Mary Rosenblum

Hello, all.

In just a few minutes, we'll begin our Professional Connection interview with Jay Lake, writer and editor of Polyphony magazine.

Jay Lake's first story was published in September, 2001. Since then he has sold dozens of stories, been nominated for the Hugo and Campbell awards for his writing, and for the World Fantasy Award for his work as an editor.  Welcome, Jay!

I know we pulled out your of a studio meeting or two

and you nearly got a speeding ticket getting herewant to explain to folk what a studio meeting is?

Jay Lake

Hey guys.

My Hollywood agent set me up with a couple of studio meetings today

where we had preliminary discussions about possible work on properties.

One was to talk about possibly making a feature length animation of my Hugo nominated story

"Into the Gardens of Sweet Night".

The other to talk about me doing treatments for possible conversion to movie properties.

The thing about Hollywood meetings is, no one ever actually decides anything.

These were first-step meetings, and there could be literally a dozen over the next year or so on either project.

Mary Rosenblum

Hollywood is long on enthusiasm and short on signed contracts, from what I hear!

Jay Lake

Oh yeah, that's right

Don't call us, we'll call you just like that Robert Altman movie.

coway

Cool, Jay,,,is this your first story that’s being made into movie?

roe

Wow Jay that sounds so neat.

Jay Lake

Coway, it will be a long time, if ever, before I see a movie. The conversion rate from concept meeting to film is about 1000:1

Might see some option money some time, though.

Mary Rosenblum

What about treatments? I don't know much about Hollywoodjust option money. What are the treatments?

Jay Lake

Treatments are where you write a story concept.

For example, if Tolkein had written LORD OF THE RINGS as a treatment, he might have started with

'Midget finds magic ring, trouble ensues'.

Mary Rosenblum

LOL

Jay Lake

Then gone to the studio. if they expressed interest, he would have written a one- to three-paragraph summary of the plot

then a 3-5 page synopsis. Those are treatments. They can make you , for the basic plot idea

even if someone else writes the script etc.

paja

Hi, Jay. Thanks for coming. These meetings: So who pays for your travel?

Jay Lake

Hey Paja, right now I do. If either of these projects goes forward, the studio will start paying. I happened to be in LA this week anyway

so my agent set up the meetings opportunistically.

Good question

coway

I've hard it's much harder, near impossible to break into Hollywood unless you have connectionsOR in your case are a great published writer.

Jay Lake

Thanks for the compliment. In my case, both. Bluntly, the only reason I got the meetings was the Hugo nomination.

It's not like I could have planned for that. ;-)

Mary Rosenblum

But good you made use of it!

c michael

What is slipstream and what is magic realism??

Jay Lake

Chance favors the prepared mind.

C michael

there's an academic definition of magic realism. There is no real formal definition of slipstream

and besides which, the literary definition of magic realism doesn't quite map to the academic definition (more, this will be a bit long)

Academically, magic realism is a tradition of Latin American fabulism rooted in a strain of Catholicism

which accepts the literal reality of miracles and miraculous occurrences without any need for explanation

cf Marquez's "The Old Man With Enormous Wings".

In publishing terms, magic realism is contemporary fantasy without any effort required or made to 'explain' the magical occurrences and is

often but not exclusively written by writers with Spanish surnames.

Slipstream has a lot of definitions, but the one I like is 'cross-genre fiction with a high degree of literary sensibility.'

That's the definition we go for at POLYPHONY

(I could go on, but thought it might be nice to pause for consideration!)

roe

So Jay tell us about polyphony - exactly what is it?

Jay Lake

Hey, roePOLYPHONY is a serial anthology from Wheatland Press, edited by Deborah Layne and by me (Deborah is also publisher).

We publish once a year (originally twice). We've featured some big name authors you're probably familiar with

but we also have a commitment to publishing a brand-new writer in every volume

and Deb and I were just nominated for a World Fantasy Award for our work on the project. Yeah!!

