Forum Transcripts

Making a Living Writing 11/10/06

Event start time:

Fri Nov 10 19:03:33 2006

Event end time:

Fri Nov 10 20:10:52 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all.

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours Forum.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I hope you've all had a drier week than we have. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'm still having a hard time realizing that we're now in November.

geezer

Send some down to us

mary rosenblum

I will do my best, geeze.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about the realities of writing and money tonight, because 'quitting the day job' is the ideal of most aspiring writers

mary rosenblum

and there's not a lot of hard information out there about money, how long it takes to build a career, and the like.

mary rosenblum

Well, Xana, I made your question disappear somehow. Xana asked how many published writers actually make a living at it.

mary rosenblum

Well, Xana, if you are talking about ALL published writers, very very few. Many people make no effort to make a living writing.

mary rosenblum

They might sell a story or a personal narrative piece to a local magazine, but they don't work harder at it than that.

mary rosenblum

You don't make a living writing by writing something and sending it out once every three years, that's for sure. :-)

matashi

How long did it take you to make a living as a writer?

mary rosenblum

Well, I started supporting myself by my writing about five years after I started writing seriously, but we're talking poverty level income here.

mary rosenblum

And that's one of the main issues you have to think about if you really want to quit the day job.

mary rosenblum

What is the lowest income you are comfortable with?

mary rosenblum

If you only want to write if you can live like Stephen King, forget it. :-)

mary rosenblum

You can count the writers who make that kind of money on one hand with fingers left over.

xana

There are the matters of health insurance and pension too.

mary rosenblum

Yep. I pay my own health insurance. Any pension I have comes from money I put in the bank.

mary rosenblum

You don't do this to get rich, believe me.

mary rosenblum

You also have to decide what matters to you.

mary rosenblum

Is it more important to write what YOU want to write, or is it more important to support yourself writing?

mary rosenblum

If it's more important to make that income you will...WILL...write things you don't love, but you get paid for 'em.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

That's a distinction that very few books or workshops on 'making a living' address and you need to think about it.

mary rosenblum

You won't be able to write only what you want to write and support yourself unless you are very very lucky, and like Rowling, end up with a blocbuster.

mary rosenblum

Doesn't happen very often. Like lightning strikes, it's utterly unpredictable.

sady

What kind of short term goals should I make on my way to becoming a full time writer?

mary rosenblum

First, decide on your goals.

mary rosenblum

What matters to you most?

mary rosenblum

Writing the novels you want to write?

mary rosenblum

Making a living?

mary rosenblum

Now come up with a minimum income that you must make in order to pay the bills and care for yourself and your family.

mary rosenblum

They're stuck with your lifestyle decision, remember. :-) My kids grew up pretty poor.

mary rosenblum

But they don't get into debt and they survived fine without expensive jeans.

matashi

I think writing what you love is the most important.

mary rosenblum

If that is what matters to you most, matashi, that is a very sound goal and a good realization.

mary rosenblum

Write what you love, but don't take out loans, expecting to pay them off with the money you'll make writing what you love.

xana

Find a spouse that earns a decent income :-)

mary rosenblum

That, folks, is THE best all round career choice you can make. :-)

mary rosenblum

Not that I've managed to follow my own advice, but I really do envy the full time writers I know with supportive spouses (who have health insurance!).

geezer

If you hate what you are writing it probably won't be good

mary rosenblum

Absolutly. Ask yourself...would I rather write this or would I rather work at the Post Office and write what I want when I get home?

sol

Hey . . . my spouse does okay, but he still frets . . . and so do I because . . .

sol

. . . I'm not contributing enough to ease the stress. Sigh! . . .

mary rosenblum

Well, in your case, if you can simply contribute to the family income, that will help.

mary rosenblum

Now.

mary rosenblum

Here's the kicker.

mary rosenblum

It is much harder to support yourself in fiction than in nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

The nonfiction market is HUGE.

mary rosenblum

Editors have very clear and simple needs.

mary rosenblum

It is not about the individual author.

