the get-go.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This may well change, but
hasn't yet.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The problem is that right now,
if a reader wants a new book, where does he/she go?
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Mary Rosenblum
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usually to the bookstore to
see what's out on the display table
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Mary Rosenblum
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unless he/she has a specific
author in mind.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Right now we do not have big,
central PR locations where readers get 'new book' advice.
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janecj333
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Vanity presses may not be scams,
but they're hardly ethical, imo.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Why not, jane?
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have many students who want
to publish their mom''s biography or the family history. No publisher is
going to put that out...the interst is way too narrow.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Why should they not pay
someone to print them five hundred copies?
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Mary Rosenblum
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I don't see anything wrong
with that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What's wrong is when a
publisher tells a naive new writer that the book is going to be published,
implying that the process
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Mary Rosenblum
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will be the same as with
Random House and then hands that author a bill
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Mary Rosenblum
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and sells the book only from
the website, yielding about ten sales, mostly to family.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's unethical.
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barbiq
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National chains won't take
self-published books will they?
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Mary Rosenblum
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No, they won't.
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Mary Rosenblum
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To be honest, there's a reason
most self published books ARE self published.
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Mary Rosenblum
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As a rule they are very poor
in quality.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now that is not always the
case.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But readers to tend to avoid
self published books after paying money for a couple and getting burned.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now your local bookstore may
well stock your self published book on consignment if the owner likes it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But you will not be able to
distribute it easily to out of area bookstores.
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janecj333
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The whole idea of vanity press
is that the work will somehow find an audience. To imply such only serves
the publisher who makes his money from the desperate writer.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Goodness, Jane! If the
publisher says that this book is getting published for a fee, how can a
writer be deluded by that publisher? I do have students who KNOW they are
the next Stephen KIng and if that
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Mary Rosenblum
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writer, against all advice,
chooses to self publish believing the world will beat a path to his door,
how is that the publisher's fault?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You're confusing legitimate
vanity presses with the scam presses that pretend to be regular publishers
but really are not.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And if you have a strong niche
market...
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Mary Rosenblum
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say, a book that will only
interest dog trainers...you might be better off publishing it yourself
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Mary Rosenblum
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and collecting all of the
purchase price if you can distribute it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But you have to think your
distribution through.
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Mary Rosenblum
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How do you get the word out to
readers and how do you get books to them?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not many people buy from
websites, relatively speaking.
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barbiq
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What about poetry? Do the same
publishing rules apply?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Poetry is not my area of
expertise, barb, but I have to say that it is rife with scams.
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Mary Rosenblum
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These are the poetry contests
where you win, and then they urge you to buy the big, lovely book...
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Mary Rosenblum
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or it wins some award and is
also out on CD read by someone. And you pay more for that.
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dim writer
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Dog shows or vets?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes...
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Mary Rosenblum
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You could distribute that kind
of niche book to groomers, pet stores, vet office, whatever.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'd have to do all the work
of course. But you could end up making as much as you might make
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Mary Rosenblum
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if the book was published by a
big company and sold poorly.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You need to do the numbers.
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Mary Rosenblum
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How much do you want to make
on a book?
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you're getting royalties,
then how many books do you need to sell in order to make that money?
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you're self publishing,
then deduct the cost and figure out how many books you need to sell.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A friend of mine has published
several books of humor that appeal only to goat owners.
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Mary Rosenblum
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She has been selling them
through goat magazines, catalogues, and at shows for years. She's made a
decent return with those books.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Niche market.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But she is the exception that
proves the rule. It takes a LOT of your time and effort to do that.
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redwagon
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I'm sticking with NY publishers
for my novel. How long should I wait for NY, before giving up and trying a
different avenue?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, if you'll read my
interview with Kat Richardson, it took her 23 rejections to sell her series
but it sold to Roc a NY house and it ended up in a bidding war.
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unicorn
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A friend of mine won a poetry
contest and the only way he could collect his winnings is fly to Washington.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Those poetry contest scams
abound.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you want attention from
critics, which is how you get known in the literary world, you're really
going to have to
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Mary Rosenblum
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publish with NY or with one of
the top small presses.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Critics don't review self
published, quantity published, or most small press houses.
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barbiq
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So, which is better submitting
yourself or through an agent
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Mary Rosenblum
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Mostly, these days, if you're
going to submit to the big publishers, you have to have an agent, barb.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not true if you're going to
submit to Harlequin Sillhouette in Romance.
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speckledorf
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How can we tell which small
presses are better than others? There's so many of them out there.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Go talk to the owner of a
small bookstore.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Most of them know which
publishers are good.
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charie'
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Once you have self published and
it is getting a good response, can you shop it to larger publishers?
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Mary Rosenblum
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They won't publish that book,
charie,unless your numbers are earth shaking! But if your numbers are good,
you can use them to get a NY deal on your next book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Jeff Vandemeer and Jay Lake have recently
jumped from small press to NY that way.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But you need to sell more than
about 3000 books in the first year to interest them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So far, the people I've talked
to have sold under 50 copies in the first year.
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charie'
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I think Christopher Paolini
started with a small publisher.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yeah, but that was a media
thing, charie. It was made to happen.
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barbiq
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What is the normal "press
run" from a NY house?
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Mary Rosenblum
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In the genres, it's usually
10,000 - 12,000 for hardcover and about 35,000 for paperback.
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barbiq
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And how do you find a Good/Great
agent?