Oh, pays /word, and the POLYPHONY 5 reading period is late this year, exact dates TBA

Mary Rosenblum

OH, I plan to announce them, Jay, don't worry. I’ve already got a couple of students I'll send your way. LOL.

Jay Lake

Excellent!

Unpublished writers who are good are hard to find. As soon as you guys get good, you get into print.

Mary Rosenblum

I do suggest folks, that you buy a copy and read it before you submityou won't regret reading it. The stories are good!

lbaggins

Does magical realism have anything to do with the "mysticism of the saints" in Catholicism?

Jay Lake

lb, that question's a little out of my depth (lacking as I do an MFA or PhD-Lit) but I'll go out on a limb and say, yes.

Remember that Catholicism can be highly regionalized.

Excuse me one sec.

My agent's cat just ran off with a bill in its mouth

Sorry.

Mary Rosenblum

I'll add to that, because I did do some research into the literary origins of Magic Realism, and yes, Catholicism is indeed part of the origin.

I am Laughing!!!!

Jay Lake

Thank you Mary

Mary Rosenblum

Smart cator well trained!

Jay Lake

I'm laughing too, especially since I'm going to make her pay me back when she returns.

Mary Rosenblum

When she brings you two tens, I'd worry!

paja

Is there a website related to Polyphony?

Jay Lake

Two half twenties is more like it

Yes, paja, it can be found at Wheatland Press  

catydorr

Jay can you talk a little more about slipstream regarding the cross-genre--I have a story that seems to fit into that category.

Jay Lake

Surea lot of my stuff is considered slipsteam.

One of the reasons POLYPHONY exists is that Deb and I were disappointed that not enough of that material was being published in the major markets.

There are some flagship markets for cross-genre, like LEVIATHAN

POLYPHONY (now), to some degree THE THIRD ALTERNATIVE, and STRANGE HORIZONS

but by and large it's not well-supported, for marketing reasons which are fairly obvious on consideration.

Did that answer the intent of the question>

patchworkcat

"Cross-genre fiction with a high degree of literary sensibility" . . . could you rephrase that for dummies, please?

Jay Lake

Not a dummy question at all

and I apologize if I'm talking at a funny level..

To the question

cross-genre means mixing elements of fantasy, science fiction and horror

without regard to the traditional boundaries between the subgenres

while literary sensibility refers to the value placed on style and voice within the text,

whereas much of genre fiction neglects or even deliberately abandons style as a priority.

Slipstream is often very concerned with it.

Did that help?

Mary Rosenblum

I think it did very well, Jay. Mainly, the difference

as I see it is the 'literary sensibility'. It's like mixing Romance and mystery

but it incorporates the emphasis on style of literary fiction. How does THAT sound, Jay?

Jay Lake

Works for me, Mary. Thanks.

lbaggins

How do you set up for a slip? There must be some transition.

Jay Lake

Eh? Don't quite understand the question.

Mary Rosenblum

I think he might be asking for an example?

marty

Can you give us a book example to read?

Mary Rosenblum

Polyphony.

Jay Lake

Of a "slip", meaning how to step between genres? Well, an example book would b

any of the POLYPHONY volumes, or LEVIATHAN 3

or Jeffrey Ford's collection THE FANTASY WRITER'S ASSISTANT.

VanderMeer's CITY OF SAINTS AND MADMEN

all excellent books. ;-)

As to the slip question

if I'm understanding it correctly, the answer is not so much that you set it up

as that the cross-overness is embedded in the story in the first place.

Mary Rosenblum

Here is lbaggins elaboration on her question:

lbaggins

Could you write us an example of a slip from one genre to another?

Jay Lake

Ok, one sec.

The cobblestones thundered with the steps of the golems, great brass constructs

with steam-powered hearts beating deep within their armored chests. High overhead

bone angels circled, a gentle mist of blood wafting from their feathers

to fall in a red mist through the sleeping streets of Los Angeles.

