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Mary Rosenblum
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Hello all!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours Forum.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Red brought this topic up at a
casual chat a week or so ago and we had quite a lively discussion.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's a concept that is
integral to everything except factual writing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And it's a concept that is
many many layered and covers a LOT of ground.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's very complex which is
why, I suspect, few writers do it very well.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Powerful characterization puts
you on top of the slush pile. Period.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It sounds so simple, right?
Create a real character on the page.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But doing that involves every
aspect of the writing process.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You have to reveal the complex
personality of a human being through what the readers can see/hearon the
page.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Simply telling the readers is
about as useful as your cousing saying, 'Have you met Aunt Mildred? She's
really nice."
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Mary Rosenblum
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You don't really know Aunt
Mildred. You have no idea what she's like as a person. Your cousin thinks
she's nice.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When you meet Aunt Mildred,
take a trip to Connecticut with her, have dinner with her, talk about your
family in the car as the hours pass, THEN you start to know her.
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Mary Rosenblum
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By the end of the trip, she's
a real person to you. A friend.
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Mary Rosenblum
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We have to do that in the
course of a novel. Or a short story. That's a real challenge, believe me.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Where do you start?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Think about how you get to
know a new person in the neighborhood or a new co-worker.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You notice their clothes,
their personal hygiene, their body type.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You hear their accent, their
vocabulary. You begin to draw conclusions. Southern accent, college
educated, dresses very neatly but clothes are from Wal Mart, watches
weight...
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Mary Rosenblum
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never goes out for a beer
after work, hurries home.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What does that person mention
in her conversation?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Bed ridden mom, estranged
brother, no father...
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Mary Rosenblum
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the picture begins to build.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Most importantly...MOST
importantly...
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Mary Rosenblum
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you observe that person's
actions.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Is she polite? Impatient? Gets
frazzled easily? Does she help othrers when she doesn't have to?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Does she whine?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Does she always make excuses.
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Mary Rosenblum
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We are walking jigsaw puzzles.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When we meet a new person we
have this person shaped blank space.
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Mary Rosenblum
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We fill that blank space in
with piece after piece after piece
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Mary Rosenblum
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until we have a full color,
three dimensional person.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You the same thing the same
way in your fiction or personal narratives.
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ginas
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so isn't it pretty hard to do
this in the first person?
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Mary Rosenblum
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To reveal the personality of
the first person narrator?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Of course.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Unless your first person
narrator is pretty self aware and pretty anxious to self-analyze
(plausibly) for the readers, your narrator isn't going to admit to personality
traits
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Mary Rosenblum
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or describe his or her
personality traits. This is, ahem, one reason why first person is actually
more difficulit to write than third.
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Mary Rosenblum
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BUT...
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Mary Rosenblum
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Just as your new co worker
reveals herself by what she says, so will your first person character. So
must YOU if you're writing a personal narrative.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What does your narrator have
to say about this situation? How does he feel about that character, that
situation?
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Mary Rosenblum
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What does he recall from his
past?
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Mary Rosenblum
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YOu are handing the readers
those critical jigsaw pieces every time your narrator opens his or her
mouth.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And...this is the writer part,
folks...you set your characters up intentionally to reveal what you need to
reveal about that character.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Put some pressure on your
character. How does he react? What does the reader learn?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That he's a natural leader?
That she's stronger than her girly behavior suggests?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That he's going to stand back
and let someone else take the hit?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It doesn't have to be life and
death pressure. It can be a traffic jam, a fender bender, a tree down
across the road when time is of the essence.
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Mary Rosenblum
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A lost dog, a kid having a
tantrum.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You use all the tools of the
trade to reveal that character's reaction to everything.
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Mary Rosenblum
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body language (which gives us
emotional response and tone of voice).
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Mary Rosenblum
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Verbal responses.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Mental responses (as asides in
first person and internal narrative in third)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Physical responses.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The issue is, if you don't
know your character well, then your character will respond to those plot
elements superficially.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you know your character
deeply, you'll create more nuanced responses that will suggest a three
dimensional person.
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rae
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Doesn't it take longer then one
chapter to get to know the character?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Pretty much takes the whole
book or whole story, rae.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You need to have all your
backstory out of the way by the climax, but readers can still be learning
about the character right up to the end.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Don't people you have known
for years sometimes suprise you?
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barbiq
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My instructor gave me 32
questions to answer for character development. I have found that I don't
always have the answers when I start writing is that normal and okay?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sure. My characterization is
never complete until the end of the first draft.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Then I go back over the entire
manuscript and adjust the characterization all the way through to suit my
complete character.
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red 1
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Can you compare and contrast "character
driven" stories versus "plot driven" (a.k.a "flat"
stories), please?