mary rosenblum

They simply have a magazine that needs to be filled with competant articles and they will pay you to fill them.

mary rosenblum

It is merely a matter of hard work to make yourself a career in freelance nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

The fiction market is all about reader enthusiasm.

mary rosenblum

If readers like your style, your book makes money.

sol

. . . But I still don't want to write just anything for anybody.

mary rosenblum

Then you really need to look for a dayjob you can live with sol. Write what you love, send it out to publishers, and hope that lightning strikes you

mary rosenblum

and you sell a blockbuster.

mary rosenblum

While we could all wish that we could write when the muse dictates and we'd make a comfortable living, that rarely rarely happens.

sol

How does a writer handle the details of the business aspect? . . .

mary rosenblum

If you have taken the leap and you are going to declare yourself a full time writer to the IRS (that's what I do), then you should really find an accountant

mary rosenblum

who handles writers/artists/muscians and let that person tell you what records to keep and how.

mary rosenblum

The IRS hates writers, and I bet our Canadian counterparts do, too.

mary rosenblum

Meticulous record keeping is essential.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

sady

If you were just starting out, and wanted to write NF, what steps would you take?

mary rosenblum

Sady, it's a matter of breaking in. Choose several magazines that you think you could write for pretty easily.

mary rosenblum

Either you have an interest in their topics or you have some personal experience, or you know a lot of people you can interview.

mary rosenblum

Now do the homework. Read a year's worth of back issues. Yes. A year's worth.

mary rosenblum

What has the editor published? (Don't query on that topice).

mary rosenblum

What is the style of the magazine? Who are the readers?

mary rosenblum

Now start querying.

mary rosenblum

Bet you that you get a yes before you've queried too many times and get your first assignment from the editor within a few months.

mary rosenblum

Editors can tell when you've done your homework and that tell's em you're a pro.

unicorn

You are right Mary. Revenue Canada doesn't like writers

mary rosenblum

I figured not. :-) No tax service does.

xana

There must be at least one good book out there on what kinds of records writers should keep and how to keep them. Any recommendations?

mary rosenblum

Go read the transcript of my interview with John Caton, my own accountant.

mary rosenblum

He had some recommendations for what to keep and how to organize things.

kayjay

Where would you look for those mags?

mary rosenblum

Try libraries, Kayjay.

mary rosenblum

Write to the publisher and ask for several back issues. It's going to cost you money, but it's a business expense.

mary rosenblum

Watch rummage sales. Just buy issues at the bookstore for a few months until you get a feel for the magazine.

sol

Why don't they like writers?

mary rosenblum

The expenses and income are kind of 'fuzzy' and many writers keep very bad records.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

peacerose

Is it best to wait for an editor to tell you what to write

mary rosenblum

Peace, at first, in NF, you'll have to prove yourself to the editor -- that you can write.

mary rosenblum

Once you have lots of clips you're better off, but you'll still have to send in a proposal to make your first sale.

mary rosenblum

Often, the editor will ask for a different piece.

mary rosenblum

I sent in a query to a dog magazine recently. The editor didn't want that particular piece, but she asked for two other articles.

mary rosenblum

YOu'll be choosing the topice you propose. But as with the dog mag, the editor may ask for something else.

mary rosenblum

Now if you have no clips, that probably won't happen. The editor will just say no thanks.

mary rosenblum

She can't afford the risk that you won't turn in the piece on deadline.

mary rosenblum

But once you have sold something to her, she'll feel freer to ask you for specific pieces.

mary rosenblum

And then, when you have sold a few ...usually VERY few...pieces to the editor, you'll get an email or call asking you to do a specific piece.

mary rosenblum

Editors hand out assignments to their regular writers all the time.

aelle

strange question, I know, but what kind of dogs do you have?

mary rosenblum

Hi, aelle. :-) I have Rottweilers, do obedience, tracking, and herding with 'em.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

charie'

What percentage should you put aside from earnings to pay taxes?

mary rosenblum

If you're going to live on what you make writing, you will live the VERY scary existance of no regular paycheck.

