Forum Transcripts

Mining for Clips

May 29, 2007



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.

Mary Rosenblum

Hello all.

Mary Rosenblum

I hope you all had an enjoyable, long weekend.

Mary Rosenblum

I gues summer has officially begun he?

Mary Rosenblum

I thought I'd talk about clips today, because I get so many questions about them.

Mary Rosenblum

They're helpful in both the fiction and nonfiction arenas, but they're particularly necessary in nonfiction, where you almost have to have clips

Mary Rosenblum

before an editor will take a serious look at your query.

Mary Rosenblum

It can seem like an insurmountable wall...to publish you have to have clips but how do you get published in the first plcae, so that you can have clips?

Mary Rosenblum

It's not really as much a catch-22 as it might seem.

Mary Rosenblum

Not a sheer wall, anyway, but it can be a steep and rocky climb when you're a new writer and thirsting to publish.

destiny8

My Irving Berlin profile clip may not be relevant to another

Mary Rosenblum

Maybe not in terms of the type of article you're pitching, but it is relevant in one respect...

Mary Rosenblum

it proves to the editor that you are capable of producing a publishable work

Mary Rosenblum

What an editor looks for in a clip...

Mary Rosenblum

is proof that you are actually capable or writing well and doing so to someone else's specifications.

Mary Rosenblum

Even if you have written on a very different topic, you did it competantly. And freelancers generally write on a wide range of topics although

Mary Rosenblum

they'll usually specialize in a particular arena.

reece

I haven't written any non fiction before so could you tell me Mary what does a clip consist of

Mary Rosenblum

Usually it is a xerox copy of the actual article for nonfiction, reece.

Mary Rosenblum

The editor wants a writing sample.

Mary Rosenblum

If you have sold a lot of articles, then pick one or two that are the closest in content to the article you're pitching.

Mary Rosenblum

In fiction, you only need to mention the places where your fiction has been published, you don't need to include the actual piece.

Mary Rosenblum

There the editor is looking for name recognition not a writing sample.

Mary Rosenblum

Every fiction work is judged on its own merits

Mary Rosenblum

The nonfiction editor judges the query and wants to make the assumption that you will write that piece competently. Thus the need for a 'writing sample'.

Mary Rosenblum

So. How do you get clips if you don't have clips?

Mary Rosenblum

Generally, in nonfiction, you either mine your own expertise, a lucky break, or you start at the bottom.

Mary Rosenblum

If you are an expert in some area -- you have national titles in running, say, or you're an MD, or you are the director of a horticultural garden....

Mary Rosenblum

you can write articles within your area of expertise and the editor will consider it without clips because

Mary Rosenblum

your expertise is a valuable commodity.

Mary Rosenblum

If you are lucky, and your best friend's brother is a national celebrity, you can pitch an interview with this person and maybe sell

Mary Rosenblum

it to a national magazine because that editor WANTS that interview and you can provide it.

Mary Rosenblum

Yeah, you have to do it well, but the editor will probably consider the finished piece with no clips to support it.

Mary Rosenblum

BUT if you don't have saleable expertise and you don't have a friend with a national celbrity as a sister, then you probably will start at the bottom.

Mary Rosenblum

By that I mean you query the very small presses, even the magazines that pay nothing when they publish your work.

Mary Rosenblum

You are actually getting paid though, if you think about it. You are getting paid in 'clips'.

Mary Rosenblum

Most new freelancers begin to work their way 'up the ladder'.

Mary Rosenblum

That is, they publish with those non-payers, then use those clips to sell to small press magazine, then use those clips to sell

Mary Rosenblum

to magazines with larger circulations, working their way up to the large circulation 'glossies'.

reece

can a letter to an editor thats published be a clip?

Mary Rosenblum

By all means use that if you have nothing else, especially if it was published in a big metropolitan daily.

Mary Rosenblum

People who have published on the LR website should use those clips to start out with.

Mary Rosenblum

It's really not that difficult to get something published with one of the 'low end' small magazines or ezines.

Mary Rosenblum

And while it's time spent for no cash gain, it's the foundation that will help you climb the pyramid to those large circulation, well paying magazines at the top of the heap.

Mary Rosenblum

Editors DO use your clips to decide just where you are in the heirarchy of publishing.

Mary Rosenblum

If you query a science mag, say, and your clips include Scientific American and National Geographic, the editor is going to treat

Mary Rosenblum

your query VERY seriously. Clearly you are more than competant in the science writing arena.

Mary Rosenblum

(And the editor probably already knows your name).

Mary Rosenblum

If you query that big science mag with clips from a couple of online gardening ezines, you won't get a lot of attention unless the editor REALLY likes your proposal.

Mary Rosenblum

BUT...a really on-target proposal that knocks the editor's socks off trumps no clips any day. :-)

onepozy

As a new writer should you work both fiction and non fiction or choose one to work toward publication

Mary Rosenblum

Write what you want to write, one. They are different universes. Clips from one will not matter to much to editors in the other field.

Mary Rosenblum

Nonfiction is a good paying day job.

Mary Rosenblum

Fiction is not.

Mary Rosenblum

They both require huge amounts of writing time and work on your part.