Mary Rosenblum

Cool. Is that yours?

Jay Lake

So we have a steampunk skiffy trope, a religion fantasy trope and an element of contemporary modernism

all integrated. Yes Mary, I just tossed that off as an example.

Mary Rosenblum

Nice one.

tenavari

Would a story incorporating 30's crime/mob and sf be slip?

or is it only confined to blending the genres of sf/f/h?

Jay Lake

tenavari -- it certainly could. In a technical sense, it already is. My judgment would fall mostly with regard to the style and tone, at that point.

the definition isn't strictly confined to sf/f/h, but wider crossovers can be tough to market

.except in romance, which has a set of genres all contained within it that parallel the broader publishing genres.

speckledorf

What do you consider a "high degree of literary sensibility"?

Jay Lake

Well, attention to details of style. For example, concise word choices, no echoed words or line 'clunks'

elegant, varied sentence structures. It's a sort of Potter Stewart thing, "I'll know it when I see it".

Examples in real life. Let's see Kevin J. Anderson, best paid writer in SF right now

friend of mine, doesn't write with a stylistic focus.

Most stories published in ANALOG are like that, for that matter,

where the idea or the character or the gadget drive the story.

On the other hand, Orson Scott Card is a master stylist.

So is the aforemention VanderMeer.

catydorr

In other words, the transition is actually established in the beginning of the piece-possibly as a part of the setting of the story--so the reader gets the feel of a fantasy right off?

Jay Lake

Well, not necessarily a fantasy, but in general *whatever* is going on in the piece needs to be established right at the beginning.

That's critical to any story, any trope or method of storytelling.

There are always exceptions, but you have to be real good before you can swack in a dragon

Jay Lake

on page 38 of a hard-boiled cyberpunk story.

Mary Rosenblum

LOL

Jay Lake

It's an excellent question

weekendwarrior

Ok.what's a line clunk?

Jay Lake

weekendwarrior, good question

That's a Jay-word, not a formal critical term (though if you haven't read the Turkey City Lexicon, go do so)

but I mean a turn of phrase that falls badly.

Recent example from critique of a story whose author shall remain nameless

"The dog lay down to stand guard"

Think about that for a minute

Mary Rosenblum

Ouch.

Jay Lake

It's a perfectly reasonable English sentence that most people won't notice anything wrong with

but you saw Mary's reaction.

I think it pained her. It sure hurt me the first time I saw it

because the author was using the idiom "stand guard" without noticing

that he'd introduced a logical contradiction.

So he could have said, "The dog settled in to stand guard"

if he'd really wanted 'stand guard' in the sentence.

Another 'clunk' is the repeated word.

Example:

"Johnnie stuck his key in the car door. As he was sliding in, he noticed someone had keyed the fender."

'key' appears twice

in two different meanings

but the echo draws attention to itself.

These kind of clunks are quite subtle (or can be) but they also mark out

an accomplished professional when they are absent.

One bit of advice: read your stories aloud to someone (or by yourself, if that makes you happy).

Most of those clunks will be obvious to your ear even if your eye misses them.

Mary Rosenblum

Just 'cause it's grammatically correct is no excuse! How about 'echo words,' Jay? Someone asked about that term, too. Is that your repeated word?

And a tape recorder will do, too.

Jay Lake

Yep, 'echo' and 'repeated word' are the same thing.

Note that 'he', 'said', 'was', etc. don't count.

That issue applies to unusual words which aren't part of the ordinary connective tissue of the sentence

writeaway

I am really new at this. What is a trope?

Jay Lake

"Trope" is a term from literary (and I think, ultimately theater) criticism, and it just means "common element or theme"

There's a bit more to it, but that should suffice as a working definition.

So for example, 'AI goes berserk' is a trope of SF.

So is time travel and the grandfather paradox.