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Mary Rosenblum
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A plot driven story without
any depth of characterization is one where the character merely reacts to
the plot.
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Mary Rosenblum
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He or she is an obvious type.
The tough sergeant. The servant girl from a poor family.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The character reacts to the
plot elements but in a way that surprpises nobody.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Essentially, the plot dictates
the character reaction and because of that, the character is thin enough to
'bend' with the plot, to coin a metaphor here.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you put a real person into
the same situation, that person may make choices that will derail that
initial plot.
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Mary Rosenblum
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As the character grows and
develops, the choices he/she make are more clearly defined by that person's
past and the plot may have to change to accomodate those choices.
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sheenasc
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And we want our character to be
loved or hated right? Thanks
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well you sure want your
readers to care about that person one way or the other. And if they're
cardboard, they're mildly entertaining, like cartoon characters.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They are hardly real.
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galatyne
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So your events, encounters, etc.
are designed to establish the baseline psyche, then throw that baseline
into seeming chaos while actually developing the character's psyche along
natural paths of growth from that given baseline? I.e. the plot serves to
bring out the character instead of being simply something for the character
to respond to.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What I use them for, gala, is
to establish the underlying flaws, cracks, warps, that are going to cause
everyone problems during the course of the plot, and will ultimately get
fixed...or not .
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Mary Rosenblum
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The character does not respond
to the plot directly. The character''s flaws dfive the character in one
direction, the plot drives in another direction and dramatic tension
resulits.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Simplistic to say, complicated
to do, but that's the effect.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Too bad I can't type tonight!
Sigh.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So your character is driven by
his/her internal imbalances. The plot is an imbalance. And the two collide.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You end up with something that
is kind of a push-pull effect as yoru character's internal problems and
your plot problems sort of shoulder each other for precedence.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But...writerly thing
again...you are working your backside off all the while to make this all
move along toward the end with a lot of forward momentum.
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mander
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Do you find that your characterization
techniques differ between a short story and a novel? Obviously, we're
working with less real estate in a short story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Very much so mander.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In a novel you have time to
develop the character. You can hint at those internal conflicts and flaws
and bring them out slowly as the book progresses.
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Mary Rosenblum
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In a short story, you need to
reveal them and reveal them very quickly.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That way you can start that
plot-character interaction right away.
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red 1
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In a short story where you have
limited time to hook the editor, what about characterization goes through
your mind on the first page?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Something that says to the
readers 'there is an interesting problem here'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Someone's reaction to a
situation is not quite 'right'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Or there's a suggestion that
more is going on under the surface.
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Mary Rosenblum
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This character is under
stress, warped, something is out of balance.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It can be subtle. You don't
want to necessarily hit your readers over the head with it. Although that's
fine, too.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sometimes I can pull that off in
the first line and sometimes it takes longer.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can sustain interest with
action, too, giving yourself a few more lines to throw out that character
hook.
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Mary Rosenblum
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By the end of the first page
in a story I want the reader hooked by the situation and interested in the
character.
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rae
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Isn't it important to show a
good side of the bad guy?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's a bit formulaic, rae.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Creating an evil stereotype
who barbecues infants for breakfast and then making him pet his beloved cat
is kind of...shall we say...forced.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The reality is that bad guys
don't think of themselves as evil villains and the things they do they do
because that's how they have been shaped
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Mary Rosenblum
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by personality, past
experience, and the like.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They are just as complex as
your hero, but they're harder to write well because most of us aren't that
nasty and the origins of that behavior can be hard
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Mary Rosenblum
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to understand.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I've known a few people who
were capable of pretty soulless acts, I have to say, and in their own way,
to their own ethics, they were good people.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Their perception of good and
bad did NOT match mine.
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mander
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when you say "first
page," do you mean the manuscript's first page (in my manuscripts
there's only about 1/2 page of story text since I leave so much room for
header and editor comments, etc.) or do you mean first printed page if the
story were to be published? When my instructor says by the end of the first
page, that really leaves me only a paragraph, two at most, if I go by the
manuscript.
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Mary Rosenblum
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For a short story, I really
try to have readers hooked within the first three paragraphs.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Even if it's simply a
come-hither hint that something really big is going to come down real soon
now.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's put it this way, I'd
LIKE to do it in the first line, but since I'm usually juggling a
universe-in-creation in SF as well as character/plot introduction, I can't
always pull it off that fast.
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red 1
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Do you find that you have a
character first and then build a plot around that character, have a plot
idea and create a character, or a mixture? I know each story is different,
but generally speaking.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I do it both ways, red.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Soemtimes I end up with a
character first and a plot forms around this particular character's needs.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Sometimes I have a cool idea
and have to find a character to suit.
