|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Hello all!
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Welcome to our Friday After
Hours Forum.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I hope you're all enjoying
some spring weather! It finally warmed up and got sunny here in western
Oregon...I have shed various layers all over my garden today! I'll have to
go retrieve them before dark.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I wanted to talk about First
Person POV tonight because most novice writers feel that it's easier than
third person and tend to use it a lot
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
when actually it's much harder
to do well, and does carry a bit of a price.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
The main weakness of first
person POV is that everything is, of course, told.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
So the readers are reminded at
every sentence that they are not living the adventure with the POV
character, but instead the POV is telling the story.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Now you compensate for that in
good first person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
There, your narrator, your POV
character (POV = Point of View) can explain, elaborate, comment to the
readers.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
You can add a lot of insight
and information that isn't easily conveyed in action and dialogue and the
small amount of internal narrative that works with third person.
|
|
charge2charge
|
random--Do I have to ask an
acquaintance of mine if I can use their name, physical description, and
personality before I use them in a story?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
You can't get sued unless you
libel that person, charge. But I personally don't consider it ethical to
use a real person in a fiction story unless that person wants you to do
that. (And I won't it even then).
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
You are putting your friend on
a public stage for a lot of strangers to see. That makes many people VERY
uncomfortable.
|
|
info
|
If the first person POV story is
told well, the reader could still feel as if they are part of the
adventure, couldn't they?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Yes, indeed, info. You can
make the readers feel as if they're standing next to the POV, a friend along
on this adventure,.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Where first person fails is
when the writer writes as if he/she is using third person...that is, the
narrator merely described the action and dialogue of other characters. It
really tends to become the author telling the story through the voice of a
character and it's VERY flat.
|
|
geezer
|
Also off topic. I was told that
in third person if the MC was in the scene he ALWAYS had to be the POV. Is
that true?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Not at all, although you're
better off in short fiction to stick to one POV. But in a novel, you may
switch to the POV of a secondary character and we may see the main
character through his eyes. You may have two main characters.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I do in 'Horizons' and each is
POV in scenes that include the other main character.
|
|
sss1208
|
could you give examples of good
1st pov and bad pov and third pov etc
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Sure sss.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Here's a third person POV
scene.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Cary stepped into the living
room. Andrew was already there, looking grumpy. Sheila was busy with her
needlepoint, and the sherry decanter, on the sideboard was already a third
down. She
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
waved to everybody, marched
over and filled one of Aunt May's little sherry glasses. Drank it down,
filled it again, and drank that. By now, all eyes were on her..
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Okay this is third person, and
Cary is our POV. Now I'll do first person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I stepped into the living
room. Andrew was already there, looking grumpy. Sheila was busy with her
needlepoint and the sherry decanter on the sideboard was already a third
down. I gave everybody a wave, marched over and filled one
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
of Aunt May's little sherry
glasses. Drank it down, filled it again, and drank that. by now, all eyes
were on me.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
There really isn't any
difference is there? I simply substituted I for Cary and that's what I
mostly see in first person. If it's a third person scene with I instead of
a name, why not do third person? It's much easier for readers to identify
with that third person character who is NOT telling.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
BUT...it CAN be stronger.
Here's what I mean.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I stepped into the living
room. Oh brother, the perfect Family Dysfunctional portrait. Andrew was
pouting, Sheila was hiding in her needlepoint like always and the sherry
decanter on the sideboard was already a third down. Not enough to
anesthetize the wounded feelings, just enough to make everybody cranky.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I marched over to it, not
bothering to do the cheery-hello thing, filled one of Aunt May's rediculous
little cut glass thimbles that she calls sherrry glasses,
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
drank it down, refilled it,
and looked around in the vain hope that somebody had left an old fashioned
glass out. I needed a lot more booze for what was about to come down. And
of course,
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
by this time, all eyes were on
me.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Compare this with the first
version of First Person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
There, you got the same action
and internal narrative as in the third person scene.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Here, we get a LOT more of
Cary's thoughts. We find out this is a family problem, Cary is not all
looking forward to whatever is going to happen, Sheila uses her needlepoint
to avoid conversation or confrontation and so forth.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Plus we have the character's
voice and tone to give us a sense of her as a character and how she feels
about whatever is going on.
|
|
andipandi10
|
Is it like telling someone what
happened to you today?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Yes, and yes, andi. You've
been stuck with the water-cooler bore who describes at length how he spent
his weekend gardening, right? IN painstaking detail no less!