mary rosenblum

That means budgeting is critical.

mary rosenblum

You have to know exactly how much you need for taxes, utlities, insurance, and whatever is left over, you can use to buy groceries. :-)

dim writer

Heal is asking what are clips

mary rosenblum

Oh, sorry, heal.

mary rosenblum

'clips' are examples of your published articles.

mary rosenblum

They used to be literally 'clipped out' of the magazine with scissors. Now you can copy a piece easily.

mary rosenblum

It shows the editor that you CAN write a publishable article.

heal

Do you send clips in with a query

mary rosenblum

Yes, nearly all NF guidelines will instruct you to include clips. You don't need to send in ALL your clips if you have lots.

mary rosenblum

You can send in a couple of the most pertinent and list a few others.

mary rosenblum

For fiction, always list your published stories. You don't need to...should not...send copies of those.

geezer

I got my first reject. It said we can't use this. Does that mean it stinks or just what the said?

mary rosenblum

Means what it says, geeze.

mary rosenblum

Most publishers have a 'it stinks' version. Don't worry. That's not it.

sady

If my article is in an online magazine, would I send a printout or just give a link?

mary rosenblum

If you're querying by email, you can include the live link. Make sure the piece is still up. If you're querying by letter, include a printout.

mary rosenblum

The way you make money in fiction is from reprints...you get your published stories into anthologies.

mary rosenblum

It's also in writing for invitation.

mary rosenblum

You get invited to contribute original work to anthologies and they usually pay good money.

mary rosenblum

You write novels that stay in print and pay royalties. THAT you have no direct control over. :-)

mary rosenblum

Most publishers no longer keep a 'mid list' so the traditional NY houses let books go out of print quickly, unless the sales are very good.

heal

Would clips include a national newsletter

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, heal.

geezer

How do I get an invitation?

mary rosenblum

Sell good stories that get reviews and attention in the publishing world, geeze.

mary rosenblum

Watch for 'open' anthologies.

mary rosenblum

The editor wont' entirely fill most antholgies with invitations and will have slots open for others.

mary rosenblum

These pay less, but they're a place to get published.

mary rosenblum

And usually the anthologies will be reviewed, so you can get some exposure.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

In the NF market, start small.

mary rosenblum

The small circulation magazines don't pay much, but they are desperate for good writers, and it's relatively easy to break in.

mary rosenblum

Then you have clips.

mary rosenblum

Keep moving up.

mary rosenblum

Query larger and larger magazines. As you step up that ladder, your money will grow.

mary rosenblum

You want to establish yourself with the top magazines.

dim writer

Where would you find that info Mary? On anthologies?

mary rosenblum

Watch the writers lists. Become an associate member of your genre organization (SFWA MWA HWA etc) so that you get their newsletter.

mary rosenblum

That often has a market list section (MWA is awful, SFWA is pretty good.)

mary rosenblum

Watch my new market updates topic on the LR website.

mary rosenblum

Realize that you will make more money doing something else. :-) Do it because you'd rather do this and be poor than do something else and make more money. There is NO other reason to do it.

mary rosenblum

Me, I LOVE my commute and precarious as my life has been at various times, I wouldn't trade this for anything.

mary rosenblum

So I'm crazy. :-)

charie'

What sort of time frame do the NF editors expect for you to provide the article?

mary rosenblum

Frequently quite quickly, charie. Like a couple of weeks. Don't query unless you have all your ducks in a row first.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes it's like a few days!

mary rosenblum

The editor might have a slot in the next issue....if you can fill it for her with a three day turnaround, she'll owe you, and you'll get a plum from her next time.

mary rosenblum

Never say now.

mary rosenblum

oops.

mary rosenblum

Never say no.

mary rosenblum

When I get an anthology invitation, I say yes.

mary rosenblum

I'll figure out a story to fit it later!

mary rosenblum

When I get a NF article lead, I go for it.

mary rosenblum

If you meet someone you KNOW would provide a saleable interview, schedule the interview now and query editors later.