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Mary Rosenblum
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When I get an anthology invite,
I have to find both plot and character to suit a theme. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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If I start with a plot idea, I
ask myself 'who is going to have the most difficulty dealing with this
situation'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Notice I don't ask who is
going to be the best at dealing with it?
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barbiq
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When you began to write did you
find it hard to translate what and how you knew a character to your
stories?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Of course! Goodness!
Characterization is VERY hard to do well. I'm still learning to understand
some things I've simply done.
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galatyne
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What are some good ways to get
in touch with, or become more aware of, how people develop
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Mary Rosenblum
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The most critical element of
characterization is....how clearly do you see people?
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Mary Rosenblum
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How honest are you with
yourself?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can extrapoloate most
character emotions and types from bits and pieces that exist in all of us.
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Mary Rosenblum
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We've all lost our temper at
some point. You can start from that point and get to a killing rage.
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sheenasc
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Mary, can you please sugest a
good forensics book?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Check the Writers Digest
catalog, Sheenasc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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They have a lot of good books
for mystery/crime writers.
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rae
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I am homebound, and don't really
see people on a regular basis. So I rely on what I remember. Does this put
me at a disadvantage? Is there hope for me to become a really good writer
without that type of interaction?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It depends on how comfortable
you are extrapolating from aspects of yourself Rae.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Human emotions are pretty
universal. Problems that mighjt have been small provide the seed that lets
you grow them to something larger that unbalances your characeter.
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mander
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may I ask an off-topic question?
My instructor really liked a short story of mine and suggested that it
would expand into an excellent novel; however, she also said to go ahead
and submit it to short story markets. What are the rules for using a
published short story as the basis for a novel?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's see...three of my SF
novels start with a f chapter that was published in Asimov's as a short
story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Different rights.
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galatyne
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This really sounds like it taps
into the concept of collective unconsious. All the pieces are in us, at
different levels of activity; we just have to take a hard journey inward.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I think that's really the key,
gala.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's the write what you know,
thing.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Maybe you never killed anyone,
but you had that moment when you lost your temper completely and you
realize that this is what your character feels
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Mary Rosenblum
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in a larger way, when he loses
control and kills his brother in a rage.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It gives you a toehold in
reality that colors the fictional version.
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mander
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I find that extrapolating from
myself is an excellent tool. I tend to over-analyze my own comments and
reactions to people and situations and wonder how I might have handled
things better--what I might have done wrong. This can be a flaw for me
because I sometimes will worry for days over some minor incident or
altercation.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Might be very helpfful for
characterization, mander.
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red 1
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Characterization encompasses so
much, but are there one or two "traits" you find are paramount to
good characterization that you habitually squeeze in regardless?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Character trait? Every
character is a different compilation. But each character has a flaw. By
that, I mean that each character has something that needs
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Mary Rosenblum
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to be fixed in order for that
person to be successful in life.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I have to know what my
character needs before I can know if he or she will interact with my plot
the way I want.
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rae
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Are you saying to allow the
imagination to take over?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes. Even if you don't get out
much, you'll find your basic human behaviors inside your own self if you
care to look. Less extreme than your charactes, often./ But there.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I often think of
characterization as a long hard look down into your darker places.
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sheenasc
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Does there have to be a why,for
everything a character does?
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Mary Rosenblum
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There's a why for every last
thing you do, sheen. Even if you're not conscious of it. So yes.
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Mary Rosenblum
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The reader doesn't have to
know it but YOU do.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Because the key to 'real' is
consistent.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Every reader is an expert on
human behavior.
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Mary Rosenblum
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We may not be able to put our
fingers on what is wrong, but if a character behaves inconsistently, our
hindbrain says 'plot puppet' and we don't really care.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That character becomes a
cartoon character. Fun to play with but nothing to lose sleep over.
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zave
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what factor do real emotions
play in characterization?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, you have to experience
real emotions before you can write about a character experiencing them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But we've all done that.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You don't have to experience
the death of your beloved to know what grief feels like.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You've probably grieved for
something before you're very old.
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red 1
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Assuming one is good at reading
people and understanding more or less what makes people tick, the trick is
to take that knowledge and encorporate it into the story line as
characterization. Any suggestions for practical application?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It makes it SO much easier to
deal with people int he reaal world, she says, chuckling.
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Mary Rosenblum
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If you can figure out what's
driving someone...what that person's internal need is, you can avoid that
particular sore spot or deflect it or just let things go past that maybe
would have ticked you off otherwise.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's nice if you're in a
position where you have to keep a lot of people working together smoothly,
red. :-)
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red 1
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I recently heard it is very
difficult to express an emotion, but we can write a scene that depicts this
emotion without saying what it is. I was thinking that is what
characterizatin does for thacharacter -- depicts the character without
saying, "he is nice."