Mary Rosenblum

Fiction is a bit different because the story itself is everything in fiction.

Mary Rosenblum

So a brilliant story is a brilliant story and you can break into the top magazines with a brilliant story, even if you have never sold anything.

Mary Rosenblum

But 'brilliant story' is a very subjective judgement. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

Name recognition DOES matter.

Mary Rosenblum

If you start selling to small presses, even show up in the no-pay markets, and your stories get noticed, editors will begin to keep an eye on you

Mary Rosenblum

and give you a 'hand up' when they can, by accepting stories.

Mary Rosenblum

I would not START with the small end markets. If you believe that your story is good, start with the top markets and work your way down.

Mary Rosenblum

Not the other way around.

tory

Does one still need clips for fiction? Editors won't look at a novel from a new writer until it's complete anyway. Do pubslishers of short fiction want clips or the whole story?

Mary Rosenblum

Yes, you want to use any clip you have in your cover letter. By that I mean you need to mention where you have

Mary Rosenblum

been published, if you have published fiction before.

Mary Rosenblum

But no, they don't want to see that story. They want to see the story you are offering them ONLY.

Mary Rosenblum

And you're right. No editor will purchase an unfinished novel from a novice writer. Some agents may look at a partial manuscript if the novel seems saleable enough to them.

Mary Rosenblum

And while you don't have to have clips when you market a novel, if you have been published in short fiction it can help you

Mary Rosenblum

sell the novel.

reece

What kinds of magazines publish fiction stories?And how long should they be for best results?

Mary Rosenblum

You need to read the market list, reece.

Mary Rosenblum

You'll find a lot of magazines that publish fiction and each will have its own guidelines for content and length.

tory

What about the creative non-fiction shorts? They're true, but read like a short story? Those clips you would Not use to query say a travel or gardening piece, would you?

Mary Rosenblum

Sure you would.

Mary Rosenblum

Again, the NF editor is only concerned about your ability to write professionally.

Mary Rosenblum

A published personal narrative piece tells 'em you can write professional quality prose.

Mary Rosenblum

If your query is professional and those are your clips, you're fine.

barbiq

What it the adverage word count for a novel?

Mary Rosenblum

Depends on the genre and the particular publisher, barb. Anywhere from 50,000 - 150,000 words.

tory

Ahh, that brings up my concern. An editor did their job--editting my piece. But added in adverbs and tom swifty-type attributions. I'd hate for an editor to judge my writing by that. Best to just leave it off the list? :-(

Mary Rosenblum

For sure! If you have had a piece edited to the point where it no longer represents your writing and you don' t like it, then don't use it as a clip!

Mary Rosenblum

That raises my eyebrows, by the way. Most professional editors don't make that kind of change.

gonnabe

Can't I simply submit a finished article sans clips?

Mary Rosenblum

You can, and to be honest, if you have no clips, I'd just send in the finished piece as your 'writing sample'.

Mary Rosenblum

What have you got to lose? The worst you can get is a rejection.

Mary Rosenblum

Some editors will read the piece to see if it's any good, others will reject it because you didn't follow the rules. Roll the dice and see what you get.

tory

Yes, I gues I got a newbie editor, too!

Mary Rosenblum

I'm guessing, so, Tory.

Mary Rosenblum

Generally, the reason you do the query and provide clips is because the editor does NOT want to have to mess much with your article.

Mary Rosenblum

They have an entire issue to fill and lay out.

Mary Rosenblum

That editor wants reassurance that you'll send in something he/she can use with little or no revising.

Mary Rosenblum

Which is why it is VERY VERY VERY important to make sure your query letter is tight, clean and has NO grammatical errors or typos.

destiny8

Don't want to ruin my chances with that ed. if I "Roll the

Mary Rosenblum

I doubt you'll 'ruin your chances' destiny. Editors don't hold grudges for that. They need new writers all the time.

Mary Rosenblum

But if you get the 'you didn't follow the rules' rejection, just don't bother to query again until you do have solid clips to offer.

Mary Rosenblum

Editors DO need writers in order to keep their jobs.

Mary Rosenblum

And in NF especially, they want a string of 'regulars' they can assign topics to.

Mary Rosenblum

They decide on an issue's theme WAY in advance and they can't just hope that people send 'em the right articles.

Mary Rosenblum

They call up their regulars and ask for specific articles to fill those issues.

reece

How many clips should you submit if you have many?

Mary Rosenblum

Chose your two or three most appropriate, reece.

Mary Rosenblum

Pick clips from similar articles and use the 'biggest' magazines you've sold to as your clip.

Mary Rosenblum

Say you're pitching a garden piece.

Mary Rosenblum

If you sold to 'Organic Gardening' a very large circulation glossy, you'd mention that of course.

Mary Rosenblum

But if all your clips are pretty small, except for the pesonal narrative you sold to the Atlantic, you'd mention the best couple of your gardening clips

Mary Rosenblum

and the Atlantic personal narrative.

Mary Rosenblum

Yeah, it's not a gardening piece, but you have to write very well to publish in the Atlantic.