aelle

Do contests help you break in to paying markets?

mary rosenblum

Well, yes and no, aelle.

mary rosenblum

A few very well known contests like the Writers Digest contest and the Writers of the Future are big enough and reputable enough that a win there

mary rosenblum

will at least get an editor's attention.

mary rosenblum

But any contest win tells an editor you were better than some other writers, at least.

mary rosenblum

But don't send to a contest instead of a for pay market.

mary rosenblum

You're always better off with a sale than a contest win.

dim writer

Do you write novels and short stories at same time?

mary rosenblum

Oh yes. Currently, I have two novels in progress (ch 8 on one ch 5 on the other) one mystery short story and I got leaned on by the editor of Asimov's for

mary rosenblum

a new story, so make that one mystery ss and one SF short story.

mary rosenblum

When I bog down on one, I work on something else.

mary rosenblum

Let's talk about how to start a NF career.

sady

Back to goals...Let's say I wanted to set an interim goal for myself for year one. Probably earned would not be feasible, maybe better to work toward x-number of submissions or queries? (I'm rather goal-oriented.)

mary rosenblum

yes, sady.

mary rosenblum

Let's talk about starting that NF career.

mary rosenblum

I would start by inventorying your own areas of interest/expertise.

mary rosenblum

What do you do? Gardening? Dogs? Parrots? Crafts? Sewing?

mary rosenblum

Decide that you will query at least two magazines a week this year.

mary rosenblum

yeah. Two.

mary rosenblum

Or more.

mary rosenblum

Start 'clustering'.

mary rosenblum

Okay. Gardening.

mary rosenblum

Think 'tips' articles...many mags have 'reader tip' departments. A well written submission introduces you to the edtior even if it doesn't pay.

mary rosenblum

Do you have a fancy nursery nearby?

mary rosenblum

Waht about an interview with the owner?

mary rosenblum

Bet you can propose three or four articles from that interview.

mary rosenblum

How about the local garden store owner? Purchasing trends?

mary rosenblum

Pitch that to a magazine.

mary rosenblum

See what I mean?

mary rosenblum

Go at this logically...slant allows you to use the same pool of information to write a number of articles.

mary rosenblum

One of my students recently sold six articles all based on ONE interview with an artist. Sold all six.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about the realities of making a living, writing. I've published eight novels , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

dim writer

Wow Mary. How do you seperate them in yuor mind?

mary rosenblum

Oh they're like alternate universes, dim. I revise the previous few pages and by the time I come to where I left off, I"m back in that world and those characters.

charie'

Do you query the same idea to similar magazines, hoping one will accept?

mary rosenblum

No, charie. VERY dangerous. If two editors say yes, the one you dissapoint will not buy from you again. BAd move.

mary rosenblum

Query different slants to different magazines. Sell them all.

charie'

Are you obligated to tell competitors that you've sold other articles on the same subject?

mary rosenblum

YOU are obligated to not sell the same slant in the same sales arena, charie.

mary rosenblum

You can sell six different gardening articles with different slants and they can all appear on the same bookstore shelves at the same time.

mary rosenblum

No problem.

mary rosenblum

Your contract with the mag usually stipulates that you cannot publish the same slant within a certain period of time of this article's publication.

charie'

Then how did the person sell six articles from the same interview?

mary rosenblum

One was on the artist's challenges as a woman.

mary rosenblum

One was on the technique she used...sold to a mag for artists.

mary rosenblum

One was her bio for a regional mag.

mary rosenblum

One was on the art exhibition that she exhibited in.

mary rosenblum

The other two were slightly different, too. Magazine articles are VERY narrow.

mary rosenblum

It's VERY easy to sell three to five articles from one pool of information.

charie'

Sounds like the author was VERY creative.

mary rosenblum

Once you understand just how narrow the mag market is, it's VERY easy to be inventive.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at lilacs.

mary rosenblum

I'll sell article one: an interview with a local lilac breeder. (And that's my info pool)

mary rosenblum

Article two: new varieties of lilacs coming out.