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But I"m sure you also
know the person who can have you rolling on the floor with laughter at the
same story of struggling to fight off the mammoth slugs in his neglected
backyard.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
It's all about HOW you do it.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Don't be the water cooler bore
is all. You don't have to be humorous, but you do need to make the scenes
MORE than simply a monotone description of action and dialogue.
|
|
macary
|
Consider the dysf. fam scene in
a 1pov letter to a friend...
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Well, that depends on whether
the author writes entertaining letters or those 'I did this, I did that'
boring ones! LOL
|
|
sss1208
|
So, from your example, I get we
should do third person and use I instead of Cary and elaborate the
details,enticing us to read the next chapter?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
sss, 'I" is only used in
first person. Third person uses 'he, she, and proper names'.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But if your first person
narrator is ONLY describing what is going on, maybe you should try third
person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If your narrator is commenting
on what is going on, adding his or her spin and personality to it, you're
fine.
|
|
macary
|
Oh yes; one of those amazing
GUESS WHAT Sally letters...
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
There you go! Exactly. :-)
With all the character voice that you would use in that letter, only of
course, you're creating the voice of your character.
|
|
macary
|
What is the most effective form
of mixed POV/ media?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I'm not sure what you mean
here, macary? Want to elaborate a bit?
|
|
macary
|
I took care of it (poorly worded
originally)
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Oh, okay. :-)
|
|
rae
|
When it's done well, it is
wonderful, but it isn't always done well. How can you be sure what you are
writing is done well?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Ay, there's the rub, eh? :-)
How do you EVER know when what you write is done well? You're doing the
best you can, always...if you knew it could be better you'd MAKE it better,
right?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Do two things.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Give your work to readers and
ask questions. Was this funny? DId you get this? Did it seem like a real
person talking or not?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
And two....even more
important...read and analyze what other writers do. Did that scene wow you?
Why?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
How did he/she do it?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Learn from others who are
ahead of you.
|
|
macary
|
Peer Review
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Exactly.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Just take all critiques with a
sprinkle of salt. Maybe they're on target, maybe they're not. Think about
'em for awhile and you'll usually get a sense of what works and what's 'off
the mark'.
|
|
charie'
|
How do you keep from repeating
"I" all over the place?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Just don't use it.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Do you use 'I' all the time
when you're chatting with friends. You use it some. But you're in a
conversation. You're not speaking English teacher watching English.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
So you use I the way you'd use
it in conversation. Sentence fragments are fine. Poor grammar is fine if
that's the way your narrator talks.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I got to tell you, that
Sherry, over on Firth? She's weird. You know how she always dresses Goth,
all black, even the nails ans stuff? Well, me and Tully we gave her a hard
time last week. And okay, I followed her home,
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
figure'd it'd make her
nervous, you know? So she gets off at Parkway, and I get off and I figure
she'd hurry. But it's almost like she's walking slow, making sure she don't
lose me. Now, she didn't like look back, see?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
You use 'I" when you'd
use it.
|
|
sss1208
|
Mary please print the example in
transcript, so I and others can analyze it. The example of Cary, Sheilla
and Andrew. Thanks
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Eveyrthing I type here and all
the questions you send to the stage end up in the transcripts, sss.
|
|
sss1208
|
Spell checker is always telling
me sentence fragment or passive voice or use that is instead of that's , do
we pay attention to spell checker?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
That's not your spell checker,
sss, it's your grammar checker.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Mine is turned off. It gets
hysterical when you write dialogue or narrative voice and often, I hate to
tell you, it is wrong.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
It can't analyze content,
after all, just particular word combinations.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If your grammar is very weak,
it's a help, but not particularly for fiction, where you want to use a
character's voice even in third person.
|
|
rae
|
So it is really just a case of
being in the voice of the character, right?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Exactly. If your narrator's
voice is no stronger than third person, make it third person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If your narrator is very
clearly a person with a personality that you quickly get acquainted with,
first person is fine.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Now there ARE some reasons to
use first or third.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Third person is much easier to
write if your story includes lots of action.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Your POV may be too busy to
stop and sightsee in detail. There is nothing more phony than somebody
engaged in a sword fight
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
who waxes poetic over the fat
creamy magnolia blossoms and the smell of new mown grass.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Yah, sure. I want to take that
guy on on the fencing mat, thank you.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
BUT, if your main character is
going to be spending a lot of time in his/her own head...maybe first person
is better. Now the POV can talk to the readers instead of including a ton
of internal narrative.
|
|
sassyt
|
Have you ever seen a book where
third is used primarily and then first person insights are used at chapter
ends? Have you ever seen it work to have mixed pov ?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Sure. I actually have two
students right now who are mixing first and third person POVs successfully.