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's characterization in a
nutshell, red.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So how do we SHOW our
character being nice?
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barbiq
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How important is showing your
character to the reader...can you be delibertly vague with physical
descriptions?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You bet. Readers like to
create their ideal character. Give them basics. Gender!!! Age. Build. Race.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So nice?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Hmm?
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Mary Rosenblum
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What is going to make the
readers think nice instead of saying 'she's nice'.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So what makes you think
someone is nice?
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Mary Rosenblum
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What do they do?
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rae
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I tend to show then doing nice
things.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Helping someone, doing things
for people, right/
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sheenasc
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Maybe, she takes a homebound
person dinner?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Good. Cuts the neighbor's lawn
because he can't do it, always brings food over for any occasion, buys
extra for neighbors at the store...
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Mary Rosenblum
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that sort of thing, right?
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Mary Rosenblum
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So this person is nice.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And we quickly tag her right?
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laina
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she is always thinking of others
and shows it it what she does by serving others
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jrp
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Unfortunately is nice not
usually boring?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yeah, if that's all we see.
It's think.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's that archetype that I was
talking about. The Nice Neighbor Lady.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So let's suggest more to her.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Maybe our POV at a perfectly
ordinary 'nice' function, say a church tea where our Nice Lady is serving,
looks over as someone says something
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Mary Rosenblum
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and sees utter hatred in this
woman's eyes. Then, she turns away, spills hot tea water on herself, is
flustered for a second and goes back into Nice mode.
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sss1208
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are you saying, that nice
neighbor lady turns out to be the bad person
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Mary Rosenblum
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Not necessarily.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But she has a past that makes
her feel hate at that particular moment.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It might be the sight of a
person, mention of a name, or she really hates being Nice and she's doing
it because of a strong internal pressure.
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jrp
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Is that the balance? Good vs
mean?
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's a way of suggesting that
there are more layers here. She is not a shallow stereotype.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Maybe your POV takes a
shortcut one night, guilty about sneaking through back yards and finds her
sitting on the back porch, obviously drunk and crying silently.
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galatyne
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It's one thing to find our
emotional experiences and draw on that feeling, but it's another to grasp
the different ways that emotion can be expressed, or perceived, by
different personalities. And we need those different perspectives. Where
have you found that understanding?
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Mary Rosenblum
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You watch people. All the
time.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Preferably unobtrusively so
that you don't get decked!
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Mary Rosenblum
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I am ALWAYS watching
people...how they interact, how they reveal emotion, how they hide emotion
or try to.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Characterization 101 is all
around you.
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zave
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I find taking a book with me to
read makes me inconspicuous
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Mary Rosenblum
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Good way to do it, zave!
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jrp
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So intrinsically the good person
vs others
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Mary Rosenblum
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I wouldn't say versus others,
jrp.
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Mary Rosenblum
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But nobody is JUST good.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Everybody is a mix of good and
bad.
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Mary Rosenblum
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We follow certain behavior
patterns in certain situations.
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mander
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for those who may not get out as
much, there's a lot of "reality" tv out there. I was watching the
Alaska Experience on Discovery channel and marveling over the stress that
nature can put on normally very close relationships. There are plenty of
other tv examples out there.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I would not use reality TV as
an example if you can avoid it A lot of external stress is used to make the
particpants overly reactive.
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Mary Rosenblum
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You can see a lot of home
movie stuff on You Tube. Just go watch body langauge.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Me,I"d rather sit in the
mall with a cup of coffee and a notebook. :-)
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galatyne
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So basically... the world is
believable... delve into it, see how it works, and use it as a source ;)
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Mary Rosenblum
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there you go, gala.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Nothing beats reality for
verisimilitude in fiction.
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red 1
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Remember that those shows are
chosen by casting directors to find people in the extremes...
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Mary Rosenblum
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they're pretty faked.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, I"ve got to head out
tonight.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll certainly come back to
this topic again.
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Mary Rosenblum
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It's a huge topic and as I
said, covers a LOT of ground.
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rae
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What would you recommend for me?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Watching people out the window,
family and friends when they visit, youtube if you can use it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Think abouit what makes you
react, how, and why.
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Mary Rosenblum
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People are fascinating and
complex. Yoiu'll learn a lot watching them.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Keeps you from being bored
while waiting in line, too.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Have a great weekend, all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I should be here Sunday.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll be at an obedience trial,
but hopefully it will end early.
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Mary Rosenblum
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See you then!
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Mary Rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place. Writing Craft, Forum Transcript.
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