mary rosenblum

Article three: Lilac diseases

mary rosenblum

Article Four: Overwintering woes.

mary rosenblum

Article five: Fertlizing for maximum bloom

mary rosenblum

All to different magazines.

aelle

So until you have clips, you write and send in the article?

mary rosenblum

Usually you will be asked to query, aelle.

mary rosenblum

If you have no clip, send a 'writing sample'.

mary rosenblum

But you know what?

mary rosenblum

If you look at mags that pay very little or pay nothing, you can get published. Write a really good article and you have a clip

mary rosenblum

even if you didn't get a check for it.

mary rosenblum

Send that clip.

sol

These examples are very helpful! Makes it clear.

mary rosenblum

The THE real key to succeeding in NF is understanding slant, sol.

mary rosenblum

Once you have slant, you can sell.

mary rosenblum

It only requires competant writing. But if you don't understand slant, you'll be writing stuff that is too broad for the mag.

mary rosenblum

Think of your information pool as a wedge of cheese.

mary rosenblum

Now use a cheese planer to slice of very very thin slices. There you are.

mary rosenblum

Mostly the reality of making a living is:

mary rosenblum

In Nonfiction...do your homework...read back issues.

mary rosenblum

Send out queries constantly.

mary rosenblum

Start small and work up.

mary rosenblum

Keep good records! Always ALWAYS make that deadline even if you pay to Fedex the copy.

mary rosenblum

For Fiction

mary rosenblum

Define your goals.

mary rosenblum

Do you want to write what YOU want to write?

mary rosenblum

Then keep your day job.

mary rosenblum

Otherwise write the best you can and keep writing and submitting until you find your niche. Then write whatever a publisher will pay you to write. Whatever it is.

mary rosenblum

Do not sit back and wait for something to sell before you start the next project.

mary rosenblum

The reality is that you will work as hard as a writer as you would at any other job. That's why you should love to do it. :-0

mary rosenblum

(actually, you may work harder!).

mary rosenblum

But the commute is great. :-)

charie'

How many hours should you write if you can't afford to quit your day job?

mary rosenblum

As many as you can ,charie.

mary rosenblum

When I had two kids at home as a single mom, I wrote until I literally fell asleep at the keyboard at night

mary rosenblum

and at dawn, before the kids got up. And in every spare second when I didn't have both hands full.

mary rosenblum

The more hours you spend, the more likely you are to start selling.

mary rosenblum

Practice counts.

sady

And you can work in your jammies!

mary rosenblum

Or without them heheh.

mary rosenblum

The myth is that you can write a few hours and make a fortune.

mary rosenblum

As I said earlier, it can happen. So can getting struck by lightning. Don't bank on it.

charie'

With bunny slippers!

mary rosenblum

There you go. The image is getting funnier by the second.

info

When you do have your hands full, you're still writing by plotting the next part of the story,right?

mary rosenblum

Yeah. A part of my brain is busy with my chapter five right now. Soon as I get off here, I'll go back to that Word document sitting right behind this chat page.

sol

Thanks, Mary! You make me laugh and give me hope.

mary rosenblum

Hope is a critical part of writing,sol. So is a LOT of hard work. The more you write the better you will get, the more likely you are to sell.

mary rosenblum

That is the chain of success.

mary rosenblum

never quit hoping. Lots of people had very slow starts and blossomed later.

mary rosenblum

The market shifts, and suddenly what you're writing is hot.

mary rosenblum

Well, I'll post this in the usual place.

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Do join us Sunday for our casual get together.

mary rosenblum

RIght here, same time as the Forum.

mary rosenblum

We just talk about whatever. It's lots of fun.

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming, all!

mary rosenblum

Go write. :-)

mary rosenblum

Ah, Charie, I caught that.

mary rosenblum

Horizons is officially out on Monday, as I recall.

mary rosenblum

It shipped this week, so it should be on the shelves.

mary rosenblum

It might be in some stores now.

mary rosenblum

See you all Sunday.

 

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