These are novels, realize, but they have one character who tells her side
of the story and then we see the other main character's
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
side of the story in third
person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
As long as the start of your
chapter is VERY clear so that readers instantly recognize which character
POV they're in, it can work.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But it IS difficult.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
It can be quite effective if
the first person chapters are a diary.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
However...remenber...just
because you CAN do something does not mean you will do it well. Well
matters!
|
|
sassyt
|
Excellent news for me. I needed
to show those thoughts that would not be told or shown before anyone
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But remember, Sassy, what I am
describing is a story with two main characters. One is ONLY using first,
the other is ONLY in third. Do not show your main character in third
sometimes and then use that first person voice at others. MAJOR confusion
will result.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
The main strength of the first
person narrator is the ability to give inside information to the readers.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
You can do action,
description, and reader engagement much more effectively in third.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But if its going to be hard to
let the readers find out all the things they need to know through action
and dialogue...try first person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
My next novel project is
actually in first person...all my novels have been in third.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But this is an alternate
history where the Aztec nation didn't get destroyed by the spaniards. It's
set in the 1800s and I need to let my MC, Gerard, talk to the readers
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
so that he can give them all
the information they'll need to know about how this alternate history
played out.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If I had to show it all
through action and dialogue, I'd be jumping through so many hoops I'd wear
both myself and my readers out.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
(And you can get a preview
this summer in an anthology called 'Sideways In Time'. The story that
launched the novel is called 'Sacrifice').
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
The story got a VERY nice
review in Publisher's Weekly. :-)
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But I rarely do first person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
In this case, I really needed
to.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I would nor use first person
unless you have reason to.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
And by the way, the same
caveats apply to narrative voice, if you're writing personal memoir or
personal essays.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If all you are doing is
describing action and dialogue, you're going to bore readers.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
They WANT a sense of you, the
narrator, and it really does not come across unless you create yourself as
a character
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
the same way you create a
fictional character.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Good narrative voice is what
distinguishes personal memoir from saleable personal memoir.
|
|
sassyt
|
Can we use "I" in
expressing internal thought while writing in third?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
That's 'quoted thought' sassy,
and it's problematic. We do not think in narrative very often. So when you
have your MC thinking in narrative
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
it sounds phony.
|
|
rae
|
I have a novella I am writing in
1st person. It is a personal memoir about being in an orphange. Should I
rethink it, and do it in 3rd?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Rae, we equate third person
with fiction.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If you are writing about your
experiences, do not use third person.
|
|
macary
|
think of new ways to unfold
reality in words
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
That's a good way of putting
it, macary. First person allows you to put 'personal spin' on what is going
on, on stage.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
It can be your character's
spin (fiction) or your spin (personal narrative) but it elaborates,
embroiders, enriches, action and dialogue.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
And...it should reveal the
personality of the narrator, whether that is you or a made up character.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
If you want good examples of
narrative voice, read some of the excellent nonfiction narrative writers.
|
|
info
|
Question stemming from sassy's
question. I do realize that we don't generally think complete sentences,
but what if our MC is angered and thinks "I'll get you?" Would
that still be problematic?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Not at all. We often think in
short sentences. We just don't tend to think in long sentences. :-) LOL, I
was just shearing an 18 month old wether who is going to get butchered
tomorrow and he was kicking the daylights out of me. I remember thinking
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
'I'm going to eat you' quite
grimly as I was dodging the flying hooves.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
That was a nice, complete
sentence, but I was speaking to that *&% wether in my head. I was not
thinking my own thoughts.
|
|
sss1208
|
what happens when you have 16
different opinions relating to a yard sale article/ Whose on first?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
I"m not sure what you
mean, sss?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But a to thought...if we are
speaking to someone, either an imaginary person or someone where we don't
really want to say that out loud, then we do use dialogue form.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
But when we're just reacting
to things going on, thinking our own thoughts, we don't gtend to use
dialogue form.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Well, this has been a fun
forum and I hope it has helped you with first person.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
This is a very powerful tool
in writing, but it tends to be used poorly by novice writers.
|
|
rae
|
may I ask a question off topic?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Sure, but quick, rae. I need
to finish up hgere
|
|
rae
|
What are your personal thoughts
regarding self-publishing versis regular publishing?
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Rae, that's an hour's worth of
conversation because it depends a LOT on you, the writer. I'll do a forum
on it on April 25.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Two weeks from now.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Yoiu all have a great weekend!
I hope spring is springing for you. I"ll post the transcript of this
Forum in the usual place:
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
Do join my Sunday for our
casual chat...
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
same time as this forum, but
we just talk about whatever. It's lots of fun.
|
|
Mary Rosenblum
|
See you there!
|