Mary Rosenblum

The editor will be impressed by that and reassured by your published garden pieces.

gonnabe

Are "themes" listed in the writers guidelines?

Mary Rosenblum

Yes, gonnabe, more or less.

Mary Rosenblum

Every guideline will tell you what the editor needs. Often these are very vague, but sometimes they'll list themes for particular issues.

barbiq

Should you look into local magazines first?

Mary Rosenblum

Always good if you can do it, barb. That 'local connection' is good and editors like it.

Mary Rosenblum

Make sure you keep a file of your clips.

Mary Rosenblum

If you publish in ezines at first....fertile ground for acquiring clips...be aware that links are not forever.

Mary Rosenblum

The ezine may remove the piece, move it, or the ezine itself may go out of business.

Mary Rosenblum

Make sure you have a copy of those articles filed to disk and include the magazine's full name and the actual date of publication.

Mary Rosenblum

When something comes out in a print mag, take it to a copy shop and make several copies. File them for use as clips.

writingwolfaert

how effective is an ezine clip compared to a print? What would you include first?

Mary Rosenblum

In nonfiction it is all about circulation.

Mary Rosenblum

That information is available on the inside cover of the magazine if it's in print.

Mary Rosenblum

An ezine is less identifiable in terms of number of readers.

Mary Rosenblum

There it's mostly about reputation.

Mary Rosenblum

Most ezines are pretty negligible in terms of readership.

Mary Rosenblum

Wired is one exception. It has a huge readership.

Mary Rosenblum

And any online version of a big circulation print mag -- Scientific American, National Geographic, The Economist -- is gold.

Mary Rosenblum

Barb Wire Fence Monthly is not going to impress editors all that highly. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

A regular column in a newspaper is a GREAT clip.

Mary Rosenblum

Even a single piece here and there is good, though.

Mary Rosenblum

IF you can say you're a regular contributor to a metropolitan paper that's good.

Mary Rosenblum

But ANY clip is good when you're starting.

Mary Rosenblum

Go through the writers markets and target those little magazines and ezines that don't pay much.

Mary Rosenblum

See if you can write something for 'em.

Mary Rosenblum

Because they don't pay much the pros don't write for 'em.

Mary Rosenblum

So they're hungry.

barbiq

What makes you a "regular contributer" to a paper or magazin

Mary Rosenblum

Well, you can interpret that vague term any way you want, barb. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

I suspect if I was starting out and I had published three pieces with that newspaper, I'd call myself that.

Mary Rosenblum

I might even do it for two publications if I was just sure the editor would like my proposal. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

A bit of creative interpretation is fine (what's the definition of 'regular' anyway?) as long as you don't lie.

Mary Rosenblum

The publishing world in NF has had its nose rubbed hard in lying lately and that is a VERY touchy area right now.

Mary Rosenblum

You get exposed making things up and you will find it hard to get past that in the future.

Mary Rosenblum

The publishing word is rife with gossip and names get around.

Mary Rosenblum

Editors talk to each other all the time. The upcoming stars get talked about. And so do the jerks.

gonnabe

Let's call it salesmanship - not telling lies!

Mary Rosenblum

Salesmanship....creative interpretation... you know!

Mary Rosenblum

Taht's why you don't tell the editor that the magazine that published your story didn't pay for it.

Mary Rosenblum

You just name the mag.

reece

if you have work printed in a school or collage paper can you use it as a clip or better to not?

Mary Rosenblum

Not, reece, unless you were the editor of the Harvard law newsletter or something like that.

Mary Rosenblum

Not if you worked on your basic undergrad newspaper.

Mary Rosenblum

It won't help you and it makes you sound like a rank amateur.

Mary Rosenblum

You get NO points for being an amateur from professional editors.

Mary Rosenblum

Professional work -- company newsletters, research papers -- aren't worth a lot, but better than nothing.

Mary Rosenblum

Some corporate newsletters are good, others are put out by employees promoted to that job for other reasons besides writing competancy.

Mary Rosenblum

Better than nothing, but they tell the editor you haven't published anywhere else. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

So if you have regular publishing clips use them first.

destiny8

These NL's go to clients. Marketing purposes.

Mary Rosenblum

Editor doesn't know that. If you have nothing else, use it, but if you have regular clips, use those.

Mary Rosenblum

NF editors want to know 'can you do what I want well?"

Mary Rosenblum

What they want is not what most company newsletters do. Or scientific papers. Or college newspapers.

Mary Rosenblum

So pay your dues and publish with those small circulation mags and ezines.

Mary Rosenblum

Take your pay in clips at first and use those to climb up to where you sell to the big circulation mags and get real money. :-)

Mary Rosenblum

It's good practice for you, anyway. The more you write the better you get.

Mary Rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts of this chat in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

Mary Rosenblum

Do remember that this Thursday, I'll be chatting with Valerie Harms on Memoir and how to write it.

Mary Rosenblum

It should be a great chat if you're interested in memoir at all.

Mary Rosenblum

Drop in here tomorrow, Wednesday, for our casual get together.

Mary Rosenblum

Same time as today's Forum, but we just talk about whatever...the weater if nothing else!

Mary Rosenblum

Have a good day, all!

 

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