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Mary Rosenblum
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http://www.aar-online.org/index.html
Association of Authors' Representative homepage
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Mary Rosenblum
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Go read their FAQ page.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They also list contact
information for their members who are accepting new authors.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Always check any agent or
publisher on the Preditors and Editors website.
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Mary Rosenblum
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http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/
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Mary Rosenblum
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They list scam publishers and
scam agents.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Two recent students of mine
were paying money to agencies listed in the 'Top Ten Worst' list.
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charie'
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Sounds like choosing a doctor
within an HMO. : -)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Pretty much!
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Mary Rosenblum
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But we writers want SO much to
get that book published, it's very easy for these scams to prey on that
naivety and desire.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Always always always check
everything on Preditors and Editors
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redwagon
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sounds more like going to a
blind dentist
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Mary Rosenblum
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Nah, only if you pick the
wrong one. :-)
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janecj333
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Most agents will say that to get
a great agent, you have to write a great book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yeah, that's ALWAYS rule
number one. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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But do realize that just
because the first six agents don't want it, doesn't mean number seven won't
love it and sell it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Even when you write very well,
fiction is a subjective universe.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What one person loves, someone
else may not.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So you make the rounds until
you find the one who loves it.
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barbiq
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Are agent's like lawyers and
take a Jfter selling the book
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Mary Rosenblum
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Of course. They have to eat,
too. They get 15% of your take on the book....but that comes AFTER you get
paid.
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Mary Rosenblum
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No money up front.
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janecj333
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So true, and especially when
most agents want only a query letter, and not even a paragraph of the
writing itself.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, they're looking for an
idea or approach that grab's em, Jane.
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charie'
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So if you want to publish with a
major house, you have to shop for the agent first.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes.
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Mary Rosenblum
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YOu're going to need an agent
once you get a yes from a NY house because the contract is not
comprehensible. :-)
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redwagon
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How long is the wait time once a
book is presented to a publisher? -For finding out if they want your book
or not.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That varies enormously. An
agent can nag the editor, so usually less than six weeks if it's agented.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you are submitting 'over
the transom' to a NY publisher who still takes unagented material, figure a
year.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Small press are much
faster...usually under three months.
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barbiq
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What is the wait time between
the Yes and the actual book?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Normally about two years for
NY, barb. Probably a year for a small press, but that varies.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It can be less for NY, but
usually two years for a first book.
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barbiq
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Is that why most series seem to
have such a large gap?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes and it's why a 'slice of
sausage' series is not a good idea. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Readers lose the excitement
during that 1 - 2 year wait.
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charie'
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What is a 'slice of sausage'
series?
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Mary Rosenblum
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When it's one big story simply
chopped into segments so that no one book stands alone.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Think Lord of the Rings.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Think about starting that
series by reading book two....
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barbiq
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But the LOTR was a single volume
first, the publisher split
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sure. And it was issued
together. And it's not a good example of anything really, becuase Tolkien
made all kinds of things work that usually don't.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But when book one comes out
and leaves the reader hanging for a two year wait, it's not usually a good
thing.
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barbiq
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So if you do a series you should
have more than one ready?
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Mary Rosenblum
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more than one book ready? It
helps, but the publisher will still probably bring them out a year apart.
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janecj333
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Well, you have to give that
series writer some time to finish the next 500 pg. tome.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Exactly, Jane. LOL
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barbiq
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Is JK Rowlings an exception with
the Potter series?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Those books stand alone.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Each book has a dramatic arc
that ends with that book. It has a larger, overarching story, but you can
read book three first and enjoy it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You'll pick up the details of
her universe fine.
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redwagon
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Is there a way to find out what
NY publishers are looking for?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Nope. What is on the bookshelf
today was bought two years ago or more.
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unicorn
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what is involved that it takes
two years? Editing/proofing, etc?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yep. Let me go through the
process...
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Mary Rosenblum
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You sell the book.
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Mary Rosenblum
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About six weeks to three
months later, you get the 'editorial letter' asking for all the big changes
the editorwants to see.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Your book is not completely
accepted until those are completed. Once they are completed and the editor
is happy, the novel is accepted and moved into production.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Now you do a bunch of
'nitpicky' edits as the editor and assistant and finally copy editor look
for logic flaws, inconsistant language, etc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Finally, you do page proofs to
check for typos. Meanwhile, they assign the cover art to an artist, and do
page design.
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speckledorf
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There are several agents who
blog and often mention what they are looking for.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yeah there are, but
remember....these are individual opinions even when presented as 'everybody
wants this'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sprinkle a few grains of salt
on these posts.
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unicorn
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Is there a time limit placed on
the changes?
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Mary Rosenblum
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There sure is and if you don'
t meet it, your book may end up coming out a year late and your publisher
will be VERY unhappy with you.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They schedule advertising etc
for a specific release date.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, I hope this has helped.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The main thing in todays
complex publishing world is 'be a good consumer' and 'ask questions'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Always check any agent or
publisher with preditors and editors. ALWAYS.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And if you're not sure of
something, ask.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll post the transcripts in
the usual place: Writing Craft Forum Transcripts.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do join us tomorrow for our
casual chat!
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charie'
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Are the editors on that site
'preditors' as well?
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Mary Rosenblum
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They list publishers, agents,
and contests, charie.
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redwagon
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I can't stop humming 'Mary had a
little lamb...' : )
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Mary Rosenblum
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hey, two so far. The last
yearling is due this week and has a nice udder on her.
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Mary Rosenblum
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See you all Wednesday!
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