I think the word strictly means movement, as in that of an actor across the stage.

lbaggins

These stories are written with literary style, but do they have any literary themes? Does slipstream contain the themes or structure of 1 or more genres?

Jay Lake

I think slipstream is a stylistic choice, the themes and structures can vary

but note there is no formal or consensus definition of the term.

Mary Rosenblum

One thing that I think it is important to remember when we start tossing these labels around

is that they are just thatlabelsand one reader's slipstream is another's literary fantasy.

Jay Lake

Exactly. Story is.

Mary Rosenblum

The boundaries are very subjective.

Jay Lake

Everything else is marketing categories.

roe

Is there a specific word count for Polyphony? I printed out the guidelines and it doesn't mention any.

Jay Lake

Here's the original Sterling essay to go read later.

Sterling Essay

Word count.

Our contract caps payment at 10,000 words, or $600.  We pay .06$ per word.

Though you could send something longer if you wished.

I think we state somewhere a lower limit of 2000, but we don't enforce it.

BTW, the Sterling essay is only loosely connected with the current definition of slipstream -- the debate has evolved a lot since then.

Our shortest ever published story is about 400 words I think

And our longest about 21,000

cloux

Jay, were you an editor before being a published writer? How did you get started in editing?

Jay Lake

Hah! Nice one, cloux.

I got lucky. No bones about it.

I've been writing seriously since the late 1980's.

Sold my first story in 2001

got into the editing gig in late 2001 more or less on a lark.

But POLYPHONY has gone much further than we ever expected or hoped.

I am a poster child for the million bad words theory

Mary Rosenblum

LOL

curseofthe44

You waited over 20 years to sell your first story?

Mary Rosenblum

I don't think he waited, curse. :-)

Jay Lake

Oh, maybe 15don't take hope or despair from that either one.

Mary Rosenblum

Jay, you'd better explain that million words rule.

We have some who don't know it.

Jay Lake

It took me finding a good work and submitting ethic, too.

Million bad wordsis that Delany? I don't remember right now.

Someone famous said you have to write a million bad words before you can write good ones.

In my case, I later calculated that I sold my first story, "The Courtesy of Guests", about word 850,000

and I started selling consistently around word 1,000,000.

But here's the thing:

Your work is YOUR WORKbelieve in it, practice hard, and find your voice.

It will come to you.

Don't sit up at night working up lifetime word counts on a whiteboard.

Just write, guy.

Guys

molly

Ewww, that means I have a LONG way to go!

Jay Lake

Molly

I write a short story every week

sometimes it's flash, 500 words

sometimes it's a full blown novella of 20K words or more

but the point is, like sports or foreign languages

I keep at it all the time.

That's what it takes, that and a supportive community like you guys have here to cheer success

and encourage you onward.

Mary Rosenblum

You don't make the Olympics if you only train once a month.

Jay Lake

Exactly!!!

speckledorf

When reading submissions, what is the main thing you look for?

Jay Lake

Well, I follow the three strikes rule, for the most part.

So I look for professionalism in presentation of the mss

(an icky or difficult to read mss can be a strike)

(and I pretty much ignore cover letters until after I'd read the mss)

I look for a good, strong title

coz I'm a sucker for titles

though some editors pay no attention to titles, figuring they can be changed at a whim.

Then I look for a strong hook line or paragraph.

If the mss fails on all those points, it might be rejected before I've read the first page.

If it succeeds on all those points, that buys you page one and maybe page two, if you're strong enough, the whole mss being read.

There was a story in the ZEPPELIN slush pile that hooked me so good on the first few lines

that I screamed through it, whispering, "Don't mess it up!"

Except I used a different verb

Mary Rosenblum

Okay, there you go. Taking notes, all? Can, professional manuscript, strong title, hook opening. Then a good story.

paja

How can we learn to judge if our titles are strong or weak?

Jay Lake

Uh, that's so much a matter of taste that I don't have a fair answer for it, paja.

But try them on peoplefor example

"Bill's Big Fight" isn't much of a title

but "In the Garden of Shattered Bottles" might get my attention.

Both could be about a guy in a bar fight

lbaggins

What if the title is bad but the manuscript is good? Read my manuscript first.

Mary Rosenblum

Ha, me, too, baggins. Titles are not my forte.

Jay Lake

I won't reject on a bad title alone, but it influences my reading expectations.

The key to submitting is to never give the editor a reason to reject.

So the better the title, the less reason to reject.

And a bad title on top of unprofessional mss formatting and a turkey of an opening line

--well, you're done. And if the story "gets good on page 4" (which I've heard a million times)

then START THE STORY ON PAGE 4!!!!!

;-)

Mary Rosenblum

What are your slush numbers like, Jay? What kind of volume do you get?

Jay Lake

Polyphony 3 and 4 got about 500 subs each.

We accepted 15-20 out of each.

ZEPPELIN got 250 subs.

Same acceptance number."

Hard truth:

Mary Rosenblum

Better numbers than say, Asimov’s or Analog.

Jay Lake

New writers, without established names, are competing for a few of the slots in any market.

Yes, Mary, better than ASI, which I think gets 2,000 slush a month.

Mary Rosenblum

Yep.

Jay Lake

And buys 0-1 from new writers.

paja

Jay, I've learned so much from you tonight, especially in terms and conseptsthank you. Your weekly stories: do you submit each one?

Jay Lake

Paja, you're welcome.

No, I don't submit each one.

When I started that practice, I gave myself permission to write 50% stinkers

25% salvageable

and 25% decent to good.

My actual ratio turned out to be 25/50/25

and it has improved over time

but 10-15% of what I write still goes in a dark hole

and another 25% winds up in rewrite heck.

One advantage to writing a lot

is that no one story has to be especially good.

You'll find quality in the practice

not in the eyestrain over one piece for weeks or month.

That's Jay philosophy, not Received Wisdom.

speckledorf

I noticed that you have used stories from several authors in more than one anthology. Do you prefer to work with writers you know, or do you like to discover new ones?

Jay Lake

Both.

Some writers I like so much I want to see more from them

though we can be pretty ruthless about rejecting.

.Kris Rusch talks about rejecting Ray Bradbury when she was editing F&SF, wow!)

but I really, really love discovering new talent.

That story I mentioned at ZEP?

It was by a guy I'd never heard of.

Turned out to be his first sale.

I'll bet he gets an HM nod in a Year's Best or two, at least.

It was so good..

curseofthe44

And did you say that Polyphony prints only one new writer?

Jay Lake

No, we reserve one slot for a new writer.

P1 had two new writers

and I think P3 did.

jSo it's AT LEAST one, not ONLY one.

;-)

Mary Rosenblum

At least one is one more slot than most mags have.

lbaggins

Are these stories written for entertainment or impact mainly?

Jay Lake

Deb and I are both so new as writers that we vividly remember the feeling of trying to break in.

lbaggins -- whose stories are you talking about? Mine?

Mary Rosenblum

Polyphony, I think.

Jay Lake

Well, I can't say why those stories were written.

I didn't write them!

But I firmly believe stories are like children.

You raise 'em right, teach 'em manners, dress 'em up and send 'em out in the world.

After that they're on their own, and it doesn't matter what you intended.

Mary Rosenblum

Well, what are YOU looking for in a story, Jay? What is 'good' for you?

As an editor.

Jay Lake

In no particular orderblazing good style, sensawunda/gosh-wow, a clever hook or idea

something fresh I haven't seen before or a new take on something shopworn

something that appeals to my taste, I suppose.

How's that for a weak answer?

;-p

Mary Rosenblum

Well, it's the bottom linewhat the editor likes. :-)

writeaway

What don't you want to see?

Jay Lake